The Catholic Church.

[for_his_glory]

I think we agree on something.

As I stated previously...I tried studying up on this some years ago, but found it too difficult to follow through to arrive at any conclusion.
The CC must have its reasons as to why Mary should/could not have had any other children. I must say that this is an obstacle for many Catholics that I know.
It's just inconceivable to them that the marriage between Mary and Joseph was not consumated.

I've read comments by the ECFs -
Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and also Josephus, but it was of no help.

For instance: Origen states that Paul regarded James as a brother of the Lord.
What does that mean?
In Galatians 1:19 Paul states:
But I did not see another one of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.

I really don't believe this is a salvation issue....so I think anyone could believe what their heart tells them.

Here is a study for you and everyone.

Matthew 13:55-56; Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Matthew 27:55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him: 56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.
(Mother of Zebedee's children was Salome also know by the name Mary)

Mark 3:31 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
Mark 3:32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
Mark 3:33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
Mark 3:34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
(Speaking about Jesus siblings and his mother looking for him)

Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
(Salome another name for Mary being Zebedee's wife.)

John 2:12 After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.
(notice brethren are separate from disciples)

John 7:3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.
John 7:4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.
John 7:5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.
John 7:6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.
John 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
John 7:8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.
John 7:9 When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.
John 7:10 But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.
(notice it says his brethren said to go show himself to the disciples)

John 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
(Three Mary's)

1Corinthians 9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
(notice is separates the apostles from the brothers of the Lord)

Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
Gal 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
(James, the half brother of Jesus, is also a disciple, but not one of the original 12, known as James the less not to be confused with James the greater being the son of Zebedee. Notice is says the Lord's brother)

Jesus had four half brothers, James (called the less), Joses/Joseph, Juda/Jude and Simon and some sisters, but it's not known how many sisters he had or what their names were. The reason they were all half brothers an sisters is because Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus.

Three mothers named Mary. Mary the mother of Jesus wife of Joseph, his mother's sister Mary, also known as Salome the wife of Zebedee and the mother of James the greater and John as John was the beloved disciple of Jesus. Salome is not to be confused with Salome the daughter of Herodias. And there with the other two Mary's was Mary Magdalene as all three witnessed the Crucifixion of Jesus. When Jesus told John to behold his mother means John's mother as John brought her into his house.

The Catholic doctrine of the eternal virginity of Mary is not supported by scripture. They claim these other children were from a former marriage of Joseph from a former wife, but yet no Biblical foundation, nor that Mary, after marrying Joseph remain a virgin. Joseph only kept her as a virgin until the birth of Christ.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Perhaps you are not aware but the progenitors of Protestantism also were adherents of extra Ecclesiam nulla salus...


Luther ---> "For outside the Christian Church, there is no truth, no Christ, and no salvation. (Sermon for the Early Christmas Service; Luke 2:15-20 (1521-1522). Luther's Works, American Ed., Hans J. Hillerbrand, Helmut T. Lehmann ed., Philadelphia, Concordia Publishing House/Fortress Press, 1974, ISBN 0-8006-0352-4 (Sermons II), vol. 52:39-40)


Calvin ---> "...beyond the pale of the Church, no forgiveness of sins, no salvation can be hoped for." (Institutes, Book IV, Ch 1:4)

Aside: Unlike the R.C. church who use TRADITION for their source of God's instruction, the "progenitors of Protestantism" thoughts are merely opinions, not infallible doctrine.
Sola Scriptura

Aside: I'm not a biblical historian, but since we protestants are saved by faith alone and a facet of faith is knowledge and the only source of biblical knowledge back then is the visible church ... one's salvation was dependent on the visible church to gain knowledge needed for salvation (Rom. 10:13-15). Thus, Calvin's point IMO. Again, I follow the 66 books of the bible and not Calvin save to the point Calvin follows the 66 books.

