The Catholic Church.

[for_his_glory]

Are you really asking what harm would there be in worshiping Mary? The answer is it is a violation of the first commandment! Worshiping anyone other than God is idolatry. This is Judaism and Christianity 101.

What Catholics today worship Mary as a goddess? Please present your evidence.

I have before in another thread where I showed you pics of even the Pope bowing down to her and praying to her. But I digress.

 

[for_his_glory]

---> Please post the verse(s) from Scripture which identifies Mary's supposed subsequent maternities and Jesus' uterine siblings.


---> Where is her grave which contains her body?

Mat 13:54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
Mat 13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Jesus had four half brothers, James, Joses, Juda and Simon and some sisters, but it's not known how many sisters he had or what their names were. The reason they were all half brothers an sisters is because Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus.

Scripture and history is silent on where Mary is buried as speculation and traditions believe she is buried at the Church of the Sepulcher of Saint Mary in the Kidron Valley at the foot of Mount of Olives in Jerusalem. There are no found facts that I can find. One thing I do know is what Jesus said in John 3:13 that no one has ever ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

I'm not going to get into a discussion about Mary, Elijah, Moses or Enoch being caught up to heaven as that needs to be another topic and comes against what Jesus said in John 3:13. Fact is no one truly knows where Mary is buried, but it would have to be around Jerusalem somewhere.

 

[for_his_glory]

I am not interested in Mary's genealogy. It is not scriptural, therefore irrelevant.

Luke 3:23, "So Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years old. He was the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,"

Luke 3:31, "... the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David," refers to Jesus, not Mary!

Why are you persistently trying to justify Mary's lineage? Why are you so inordinately fixated on Mary who, let's face it, is a minor person in Scripture? Jesus needed a human mother and she was chosen. Nothing more...

And you have a good evening as I am done discussing this with you.

 

[for_his_glory]

Nobody is venerating Joseph as some super-human.

Nor am I venerating Mary. You have a great evening as I am done with this.

 

[for_his_glory]

I guess I don't consider lineage important.

If my lineage is greater than someone else's, does that make me more important? When the Jews bragged of their lineage from Abraham they were told it's not a big deal as God could make more children of Abraham from stones.

You're IN CHRIST which makes you more important than any earthly royal lineage.

Aside: Not that this is important

I do consider it important in some cases, but not all. But it's time for me to move past this as it's not being received very well and way to lengthy to display the full history which I do enjoy studying.

 

[Walpole]

I have before in another thread where I showed you pics of even the Pope bowing down to her and praying to her. But I digress.

Link please. Bowing before something does not mean one is worshiping it. If that is the case, then these folks are worshipping guitars, house plants, speakers and podiums...

In order to worship something, one must believe, ontologically, the person or thing they are worshiping is divine.

As for praying to the saints, here is David...

"Praise the Lord, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will." (Psalm 103:21)

"Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord from the heavens; praise him in the heights above. Praise him, all his angels; praise him, all his heavenly hosts." (Psalm 148:1-2)

 

[Walpole]

Mat 13:54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
Mat 13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Jesus had four half brothers, James, Joses, Juda and Simon and some sisters, but it's not known how many sisters he had or what their names were. The reason they were all half brothers an sisters is because Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus.

I have addressed this multiple times. Maybe it will eventually stick...

Scripture states that Mary Cleophas (not Mary of Nazareth) was the mother of James and Joses. Ergo, "brother" cannot not mean uterine sibling in Matthew 13:55.

Matthew’s list of Mary Cleophas’ offspring is clearly abbreviated in Matthew 27:56 (i.e. he confines his list to the two eldest males). It stands to reason that Matthew would abbreviate this list, since we already know who James and Joses are from his longer list in Matthew 13:55.

Ergo, when James, Joseph, Simon and Judas are called Jesus’ “brothers” in Matthew 13:55, this can not mean uterine siblings based on the fact that St. Matthew names a different Mary as their mother.


