'Speaking in Tongues', true vs false.

[tdidymas]

I exercise my gift of praying in tongues everyday.

It’s part of my prayer time.


Maybe you mean because you refuse the gift it must be false?


Like the Pharisees who blasphemed the Holy Spirit, calling the Spirit by which Jesus operated, Beelzebub, I suspect many are doing the same thing today.


Please don’t let your denominational teaching led you down the path of destruction.




JLB

Destruction? Is this your judgment of where ETB is going?

Claiming that the modern day glossolalia is of the Holy Spirit, and therefore anyone who denies it is of the Spirit is blaspheming, is problematic. "Blasphemy" is the cry of every person who cannot intelligently or Biblically answer the objections of people who don't believe in what they affirm. It's an indication that a sacred cow is worshipped.

It just appears to me that your responses are more on the side of personal attacks than on the side of Biblical reasoning. But just because you practice that Pentecostal tradition and believe in it, doesn't make it true. There has been an objection to modern day tongues which you disagree with, so it's your responsibility now to reasonably provide Biblical interpretation to explain your position, and that with respect, and not with implied judgments.

Here are some facts I would like to bring out:
1. It is quite impossible to prove that modern day tongues is miraculous. At no time has a tongue talker shown that his "language" was understood by anyone, whether it be someone knowing the language, or someone receiving a miraculous interpretation.
2. The interpretations of tongues given today are not shown to be miraculous orations, but only a pretense of them.
3. Tongues of today are not languages, as they never have enough vocabulary or structure to convey any message.
4. Tongues of today is a natural human phenomenon, since it has been proven that anyone can do it if they really try.
5. Many religious sects perform glossolalia in the same manner as the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement, including those among Hindus, Muslims, and occult religions. This activity is not new, since hundreds of years BC the Greeks believed that a person speaking it was speaking oracles of the gods.

So, just because someone can't understand what the tongue-talker is saying doesn't prove that it's from God. In Acts 2, the crowd knew it was from God because they understood the message (except the sinful unbelieving attitude of some drove them to mock it). So, 3000 people became believers that day. Quite unlike the fruit of modern day tongues.
TD

 

[JLB]

Destruction? Is this your judgment of where ETB is going?

Claiming that the modern day glossolalia is of the Holy Spirit, and therefore anyone who denies it is of the Spirit is blaspheming, is problematic.

Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is definitely going to be problematic.

If a person is speaking or operating by the Spirit through someone, and another person ignorantly calls the Spirit by which they are operating, the devil, then that is blasphemy of the Spirit.

Calling the Holy Spirit the Devil is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

It’s exactly what the Pharisee’s did to Jesus.



JLB

 

[JLB]

But just because you practice that Pentecostal tradition and believe in it, doesn't make it true.

Its true and biblical.

If you choose not to receive the Spirit, then that is your choice.

If you want to call the Spirit in me the devil, then that is your choice, also.


JLB

 

[JLB]

So, just because someone can't understand what the tongue-talker is saying doesn't prove that it's from God. In Acts 2, the crowd knew it was from God because they understood the message (except the sinful unbelieving attitude of some drove them to mock it). So, 3000 people became believers that day. Quite unlike the fruit of modern day tongues.
TD

How can their be a counterfeit of something that is not real?



JLB

 

[tdidymas]

Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is definitely going to be problematic.

If a person is speaking or operating by the Spirit through someone, and another person ignorantly calls the Spirit by which they are operating, the devil, then that is blasphemy of the Spirit.

Calling the Holy Spirit the Devil is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

It’s exactly what the Pharisee’s did to Jesus.



JLB

1. Modern day glossolalia is not Biblical tongues, and not by the Spirit, since it is a fleshly phenomenon.
2. Who is calling the Holy Spirit the devil (is this just your exaggerative slander)?
3. You apparently didn't understand my statement, since you are continuing to do the same.

So, how do you know that you aren't blaspheming the Spirit, if you claim that what you're doing is of the Spirit, if indeed what I say is true about it, that it's a fleshly phenomenon?