 

[Fastfredy0]

If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away that person's share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. Revelation 22:19

The Apocrypha - Deuterocanon of the R.C. Church
The Catholic OT Canon includes - Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, I and II Maccabees - plus sections of Esther and Daniel which are absent from the Protestant OT. Protestant Christians do not accept these Writings as inspired by God and refer to them as the "Apocrypha".
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resource/55989/the-apocrypha

Currently, all main non-Protestant Christian denominations accept as canonical the Roman Catholic Apocrypha (the Deuterocanon), consisting of Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, Letter of Jeremiah, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, the Additions to Esther, and the Additions to Daniel (The New Oxford Annotated Apocrypha 4).Apr 12, 2019 Google

Let's take some examples, starting with the book of Sirach which teaches that almsgiving makes atonement for sin. “Whoso honoureth his father maketh an atonement for his sins...Water will quench a flaming fire; and alms maketh an atonement for sin” (Sirach 3:3, 30). Sirach teaches that honouring parents and giving alms atones for sin. Sirach teaches that a person can be justified by another method apart from substitutionary sacrifice. Sirach teaches justification by the works of the law (honouring parents, etc.) which is directly refuted by the Bible: “A man is not justified by the works of the law” (Galatians 2:16).

Similarly Tobit 12:9 states that “alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.”

2 Maccabbees 12:43, “And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection.”

Wisdom 8:19,20 is another contradiction between the apocrypha and Scripture. “For I was a witty child, and had a good spirit. Yea rather, being good, I came into a body undefiled.” However, the Bible teaches that all are born with original sin. "Through one man’s offense judgment came to all men... by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners" (Romans 5:18, 19). “There is none righteous, no, not one” (Romans 3:10). The author of Wisdom believes he was an exception.

There are also historical errors in the apocrypha. For example, Tobit claims to have been alive when Jeroboam revolted (931 B.C.) and when Assyria conquered Israel (722 B.C.). These two events were separated by over 200 years and yet the total lifespan of Tobit was 158 years (Tobit 1:3-5; 14:11)! Judith mistakenly identifies Nebuchadnezzar as king of the Assyrians (1:1, 7) when in fact he was the king of Babylon (2 Kings 24:1). http://www.justforcatholics.org/a109.htm

• Purgatory Is Taught In The Apocrypha
• According To The Apocrypha God Hears The Prayers Of The Dead
• The Apocrypha Teaches The Pre-existence Of Souls as does the Book of Mormon
• It Teaches Creation Out Of Pre-Existent Matter while the Bible says God created things out of nothing
• The Apocrypha Is Never Cited In The New Testament As Scripture
• The Apocrypha Has Always Been Rejected By The Jews As Scripture
• While a few of the early leaders of the church accepted some of the books of Apocrypha as Scripture, most of the great church leaders did not-Athanasius, Origen, and Jerome, to name a few. Many great church leaders spoke out against the Apocrypha. Those who do cite the Apocrypha as Scripture were few in number.
• They Were Rejected By Many Catholic Scholars Through The Protestant Reformation
• They Were Not Officially Accepted By The Roman Catholic Church Until The 16th Century
• There Are Demonstrable Historical Errors In The Apocrypha

Yahda, yahda, yahda ….

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_395.cfm

The Roman Catholic Church Claims That It Has the Authority to Determine the Limits of Scripture
There is one more point we must emphasize before we look at the Roman Catholic arguments in some detail. When all is said and done, the Roman Catholic Church believes that it is the final authority on all matters of faith and practice; whatever it says is final. Therefore, the matter is not up for debate because the church has made its infallible decision.

 

[for_his_glory]

Sure does sound it.

This is for Walpole also. I am not talking about soul sleep as it is a heretical teaching. Has nothing to do with this topic so I will not derail this thread. If you want to know what soul sleep is all about you can PM me.