In Jewish antiquity, "brother" had a much wider meaning than we modern Westerners use. When you see the word "brother" in Scripture, you cannot force a modern Westernized concept of a family unit (i.e. a nuclear family) onto an ancient Hebrew / Semitic (tribal) culture. The ancient Hebrews did not view family in this manner. Thus, you skew the text by applying modern concepts to ancient cultures, thereby incorrectly interpreting those passages by doing so through the lens of a modern nuclear family.

"The units comprising the village mispahah, or kinship group, were the families of early Israel. Because these families were agriculturists, their identity and survival were integrally connected with their material world - more specifically, with their arable land, their implements for working the land and processing its products, and their domiciles - as well as with the human and also animal components of the domestic group. In many ways, the term family household is more useful in dealing with early Israelite families (although that would not be the case for the monarchical period and later, when domestic unites were more varied in their spatial aspects and economic functions). Combining family, with its kingship meanings, and household, a more flexible term including both coresident and economic functions, has descriptive merit. The family household thus included a set of related people as well as residential buildings, outbuildings, tools, equipment, fields, livestock, and orchards; it sometimes also included household members who were not kin, such as "sojourners", war captives and servants." - Families in Ancient Israel: The Family in Early Israel, Carol Meyers, pgs. 13-14

In describing early archaeological excavation of homes in Israel...

"These dwelling clusters constitute evidence for a family unit in early Israel larger than that of the nuclear family (or conjugal couple with unmarried offspring). Each pillared house in a cluster may represent the living space of a nuclear family or parts thereof, but the shared courtyard space and common house walls of the linked buildings indicate a larger family grouping. Early Israelite dwelling unites were thus complex arrangements of several buildings and housed what we might call extended families. Furthermore, thee compound dwelling unites were not isolated buildings within a settlement of single-family homes." - Ibid, pg. 16

"The family was never so 'nuclear' as it is in the modern West." - Families in Ancient Israel: Marriage, Divorce and Family in Second Temple Judaism, John J. Collins, pg. 106

Source

Scripture and history is silent on where Mary is buried as speculation and traditions believe she is buried at the Church of the Sepulcher of Saint Mary in the Kidron Valley at the foot of Mount of Olives in Jerusalem. There are no found facts that I can find. One thing I do know is what Jesus said in John 3:13 that no one has ever ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

I'm not going to get into a discussion about Mary, Elijah, Moses or Enoch being caught up to heaven as that needs to be another topic and comes against what Jesus said in John 3:13. Fact is no one truly knows where Mary is buried, but it would have to be around Jerusalem somewhere.

There is no body in the Church of the Sepulcher of St. Mary (which is also called the Church of the Assumption!) in the Kidron Valley. I have visited it many times. It is empty.

---> https://www.seetheholyland.net/tomb-of-mary/

 

[Walpole]

Let's look at Mary's role in Jesus' life. All through Matthew's gospel it's Joseph who receives instructions from the angel of the Lord, not Mary.

Matthew 2:13-14, "After they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Get up, take the child and his mother and flee to Egypt, and stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to look for the child to kill him.”

Matthew 2:19-21, " After Herod had died, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt saying, “Get up, take the child and his mother, and go to the land of Israel, for those who were seeking the child’s life are dead.” So he got up and took the child and his mother and returned to the land of Israel."

This is expected, as Joseph was the man, father and protector of the Holy Family.

Is your wife expected to be the protector of you and your small child when faced with danger to your lives?

Also, why does Jesus ask "who is my mother" in three of the four gospels?

Matthew 12:46-50, "While Jesus was still speaking to the crowds, his mother [Mary] and brothers came and stood outside, asking to speak to him. Someone] told him, “Look, your mother [Mary] and your brothers are standing outside wanting to speak to you.” To the one who had said this, Jesus replied, “Who is my mother and who are my brothers?” 49 And pointing toward his disciples he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” (also in Mark 3 and Luke 8)

This last story should make it clear that Mary is not the venerated woman the Catholic church makes her out to be. She gave birth to Jesus but Joseph raised Him and made the important decisions about Him according to God's will. Then, as an adult, He makes her importance to Him clear to all, saying "Who is my mother?"

