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T.U.L.I.P. - Irresistible Grace

JLB said:
Until they are shown what the words actually mean.



JLB
Click to expand...
I just can't do that....
Unless it's really important....
The N.T. is full of concepts for me...
words are just used to convey that concept.

You know that I like to read what the ECFs believed...
NOT ANY PARTICULAR ONE !
But as a group, it seems important to me to know what they were taught by the APOSTLES themselves. They DID NOT believe in eternal security. They DID NOT believe in predestination.

We have a couple of mods right here on this site that believe this debate of eternal security has been going on since the beginning...this is not true....in the beginning it was NOT believed.

I agree that the reformation had to happen,,,but it also changed a lot which should NOT have been changed...

This is a thread....
 
JLB said:
Please explain what it is that you disagree with about this statement.

The doctrine of Christ is found in the New Testament.

JLB
Click to expand...

Which statement?
 
wondering said:
I just can't do that....
Unless it's really important....
The N.T. is full of concepts for me...
words are just used to convey that concept.

You know that I like to read what the ECFs believed...
NOT ANY PARTICULAR ONE !
But as a group, it seems important to me to know what they were taught by the APOSTLES themselves. They DID NOT believe in eternal security. They DID NOT believe in predestination.

We have a couple of mods right here on this site that believe this debate of eternal security has been going on since the beginning...this is not true....in the beginning it was NOT believed.

I agree that the reformation had to happen,,,but it also changed a lot which should NOT have been changed...

This is a thread....
Click to expand...

wondering,

I searched the ECF for statements about eternal security. You can read what I found in:
Why is eternal security such a touchy subject?

I'm not discussing eternal security with this post but showing an exposition where I researched the ECF on this topic.

Oz
 
JLB said:
Until finally they become lost and return to a life of sin, and the devil convinces them they were never saved to begin with because they were never predestined to be saved.

They become bitter and resentful and end up hating God and hating Christians.


Ex Christian.net is filled with such people.




JLB
Click to expand...
I find this situation, of people resenting God.
Sin destroys those it touches.

I watched a film about a mafia boss. He lived the high life for 20 years, with lots of violence and drugs. He then spent 20 years in prison, deprived of everything he held dear. It was not worth it, and what he thought he gained he lost it all.

Sin is always the problem, love and the walk of meekness is the solution.
A rich man walks into a garage full of cars they own. They never drive them but knowing they have this garage full of rare cars fills them full of achievement.

But this is absurd. Ownership in this sense is only in the mind, because I walking by this garage can have exactly the same feeling. So a rich man and a poor man can be measured in how they interact and the value they give things, rather than the legal side of ownership. So Jesus who seemed to own nothing was rich because He had the Kingdom and all that goes with it. And each difficult situation in the Lord has its answer which is perfect, literally, while in the world it is often hurt and loss, anger and fighting.

Ex-christians are an odd bunch. They define themselves by something they reject rather than by something they embrace.
 
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OzSpen said:
wondering,

I searched the ECF for statements about eternal security. You can read what I found in:
Why is eternal security such a touchy subject?

I'm not discussing eternal security with this post but showing an exposition where I researched the ECF on this topic.

Oz
Click to expand...
Not to derail but this was very interesting:

Why do the conclusions of New Testament scholars differ so widely? Anyone who begins to read books about the New Testament soon becomes aware that competent scholars defend with equal vigour and sincerity widely differing approaches to the New Testament. The variety of viewpoints often causes great perplexity both to theological students and to the church at large…. The presuppositions adopted either consciously or unconsciously by the interpreter are far more influential in New Testament scholarship than disagreements over method (Stanton 1977:60)
Click to expand...
If it is not possible for a person to lay aside his or her presuppositions, Stanton recommends three safeguards:

(a) The interpreter who is aware of the danger of not laying aside the person’s assumptions is more likely to avoid this problem.

(b) Use the historical, critical method. This will help rule out fanciful, allegorical [and postmodern][8] interpretations.

(c) ‘The third safeguard is even more important. The interpreter must allow his own presuppositions and his own pre-understanding to be modified or even completely reshaped by the text itself. Unless this is allowed to happen, the interpreter will be unable to avoid projecting his own ideas on to the text’ (Stanton 1977:68).

And I think JLB will be interested in this:

What can we conclude from these church fathers about Judas’s destiny? He was once a child of the kingdom (Chrysostom) and then was damned after Satan entered him and he betrayed Jesus. Movement from being chosen as a disciple of Jesus to being a ‘son of perdition’ is a demonstration that these church fathers saw a falling away from grace.

The entire article is very interesting...
Here's the link again for those interested....



P.S. I accept the ECFs as being those that came before, or immediately after, 325 AD.

P.P.S. The article does confirm that the ECFs did NOT believe in eternal salvation.
 
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atpollard said:
R.C. Sproul is one of the leading ‘Calvinist’ theologians of the 20th Century (He just died recently). So the explanation from Ligonier Ministries is as “Calvinist” of an explanation as you are going to find. That IS what Calvinists believe ... which is why we are so passionate in our denials when people claim we really mean something else.
Click to expand...
i am not against calvinism but i dont agree with the doctrine on salvation . but i must say in carm forum i have run across some that are pretty dogmatic . just real close to the point they are the only ones right. the plan of salvation is freely given freely received
 
wondering said:
Not to derail but this was very interesting:


If it is not possible for a person to lay aside his or her presuppositions, Stanton recommends three safeguards:

(a) The interpreter who is aware of the danger of not laying aside the person’s assumptions is more likely to avoid this problem.