"The Spirit is the truth," therefore it begs the question what is the truth in this matter.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Its true and biblical.

If you choose not to receive the Spirit, then that is your choice.

If you want to call the Spirit in me the devil, then that is your choice, also.


JLB

Well, that's a big "if." When I said that typical modern day tongues is a natural human phenomenon, do you think I am saying that you have a devil (in your assessment)?
TD

 

[OzSpen]

The tongues of Acts 2 and 1 Cor 14 are the same, known earthly languages.
1 Cor 14:12 "Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church."
1 Cor 14:13 "Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret."
1 Cor 14:14 "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful."


A purpose of the gifts, as tongues, was to edify the church, v13. Per my last post, for edification to happen the hearer must understand what is being said else the tongue speaker is speaking to the air, is as a barbarian to the hearer and there is no edification taking place.

If the speaker is speaking in a language the hearer does not understand, then it should be interpreted so the hearers can understand and edification take place. If I was suddenly able to miraculously speak Chinese but my hearers do not understand Chinese then I (or someone else) should interpret what I am saying into a language the hearers can understand.

1 Cor 14:27 "If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret."
1 Cor 14:28 "But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God."

If no one can interpret the language being spoken then the speaker is to keep silent. If the Chinese I am speaking cannot be interpreted by anyone then I would have to keep silent.

Those today who claim to speak in a tongue (ecstatic utterances) do not have interpreters but they do not keep silent.
1 Cor 14:23 those Corinthians thought their uncontrolled tongue speaking was great, but if the hearer did not understand Paul told the Corinthians they would appear as mad to the hearer. Thus were to keep silent if there is no interpreter.


"if there be no interpreter"-implying that the tongue-speakers were required to know ahead of time if an interpreter was present. This demands that tongue-speaking wasn"t a gift that "overwhelmed" one. Neither was it something that couldn"t be predicted. The tongue-speaker could speak in tongues whenever he wanted! The gift could be exercised at will. So don't let any so-called tongue-speaker today weasle out of "proving their gift", by the excuse that "they just don"t know when the Spirit is going to move them."

"let him keep silence in the church"-"Clearly, then, the tongue-speaker wasn"t "overwhelmed" by the Spirit. Not only was the prophet in control of himself (32), the tongue-speaker was too." (McGuiggan p. 184)

Remember this verse when someone says, "The Spirit is moving me and I can"t help myself." Notice also. In those whole discussion on spiritual gifts, nothing is said about the Corinthians "rolling on the floor, going into convulsions, fainting, passing out, yelling, jumping up and down, or clapping hands." Evidently, some Charismatic groups are prone to worse abuses in the assembly, than even the Corinthians!" Dunagan Commenatary. (my emp)

Those today claiming to do miraculous sign should be able to perform those signs at will anytime they desire under control. On occasions I asked them to perform, to exercise their gift but they refused, came up with all the excuses in the world. One guy claimed he could heal the sick and raise the dead. I offered to, at my expense, to come to the local hospital where I am and exercise his gift, to relieve the pain suffer and heartbreak but refused to, made up all excuses he could. He seemed to be able to exercise his gift when no one was around to see then make claims he had healed people.

Ernest,

I note that you included 1 Cor 14:12-14. Do you understand the meaning in context of what you excluded?

There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me (1 Cor 14:10-11 ESV).​

You cited vv 13-14:

Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful (1 Cor 14:13-14 ESV).​

'Interpretation' is not 'translation'. A person who prays in tongues prays by his/her spirit and the mind is 'unfruitful'. If a person speaks in a human language, he/she uses a mind that is 'fruitful' in that language.

I find you are getting tongue-tired with your discussion of the gifts because your view doesn't line up with a consistent interpretation of Scripture.

Oz

 

[tdidymas]

How can their be a counterfeit of something that is not real?