 

[for_his_glory]

What what you have posted is an apologia for the belief in soul sleep. This is not a belief Christians hold. Jesus refutes this throughout the Gospels, particularly here in St. Luke's Gospel when He describes the scene in heaven when a sinner repents...

"I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it? And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, 'Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.' Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth." - Luke 15:7-10

Our Blessed Lord states there is joy by those "in the presence of the angels of God." Those in the presence of the angels of God are those who have died and gone to heaven. No soul sleep.

It is at the eschaton where our souls will be reunited with our resurrected bodies. This is Christianity 101.

This is what I said I was talking about in reference to our soul. As in giving this if you want to start a new topic on this I see little relevance to this topic.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here dust + breath/spirit from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.

Genesis 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/spirit returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment when Christ returns.​

 

[Walpole]

This is for Walpole also. I am not talking about soul sleep as it is a heretical teaching. Has nothing to do with this topic so I will not derail this thread. If you want to know what soul sleep is all about you can PM me.

You gave a defense of soul sleep here ---> https://christianforums.net/threads/the-catholic-church.87237/post-1632654

The very definition of soul sleep is your statement here ---> "Everyone that has ever died is asleep in their grave and when Christ returns they will hear His voice as He calls all of them to come forth."

 

[Walpole]

This is what I said I was talking about in reference to our soul. As in giving this if you want to start a new topic on this I see little relevance to this topic.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here dust + breath/spirit from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.

Genesis 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/spirit returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment when Christ returns.​

Our bodies await the resurrection, but our souls are with God at death. Jesus affirms this. You denied this when you advocated for soul sleep here ---> https://christianforums.net/threads/the-catholic-church.87237/post-1632654

 

[Walpole]

If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away that person's share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. Revelation 22:19

The Apocrypha - Deuterocanon of the R.C. Church
The Catholic OT Canon includes - Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, I and II Maccabees - plus sections of Esther and Daniel which are absent from the Protestant OT. Protestant Christians do not accept these Writings as inspired by God and refer to them as the "Apocrypha".
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resource/55989/the-apocrypha

Currently, all main non-Protestant Christian denominations accept as canonical the Roman Catholic Apocrypha (the Deuterocanon), consisting of Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, Letter of Jeremiah, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, the Additions to Esther, and the Additions to Daniel (The New Oxford Annotated Apocrypha 4).Apr 12, 2019 Google

Let's take some examples, starting with the book of Sirach which teaches that almsgiving makes atonement for sin. “Whoso honoureth his father maketh an atonement for his sins...Water will quench a flaming fire; and alms maketh an atonement for sin” (Sirach 3:3, 30). Sirach teaches that honouring parents and giving alms atones for sin. Sirach teaches that a person can be justified by another method apart from substitutionary sacrifice. Sirach teaches justification by the works of the law (honouring parents, etc.) which is directly refuted by the Bible: “A man is not justified by the works of the law” (Galatians 2:16).

Similarly Tobit 12:9 states that “alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.”

2 Maccabbees 12:43, “And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection.”

Wisdom 8:19,20 is another contradiction between the apocrypha and Scripture. “For I was a witty child, and had a good spirit. Yea rather, being good, I came into a body undefiled.” However, the Bible teaches that all are born with original sin. "Through one man’s offense judgment came to all men... by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners" (Romans 5:18, 19). “There is none righteous, no, not one” (Romans 3:10). The author of Wisdom believes he was an exception.

