The Catholic Church.

[Fastfredy0]

You mean like so many Protestant churches have done too?

Man has a tendency to 'screw things up'. I wonder why that is.

 

[Adoration]

You mean like so many Protestant churches have done too?

I should have known better than to comment on this thread... Forgive me.

 

[WIP]

I should have known better than to comment on this thread... Forgive me.

We must be careful not to think more highly of ourselves than we ought. Too often due to the division and animosity puffed up charges and accusations seem to fly around from all sides - Catholics vs Protestants, Eastern Orthodox vs Roman Catholic, Protestant denomination vs Protestant denomination, and so forth. We look for opportunities to puff up our own chests with pride, thinking to ourselves, "I won that one!" I see it all the time on this website.

Is Christ divided? It sure seems like it today for it appears we have divided Him to fit our own purposes.

 

[Adoration]

We must be careful not to think more highly of ourselves than we ought. Too often due to the division and animosity puffed up charges and accusations seem to fly around from all sides - Catholics vs Protestants, Eastern Orthodox vs Roman Catholic, Protestant denomination vs Protestant denomination, and so forth. We look for opportunities to puff up our own chests with pride, thinking to ourselves, "I won that one!" I see it all the time on this website.

I am a former Catholic of many years... and again... I apologize for commenting on this thread. This is not about winning... It is about sound biblical doctrine... but I will in future refrain from commenting on the threads about Catholicism.

 

[Walpole]

We must be careful not to think more highly of ourselves than we ought. Too often due to the division and animosity puffed up charges and accusations seem to fly around from all sides - Catholics vs Protestants, Eastern Orthodox vs Roman Catholic, Protestant denomination vs Protestant denomination, and so forth. We look for opportunities to puff up our own chests with pride, thinking to ourselves, "I won that one!" I see it all the time on this website.

Is Christ divided? It sure seems like it today for it appears we have divided Him to fit our own purposes.

I'll change directions here since it was never my intention to be divisive.

How can Catholics and Protestants work together to help preserve their faith in a culture which is so opposed to Christianity? What assistance do families need to help raise their children in the faith?

 

[for_his_glory]

You gave a defense of soul sleep here ---> https://christianforums.net/threads/the-catholic-church.87237/post-1632654

The very definition of soul sleep is your statement here ---> "Everyone that has ever died is asleep in their grave and when Christ returns they will hear His voice as He calls all of them to come forth."

Gave no defense for the false teaching of soul sleep, but only explaining that no one, not even Mary, has ascended up to heaven. You and Rollo Tamasi only made an assumption that was what I was saying. Please never assume anything reading into things that were not said.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

1Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Thess 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Gave no defense for the false teaching of soul sleep, but only explaining that no one, not even Mary, has ascended up to heaven. You and Rollo Tamasi only made an assumption that was what I was saying. Please never assume anything reading into things that were not said.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

1Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Thess 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another

What I said was my opinion.
Is that not allowed anymore under this new regime?
You took it as a personal attack.
Don't blame me for your insecurities.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Going back to the OP, it seemed to be more about miracles and the belief thereof more than anything else.
Miracles are a belief of Christianity.
Jesus is the center of Christianity and all his miracles were at the center of his ministry.
There are those that need proof of a miracle.
The catholic church has a method of determining what is a miracle and what is not.
But the true miracle is in the heart and soul of the believer.
Therefore, if you do not believe in Jesus, it is highly unlikely you will ever believe in a miracle.
The Apostle John said in John 21:25; "Jesus did many other things as well. If everyone of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written".

That's a whole lotta miracles.

Some people think that even becoming born again is a miracle.
I believe it is.
Even the angels in heaven marvel at these things.

But there are those that need to put it together in a neat package before it is exceptable.
These people marvel at themselves and not God.

 

[for_his_glory]

Prayers of the Body of Christ include those in heaven. Here is David...

"Praise the Lord, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will." (Psalm 103:21)

"Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord from the heavens; praise him in the heights above. Praise him, all his angels; praise him, all his heavenly hosts." (Psalm 148:1-2)


Here is our Blessed Lord again...

"I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it? And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, 'Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.' Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth." - Luke 15:7-10


This is the Communion of Saints.

Psa 103:20, 21 and Psalms 148:1,2 David is speaking about the angels in heaven as they are the host of heaven and the ministers of God in heaven. The same as the angels in Luke 2:12-15; Luke 15:7-10 and Hebrews 1:14.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Nowhere in those scriptures say anything about the host of heaven being humans, but only angels as Jesus said none have ever ascended up to heaven. It's only the traditional doctrines of man that tries to read into the word of God, but never take the time to read what has already been written.