JLB

Jesus said in the last days there would be such a great deception that even the elect would be deceived, if that were possible. How do you know that what you practice is not part of that deception? Just because you have an experience that you attribute to God doesn't make that true. How do you know that what you practice is not a counterfeit of Biblical tongues? Just because you claim you know, doesn't make it true. It begs the question what is the truth of the matter. My opinion cited above is based on both experience and research. When I was young, immature, and ignorant, I assumed that what people said was of God was true. I've subsequently found differently. And here I'm simply (and respectfully) objecting to your response above. Can you refute any of the facts I cited, without all the religious slamming?
TD

 

[OzSpen]

See the end of my last post to OzSpen. I have give these fake miracles workers opportunity silence me and exercise their gift...a "put up or shut up" type proposition. They all 100% 'shut up'

If there were no genuine miracles, there would be nothing to fake. Of course you will find the genuine among the fakes. It's been like that since the beginning of time:

• “If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods’, which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them’, 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil[a] from your midst (Deut 13:1-5 ESV).
• 'For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect' (Matt 24:24 ESV).
• 'And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray' (Matt 24:11 ESV).
• 'Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already' (1 John 4:1-3 ESV).

That's the responsibility of Christians today to 'test that spirits to see whether they are from God'. Expect to find the fake and the genuine in all kinds of churches.

This is the situation the disciples faced and it is the same for us today: 'I am sending you out like sheep surrounded by wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves' (Matt 10:16 NET).

Oz

 

[JLB]

Modern day glossolalia is not Biblical tongues, and not by the Spirit, since it is a fleshly phenomenon.

That is your opinion and is unbiblical.

 

[JLB]

Jesus said in the last days there would be such a great deception that even the elect would be deceived, if that were possible.

Amen.


The Lord said in the last days would pour out His Spirit on all flesh.


‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
Acts 2:17-18


Does anyone in your Church prophesy, see visions, dream dreams from the Lord?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Who is calling the Holy Spirit the devil (is this just your exaggerative slander)?

When a person calls the Holy Spirit who is moving upon someone with the gifts of the Spirit, the Devil, then they are speaking against the Holy Spirit.

This is called blasphemy of the Spirit.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Well, that's a big "if." When I said that typical modern day tongues is a natural human phenomenon, do you think I am saying that you have a devil (in your assessment)?
TD

If you call the Holy Spirit, the Devil, then you are blaspheming the Holy Spirit.


Very simple.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Here are some facts I would like to bring out:
1. It is quite impossible to prove that modern day tongues is miraculous. At no time has a tongue talker shown that his "language" was understood by anyone, whether it be someone knowing the language, or someone receiving a miraculous interpretation.
2. The interpretations of tongues given today are not shown to be miraculous orations, but only a pretense of them.
3. Tongues of today are not languages, as they never have enough vocabulary or structure to convey any message.
4. Tongues of today is a natural human phenomenon, since it has been proven that anyone can do it if they really try.
5. Many religious sects perform glossolalia in the same manner as the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement, including those among Hindus, Muslims, and occult religions. This activity is not new, since hundreds of years BC the Greeks believed that a person speaking it was speaking oracles of the gods.

These certainly are not facts. Just your made up opinion.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus said in the last days there would be such a great deception that even the elect would be deceived, if that were possible. How do you know that what you practice is not part of that deception? Just because you have an experience that you attribute to God doesn't make that true. How do you know that what you practice is not a counterfeit of Biblical tongues? Just because you claim you know, doesn't make it true. It begs the question what is the truth of the matter. My opinion cited above is based on both experience and research. When I was young, immature, and ignorant, I assumed that what people said was of God was true. I've subsequently found differently. And here I'm simply (and respectfully) objecting to your response above. Can you refute any of the facts I cited, without all the religious slamming?
TD

Here is what Jesus said about the signs that follow believers.

Words of Christ in red —

Here is the truth.


And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Mark 16:15-18

• they will speak with new tongues;

Do any of these signs follow you?




JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I exercise my gift of praying in tongues everyday.

It’s part of my prayer time.


Maybe you mean because you refuse the gift it must be false?