There are also historical errors in the apocrypha. For example, Tobit claims to have been alive when Jeroboam revolted (931 B.C.) and when Assyria conquered Israel (722 B.C.). These two events were separated by over 200 years and yet the total lifespan of Tobit was 158 years (Tobit 1:3-5; 14:11)! Judith mistakenly identifies Nebuchadnezzar as king of the Assyrians (1:1, 7) when in fact he was the king of Babylon (2 Kings 24:1). http://www.justforcatholics.org/a109.htm

• Purgatory Is Taught In The Apocrypha
• According To The Apocrypha God Hears The Prayers Of The Dead
• The Apocrypha Teaches The Pre-existence Of Souls as does the Book of Mormon
• It Teaches Creation Out Of Pre-Existent Matter while the Bible says God created things out of nothing
• The Apocrypha Is Never Cited In The New Testament As Scripture
• The Apocrypha Has Always Been Rejected By The Jews As Scripture
• While a few of the early leaders of the church accepted some of the books of Apocrypha as Scripture, most of the great church leaders did not-Athanasius, Origen, and Jerome, to name a few. Many great church leaders spoke out against the Apocrypha. Those who do cite the Apocrypha as Scripture were few in number.
• They Were Rejected By Many Catholic Scholars Through The Protestant Reformation
• They Were Not Officially Accepted By The Roman Catholic Church Until The 16th Century
• There Are Demonstrable Historical Errors In The Apocrypha

Yahda, yahda, yahda ….

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_395.cfm

The Roman Catholic Church Claims That It Has the Authority to Determine the Limits of Scripture
There is one more point we must emphasize before we look at the Roman Catholic arguments in some detail. When all is said and done, the Roman Catholic Church believes that it is the final authority on all matters of faith and practice; whatever it says is final. Therefore, the matter is not up for debate because the church has made its infallible decision.

Perhaps you should remove these verses from your canon as well then...


"Kindness and honour are sin’s purging; ever it is the fear of the Lord turns men away from harm." (Proverbs 16:6)


"But when thou givest alms, thou shalt not so much as let thy left hand know what thy right hand is doing, so secret is thy almsgiving to be; and then thy Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward thee." (Mt. 6:3-4)


"Sell what you have, and give alms, so providing yourselves with a purse that time cannot wear holes in, an inexhaustible treasure laid up in heaven, where no thief comes near, no moth consumes. Where your treasure-house is, there your heart is too." (Luke 12:33-34)


"'What is it, Lord?' he asked, gazing at him in terror. And he answered, 'Thy prayers and alms-deeds are recorded on high in God’s sight'." (Acts 10:4)


"And Cornelius said, 'Three days ago, at this very time, I was making my afternoon prayer in my house, when suddenly I saw a man standing before me, in white clothes, who said to me, Cornelius, thy prayer has been heard, thy almsdeeds have won remembrance in God’s sight.'" (Acts 10:30-31)

 

[Walpole]

Here is a study for you and everyone.

Matthew 13:55-56; Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Matthew 27:55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him: 56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.
(Mother of Zebedee's children was Salome also know by the name Mary)

Mark 3:31 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
Mark 3:32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
Mark 3:33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
Mark 3:34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
(Speaking about Jesus siblings and his mother looking for him)

Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
(Salome another name for Mary being Zebedee's wife.)

John 2:12 After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.
(notice brethren are separate from disciples)

John 7:3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.
John 7:4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.
John 7:5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.
John 7:6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.
John 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
John 7:8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.
John 7:9 When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.
John 7:10 But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.
(notice it says his brethren said to go show himself to the disciples)

John 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
(Three Mary's)

1Corinthians 9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
(notice is separates the apostles from the brothers of the Lord)

Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
Gal 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
(James, the half brother of Jesus, is also a disciple, but not one of the original 12, known as James the less not to be confused with James the greater being the son of Zebedee. Notice is says the Lord's brother)

Jesus had four half brothers, James (called the less), Joses/Joseph, Juda/Jude and Simon and some sisters, but it's not known how many sisters he had or what their names were. The reason they were all half brothers an sisters is because Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus.

Three mothers named Mary. Mary the mother of Jesus wife of Joseph, his mother's sister Mary, also known as Salome the wife of Zebedee and the mother of James the greater and John as John was the beloved disciple of Jesus. Salome is not to be confused with Salome the daughter of Herodias. And there with the other two Mary's was Mary Magdalene as all three witnessed the Crucifixion of Jesus. When Jesus told John to behold his mother means John's mother as John brought her into his house.