(b) Use the historical, critical method. This will help rule out fanciful, allegorical [and postmodern][8] interpretations.

(c) ‘The third safeguard is even more important. The interpreter must allow his own presuppositions and his own pre-understanding to be modified or even completely reshaped by the text itself. Unless this is allowed to happen, the interpreter will be unable to avoid projecting his own ideas on to the text’ (Stanton 1977:68).

And I think JLB will be interested in this:

What can we conclude from these church fathers about Judas’s destiny? He was once a child of the kingdom (Chrysostom) and then was damned after Satan entered him and he betrayed Jesus. Movement from being chosen as a disciple of Jesus to being a ‘son of perdition’ is a demonstration that these church fathers saw a falling away from grace.

The entire article is very interesting...
Here's the link again for those interested....



P.S. I accept the ECFs as being those that came before, or immediately after, 325 AD.

P.P.S. The article does confirm that the ECFs did NOT believe in eternal salvation.
Click to expand...
so much for that rule it has just been discussed
 
OzSpen said:
atp,

Why did you plagiarise this information from this website: https://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?t=360? You have stolen this material from another website by not giving credit to the author.

Do you read NT Greek and do you know Greek grammar and syntax?

Oz
Click to expand...
  1. I did not plagiarize it from that website, and even a casual reading of that website indicates that it is NOT the original source of the information.
  2. I placed the information in quotes to indicate that it was a quote, so that it was not my original work should have been self-evident.
  3. The source gave no original source for the information, it was presented as a general reference information ... like an encyclopedia entry or a table of square roots in an engineering book. It would have been pointless to list the source since they made no claim to being the author and it would have been too much effort to track down their reference source. When one offers the dictionary definition of a word without identifying exactly which dictionary it came from, few would view that as an attempt to pass off that definition as original work. This was no different.

So what exact point are you trying to make?
Are you a linguist fluent in Koine Greek who should be offering informed input rather than sweeping criticism and innuendo?
Have I misrepresented the text in question, is there some doubt (based on Greek verb parsing) whether those Predestined will or will not be Called?

You have made false accusations against me and your posts appear to serve no function but to stir up strife. I think I will take the advice of 1 Timothy 6:11 and have nothing more to do with your seeds of mischief.
 
atpollard said:
Actually, I am Reformed Baptist and Sproul was Presbyterian. There is no “Calvinist” Church or denomination.
Click to expand...
Uffa.
Are you going to actually answer my post?
I know what you are,,,you've explained it.
Not easy to remember everything though.

Reformed means calvinist...sorry if you don't like the "expression".
Presbytarian means calvinist ----- ditto.

I don't enjoy speaking about words....
call yourself what you like and I apologize for misrepresenting you...

I'm called an arminian and I don't even know what Arminius believed,,,and I don't really care to know.

I speak about SPECIFICS in my posts...so could we concentrate on those?

'night
Tomorrow
 
wondering said:
John 5:40
And you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.
Click to expand...

Everyone is unwilling, remember:
  • [Rom 3:10-11 NASB] 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

At least until GOD does something about it:
  • [Eze 11:19 NASB] 19 "And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,
  • [Eze 36:26 NASB] 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
  • [Jhn 6:37-39 NASB] 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
  • [Jhn 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
  • [Jhn 10:29 NASB] 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.
  • [Act 16:14 NASB] 14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
  • [Eph 2:4-5 NASB] 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
  • [Eph 2:8 NASB] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;
 
wondering said:
John 5:46
For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote of Me.

Again, Jesus says that the pharisees did not believe...making belief a free will choice.
Click to expand...

Or not ...
  • [Jhn 10:25-26 NASB] 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
  • [1Co 2:14 NASB] 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
  • [2Co 4:3-4 NASB] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
  • [Rom 8:5-8 NASB] 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so,] 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
 
atpollard said:
  1. I did not plagiarize it from that website, and even a casual reading of that website indicates that it is NOT the original source of the information.
  2. I placed the information in quotes to indicate that it was a quote, so that it was not my original work should have been self-evident.
  3. The source gave no original source for the information, it was presented as a general reference information ... like an encyclopedia entry or a table of square roots in an engineering book. It would have been pointless to list the source since they made no claim to being the author and it would have been too much effort to track down their reference source. When one offers the dictionary definition of a word without identifying exactly which dictionary it came from, few would view that as an attempt to pass off that definition as original work. This was no different.

So what exact point are you trying to make?
Are you a linguist fluent in Koine Greek who should be offering informed input rather than sweeping criticism and innuendo?
Have I misrepresented the text in question, is there some doubt (based on Greek verb parsing) whether those Predestined will or will not be Called?

You have made false accusations against me and your posts appear to serve no function but to stir up strife. I think I will take the advice of 1 Timothy 6:11 and have nothing more to do with your seeds of mischief.
Click to expand...

atp,

You plagiarised a citation from that website by not giving credit to your source.

I read and have taught Koine Greek. I'm retired now but know Greek grammar and syntax, having a PhD in NT. Are they good enough qualifications??

You are ducking and weaving now.

Oz
 
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