The communion of saints (those who are in Christ and He in them) is the spiritual union of the body of Christ both the living and the dead as Christ being the head of the body that has many members.

 

[for_his_glory]

I think the poster / admin person just didn't want to be challenged for advocating soul sleep, apparently unaware they were doing so. You can scroll up and see their post. Instead of trying to explain how their position was distinguishable from soul sleep, he / she chose to just delete posts which pointed out it was indistinguishable.

no, I asked you to start a new thread if you wanted to discuss this further as I did not want to derail this thread, but you are not interested so please get back to the OP as this is enough.

 

[for_his_glory]

You mean like so many Protestant churches have done too?

Yes it happens in both Catholic and Protestant. Thank God I am neither, but only a humbled servant of the Lord.

 

[for_his_glory]

Agreed. The Catholic church is guilty of adding all kinds of ideas and rituals to Christianity... because it serves their purpose. Sadly... many do not see this institution for what it is... not to mention all the abuse that has been perpetrated upon the innocent.

Not only the Catholic Church, but many denominations/non-denominations as everyone wants to be politically correct, yet denying the Doctrines of Christ for what God had the Prophets and Apostles to write.

 

[for_his_glory]

I think the poster / admin person just didn't want to be challenged for advocating soul sleep, apparently unaware they were doing so. You can scroll up and see their post. Instead of trying to explain how their position was distinguishable from soul sleep, he / she chose to just delete posts which pointed out it was indistinguishable.

Did you receive the notifications I sent you?

 

[for_his_glory]

I'll change directions here since it was never my intention to be divisive.

How can Catholics and Protestants work together to help preserve their faith in a culture which is so opposed to Christianity? What assistance do families need to help raise their children in the faith?

Simple as by believing in what Jesus already taught us without adding to or taking away from that which has already been written. Our faith does not come from whatever a church teaches, but by the grace of God who has given that free gift of faith the is Christ Jesus.

 

[for_his_glory]

What I said was my opinion.
Is that not allowed anymore under this new regime?
You took it as a personal attack.
Don't blame me for your insecurities.

Then please state it is your opinion so we can discuss in a civil manner.
You should have said, IMO I think she is talking about soul sleep, instead of just reply with soul sleep. That clears up any confusions.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Simple as by believing in what Jesus already taught us

This is the crux of the difference between the R.C. church and the protestants. The source of what Jesus (God) taught us varies. Until there is agreement on the source of revelation, we are wasting our time as we are using different rule books.

Premise 1: There has been 500 years of disagreement between protestants and R.C.
Conclusion: We are wasting our time.

Aside: Iron dulls iron ... two cannot walk together unless they are agreed

 

[for_his_glory]

This is the crux of the difference between the R.C. church and the protestants. The source of what Jesus (God) taught us varies. Until there is agreement on the source of revelation, we are wasting our time as we are using different rule books.

Premise 1: There has been 500 years of disagreement between protestants and R.C.
Conclusion: We are wasting our time.

Aside: Iron dulls iron ... two cannot walk together unless they are agreed

I disagree with this as every religion has their own beliefs in how they allow themselves to be taught. The Apocrypha, which I do have in my Jerusalem Bible can teach us much. We have to remember it was mans decision what books to add to the Bible as we will never come into the full knowledge, but only know in part.

It's just like the difference between John Calvin, John Wesley, Martin Luther, Joseph Smith, Charles Russell and the list goes on as they teach from man's theories making up their own doctrines that are separate from the doctrines of Christ. Is it not up to each of us to study to show ourselves approved of God rightly dividing the word of God?

 

[GodsGrace]

I am a former Catholic of many years... and again... I apologize for commenting on this thread. This is not about winning... It is about sound biblical doctrine... but I will in future refrain from commenting on the threads about Catholicism.

Hi Adoration
You're new here.
You could comment if it's done with love and respect. I am also a former catholic, but I see value in the CC.
Neither teaching is perfect, each has it's good and bad points.
Maybe speaking about the pros and cons of each could help to understand each other better?

 

[Fastfredy0]

I disagree with this as every religion has their own beliefs in how they allow themselves to be taught.

I stated that the infallible source of God's word is the crux of disagreement among the R.C. church and protestants. How can you disagree with that? (I did not say any individual is an infallible source of God's word.)