The Catholic doctrine of the eternal virginity of Mary is not supported by scripture. They claim these other children were from a former marriage of Joseph from a former wife, but yet no Biblical foundation, nor that Mary, after marrying Joseph remain a virgin. Joseph only kept her as a virgin until the birth of Christ.

I have already refuted this countless times. Have you bothered to read my posts?

---> https://christianforums.net/threads/the-catholic-church.87237/post-1632408

 

[Walpole]

Well now it looks like my posts are being deleted. It was just a matter of time I suppose...

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Well now it looks like my posts are being deleted. It was just a matter of time I suppose...

Which posts?
That's against the law!!!

 

[Fastfredy0]

Tobit 12:9 states that “alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.”

How much does eternal life in heaven cost these days? Does the cost vary according to the number and severity of ones sins? Does the cost vary according to one's net worth... like, can a pauper ever have enough money?

In the teaching of the Catholic Church, an indulgence (Latin: indulgentia, from indulgeo, 'permit') is "a way to reduce the amount of punishment one has to undergo for sins".[1] The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes an indulgence as "a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and all of the saints".

The recipient of an indulgence must perform an action to receive it. This is most often the saying (once, or many times) of a specified prayer, but may also include the visiting of a particular place, or the performance of specific good works.
Source: Wikipedia

 

[for_his_glory]

In Christianity there is an old axiom which states lex orandi, lex credendi. The proper understanding of the communion of saints, by those whose doctrine it is, is evidenced by simply looking at the early Church's liturgies and architecture. The Church's earliest altars were built over the tombs of her saints. The Church's earliest liturgies invoke the saints to pray for us. The Church's earliest liturgical calendars included commemoration of the saints and martyrs.

"...I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held." (Rev. 6:9)


View attachment 12340



Communio is in our nature. This is the reason why the families of those lost in war cannot find peace themselves until the remains of their loved ones are found. Talk to anyone who has a family member still missing from past wars or look at the recent building collapse in Miami Beach. Families cannot find peace until they have their loved one's body.

Even Protestants implicitly acknowledge this. They do this in a couple of ways. One, they may have their loved one's cremated remains on their mantle in their home. Secondly, for those who still bury their dead, they used to write R.I.P. on their tombstones. There is a reason for that, which is implicitly contained in the very meaning of the abbreviation, R.I.P.

lex orandi, lex credendi in the traditions of man's doctrine and traditions, but have no Biblical foundation. Where are we told in scripture to pray to dead people? I do not see Rev 6:9 as being relevant to any of this as this is their spirit/souls that have gone back to God who gave it breath


Romans 8:34 who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

1Timothy 2:5 for there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Prayers consist of faith, consecration and commitment. There are prayers of worship and prayers of agreement that unite the whole body of Christ together as one in unison in Gods Spirit. These are prayers of agreement for the body of Christ as we lay our petitions before Him.

Prayer of consecration is a prayer of dedicating ourselves to the will of God to be a faithful servant perfected in the knowledge and wisdom of the word of God being directed by his Spirit in all we do so we will always remain that faithful servant that brings glory and honor to the Lord.

Prayer of praise is our prayers of thanksgiving we offer up to God for his mercy and grace he bestows on us daily. Our prayer is that of joy and jubilation as we are triumphed in all things that are good and right before the Lord. Gods’ sanctuary is our place of refuge and strength as we abide in the shadow of the Almighty God that covers and protects us. Psalms 91; 150:1-6

Prayer of agreement is when two or more are gathered together in the name of Jesus presenting their petition to the Lord for agreement in his word for that which they are praying for. A prayer of a righteous man avails much for when we place everything before the Lord we know that his guidance will be perfected in us as we follow in the steps of Jesus and continue in the good works he started.