Like the Pharisees who blasphemed the Holy Spirit, calling the Spirit by which Jesus operated, Beelzebub, I suspect many are doing the same thing today.


Please don’t let your denominational teaching led you down the path of destruction.




JLB

Gift of tongue speaking does not exist today, just as baptism with the Holy Spirit does not exist today.
No one today speaks in tongues as they did in the Bible. Tongue speaking in the Bible was NOT 'ecstatic utterances' but was speaking in known earthly languages that the speaker formerly did not know in order to take the gospel to the world, take the gospel to people that spoke a different language then the preacher of the gospel.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest,

I note that you included 1 Cor 14:12-14. Do you understand the meaning in context of what you excluded?

There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me (1 Cor 14:10-11 ESV).​

You cited vv 13-14:

Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful (1 Cor 14:13-14 ESV).​

'Interpretation' is not 'translation'. A person who prays in tongues prays by his/her spirit and the mind is 'unfruitful'. If a person speaks in a human language, he/she uses a mind that is 'fruitful' in that language.

I find you are getting tongue-tired with your discussion of the gifts because your view doesn't line up with a consistent interpretation of Scripture.

Oz

If I could suddenly speak in Chinese then it must be interpreted or translated to where the hearer can understand, else I am speaking to the air, blowing a trumpet that is not understood, be as a barbarian to those that do not understand what I am saying therefore no edification takes place. Paul therefore is clearly talking about know earthly languages in 1 Cor 14. Tongue speaking in the Bible was not nonsensical, nonunderstandable jibberish.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Here is what Jesus said about the signs that follow believers.

Words of Christ in red —

Here is the truth.


And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Mark 16:15-18

• they will speak with new tongues;

Do any of these signs follow you?




JLB

--how were the Apostles or anyone else take the gospel to the world if they could not speak the various UNDERSTANDABLE languages of the world??? The 'ecstatic utterance' are useless menaingless do not cannot teach nor edify anyone.

--in the context of Mark 16 it was the Apostles who were the unbelievers (Mk 16:11,13). When Jesus arrives He upbraided the Apostles for their unbelief (Mk 16:14). In Mk 16:15-16 Jesus gives them the great commission.

Then in Mk 16:17 "Jesus says "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;"
Who was the unbelievers in this context? Apostles. So them of the Apostles that believe would have the various signs. If the Aposltes continued to not believe they could not carry out the great commission nor have these signs needed to confirm the word (Mk 16:20).

The nearest plural antecedent of the plural pronoun "them" of v17 is "the eleven: of verse 14. Reading verses 19-20 it is obvious the pronouns refer to the Apostles. Hence these signs would go to the Apostles that believe, not to each and every person that believes.

--2 Cor 12:12 Paul referred to them as "signs of an Apostles" because they were given to the Apostles. In the first few chapters of Acts it was the Apostles performing these signs. Not until later in Acts 8 the Apostles could lay their hands upon another and pass to that person an Apostolic gift. But that person was not able to pass it to another.

--1 Cor 12:29-30 NASB "All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?" Even in the first century when Christians possessed sign not all Christians has all the signs mention in Mk 16:17-18. All did not speak in tongues, all did not have all the signs mentioned in Mk 16:17-18, some had NO SIGN AT ALL!!

 

[JLB]

Gift of tongue speaking does not exist today, just as baptism with the Holy Spirit does not exist today.

Your opinion is noted.

 

[JLB]

how were the Apostles or anyone else take the gospel to the world if they could not speak the various UNDERSTANDABLE languages of the world??? The 'ecstatic utterance' are useless menaingless do not cannot teach nor edify anyone.

How is anyone today supposed to be a witness for Christ without the power of the Holy Spirit.


But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” Acts 1:8


Without healings and casting out devils, when witnessing for Christ in third world countries especially Africa and Haiti and nations that are bound by witchcraft and voodoo, a person will be ineffective at best at bringing people to Christ.

But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great, to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the great power of God.” And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time. But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
Acts 8:9-13


And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Mark 16:15-18

• these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;

These are signs that follow believers.



JLB