Premise 1: Protestants use 66 books of bible to determine God's word
Premise 2: R.C. church use 66 books and tradition and apocrypha to determine God's word
Conclusion: This is the major reason of disagreement between protestants and R.C.s as they don't have the same understanding of what God's instructions are.

Aside: I grant that there are other reasons for disagreement. But this is 'a' if not 'the' main reason for disagreement and the thesis of my previous post.

We have to remember it was mans decision what books to add to the Bible

There are theories that agree with your statement. The R.C. Church agrees with your statement for example as they believe God appointed them to so decide. Some protestants is the 'evidentiary model'. There is a theory that disagrees with this statement. The theory basically says that God caused man to determine the books of the bible.
The self-authenticating model finds fault with other models in that they find authority in something outside the canon itself for how a can standard that is not the ultimate authority determine the ultimate authority of the scriptures. For example the evidentiary model is a man-made construction. Self-authenticating does not mean the Bible says it is the word of God; rather, it has divine qualities that sets the terms for its own validation … similarly, when God swears by the ultimate authority He swears by Himself. This is not a proof to the non-Christian but a justification of belief to the Christian. This is not a circular argument, for when God authorizes a book then there is no higher authority to go to. Author Unknown
The Westminster Confession Chapter 1.V supports the self-authenticating model

The Apocrypha, which I do have in my Jerusalem Bible can teach us much.

"Alice in Wonderland" and "Little Women" can teach us much. The crux of the matter is: Do you believe the Apocrypha is the infallible word of God?
Tobit 12:9 states that “alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.” ... DO YOU BELIEVE THIS VERSE TO BE TRUE? If you don't believe Tobit 12:9 to be true, how do you determine which verses in the apocrypha are true and valid for teaching?
Can one use the Book of Mormon and the writings of Islam, etc. to "teach us much" as to what God would have us do?
I grant you can learn from the Book of Mormon what Mormon believe ... but if you read the Book of Mormon to find out what God wishes you to do then that is another matter. (the source of God's infallible instructions being the crux of my post)

It's just like the difference between John Calvin, John Wesley, Martin Luther, Joseph Smith, Charles Russell and the list goes on as they teach from man's theories making up their own doctrines that are separate from the doctrines of Christ.

Not sure what you mean by "which are separate from the doctrines of God". Each of these men's teachings are, IMO, making their best attempt to put in other words and organize what they believe is true from God's infallible word. (aside: I do not know who Charles Russell is).
My point is one's source of God's infallible word/instructions will be critical to your understanding of God. I am not saying John Calvin and John Wesley are infallible sources of God's instructions; rather, I am saying they use, IMO, the infallible source of God's instructions (66 books of Bible) as the source of their understanding of what God would have us do. So John Calvin and John Wesley are more likely to agree with each other than with Joseph Smith as their source of God's infallible instructions is the same.

So, I am saying that:
If R.C. tradition and the apocrypha are FALSE one would be a FOOL to search for God's infallible truth in them.
If R.C. tradition and the apocrypha are TRUE one would be a FOOL Not to search for God's infallible truth in them.

Is it not up to each of us to study to show ourselves approved of God rightly dividing the word of God?

Agreed. And a prerequisite would be to determine what is the source of God's word for without a true source of God's word it is not possible to "rightly divide the Word of God". Getting it wrong has possible eternal consequences.

We ALL get 'it' wrong to some degree. You can use your free will to decide what is the source of God's infallible word and if you get it right you are more likely to be saved.
I consider those who used their 'free will' to determine the Koran to be God's infallible word so WRONG that they are 'TOAST' ... and they think a similar way about my belief that God's infallible instructions are found in the 66 books of the Bible, but that's me. *giggles*

 

[for_his_glory]

I stated that the infallible source of God's word is the crux of disagreement among the R.C. church and protestants. How can you disagree with that? (I did not say any individual is an infallible source of God's word.)

My bad, I read that wrong of what you said. Thank you for correcting me.

I have read some of the Apocrypha and parts I believe and other parts I do not. I think adding it to the Bible would have caused a greater scale of division. I'm not saying they are not worth reading, especially within the history parts of the Maccabee's, but overall what it boils down to is truly hearing and listening to the Holy Spirit teach us either directly or working through others. This is why we need to learn how to Spiritually discern that of truth and error.

We are not infallible, but the word of God is in what He gave to the Prophets and Apostles to write.