 

[for_his_glory]

You gave a defense of soul sleep here ---> https://christianforums.net/threads/the-catholic-church.87237/post-1632654

The very definition of soul sleep is your statement here ---> "Everyone that has ever died is asleep in their grave and when Christ returns they will hear His voice as He calls all of them to come forth."

I said, if you would like to start a new thread on this you can tag me in as soul sleep has nothing to do with this thread.

 

[Walpole]

lex orandi, lex credendi in the traditions of man's doctrine and traditions, but have no Biblical foundation. Where are we told in scripture to pray to dead people? I do not see Rev 6:9 as being relevant to any of this as this is their spirit/souls that have gone back to God who gave it breath


Romans 8:34 who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

1Timothy 2:5 for there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Prayers consist of faith, consecration and commitment. There are prayers of worship and prayers of agreement that unite the whole body of Christ together as one in unison in Gods Spirit. These are prayers of agreement for the body of Christ as we lay our petitions before Him.

Prayer of consecration is a prayer of dedicating ourselves to the will of God to be a faithful servant perfected in the knowledge and wisdom of the word of God being directed by his Spirit in all we do so we will always remain that faithful servant that brings glory and honor to the Lord.

Prayer of praise is our prayers of thanksgiving we offer up to God for his mercy and grace he bestows on us daily. Our prayer is that of joy and jubilation as we are triumphed in all things that are good and right before the Lord. Gods’ sanctuary is our place of refuge and strength as we abide in the shadow of the Almighty God that covers and protects us. Psalms 91; 150:1-6

Prayer of agreement is when two or more are gathered together in the name of Jesus presenting their petition to the Lord for agreement in his word for that which they are praying for. A prayer of a righteous man avails much for when we place everything before the Lord we know that his guidance will be perfected in us as we follow in the steps of Jesus and continue in the good works he started.

Prayers of the Body of Christ include those in heaven. Here is David...

"Praise the Lord, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will." (Psalm 103:21)

"Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord from the heavens; praise him in the heights above. Praise him, all his angels; praise him, all his heavenly hosts." (Psalm 148:1-2)


Here is our Blessed Lord again...

"I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it? And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, 'Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.' Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth." - Luke 15:7-10


This is the Communion of Saints.

 

[WIP]

Well now it looks like my posts are being deleted. It was just a matter of time I suppose...

You should have received notification from the moderator that deleted your posts. If not, please start a discussion in the Talk With the Staff forum to bring it to staff attention so we can figure out what happened.

 

[Walpole]

You should have received notification from the moderator that deleted your posts. If not, please start a discussion in the Talk With the Staff forum to bring it to staff attention so we can figure out what happened.

I think the poster / admin person just didn't want to be challenged for advocating soul sleep, apparently unaware they were doing so. You can scroll up and see their post. Instead of trying to explain how their position was distinguishable from soul sleep, he / she chose to just delete posts which pointed out it was indistinguishable.

 

[Adoration]

The Catholic doctrine of the eternal virginity of Mary is not supported by scripture. They claim these other children were from a former marriage of Joseph from a former wife, but yet no Biblical foundation, nor that Mary, after marrying Joseph remain a virgin. Joseph only kept her as a virgin until the birth of Christ.

Agreed. The Catholic church is guilty of adding all kinds of ideas and rituals to Christianity... because it serves their purpose. Sadly... many do not see this institution for what it is... not to mention all the abuse that has been perpetrated upon the innocent.

 

[jaybo]

Agreed. The Catholic church is guilty of adding all kinds of ideas and rituals to Christianity... because it serves their purpose. Sadly... many do not see this institution for what it is... not to mention all the abuse that has been perpetrated upon the innocent.

Agreed.

 

[WIP]

Agreed. The Catholic church is guilty of adding all kinds of ideas and rituals to Christianity... because it serves their purpose. Sadly... many do not see this institution for what it is... not to mention all the abuse that has been perpetrated upon the innocent.

You mean like so many Protestant churches have done too?