You completely missed the lesson our Blessed Lord gave. It was not a knock against His own mother...

"For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

Jesus teaches that spiritual kinship to Him according to obedience (according to obedience) is even more important that physical kinship (according to the flesh). Mary had BOTH of these, and is therefore uniquely blessed and therefore deserving of the special honor given to her by Elizabeth and others.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nobody is venerating Joseph as some super-human.

Did Joseph's blood flow into the unborn Messiah?

 

[jaybo]

I realize it is always through the male as this we agree on, but in the case of Mary you have to research her paternal side, not Joseph's, that traces back to Nathan being the son of David and where prophecy was made that Christ will sit on the throne of David for eternity.

It should be important to know the lineage of Jesus through Mary in why she was chosen to birth the Christ child per the prophecy that Christ will sit on the throne of David. Mary's descent comes through David's son Nathan, Luke 3:31. To fulfill God's promise to establish David's throne forever, God honored Nathan by making him the ancestor of the promised King (Messiah) who would sit on David's throne throughout eternity, Luke 1:31-33. Mary having no brothers to inherit the throne the inheritance would come to her first son being Jesus.

I'm not going to go round and round about this. You can rationalize however you want but lineage is always through the male line in the Bible. The Bible says what it says. Period. I'm done discussing this.

 

[for_his_glory]

Link please. Bowing before something does not mean one is worshiping it. If that is the case, then these folks are worshipping guitars, house plants, speakers and podiums...

In order to worship something, one must believe, ontologically, the person or thing they are worshiping is divine.

As for praying to the saints, here is David...

"Praise the Lord, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will." (Psalm 103:21)

"Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord from the heavens; praise him in the heights above. Praise him, all his angels; praise him, all his heavenly hosts." (Psalm 148:1-2)

It wouldn't make any difference as you can believe however way you want as I'm not here to change anyone's mind.

 

[for_his_glory]

I have addressed this multiple times. Maybe it will eventually stick...

Scripture states that Mary Cleophas (not Mary of Nazareth) was the mother of James and Joses. Ergo, "brother" cannot not mean uterine sibling in Matthew 13:55.

Matthew’s list of Mary Cleophas’ offspring is clearly abbreviated in Matthew 27:56 (i.e. he confines his list to the two eldest males). It stands to reason that Matthew would abbreviate this list, since we already know who James and Joses are from his longer list in Matthew 13:55.

Ergo, when James, Joseph, Simon and Judas are called Jesus’ “brothers” in Matthew 13:55, this can not mean uterine siblings based on the fact that St. Matthew names a different Mary as their mother.


In Jewish antiquity, "brother" had a much wider meaning than we modern Westerners use. When you see the word "brother" in Scripture, you cannot force a modern Westernized concept of a family unit (i.e. a nuclear family) onto an ancient Hebrew / Semitic (tribal) culture. The ancient Hebrews did not view family in this manner. Thus, you skew the text by applying modern concepts to ancient cultures, thereby incorrectly interpreting those passages by doing so through the lens of a modern nuclear family.

"The units comprising the village mispahah, or kinship group, were the families of early Israel. Because these families were agriculturists, their identity and survival were integrally connected with their material world - more specifically, with their arable land, their implements for working the land and processing its products, and their domiciles - as well as with the human and also animal components of the domestic group. In many ways, the term family household is more useful in dealing with early Israelite families (although that would not be the case for the monarchical period and later, when domestic unites were more varied in their spatial aspects and economic functions). Combining family, with its kingship meanings, and household, a more flexible term including both coresident and economic functions, has descriptive merit. The family household thus included a set of related people as well as residential buildings, outbuildings, tools, equipment, fields, livestock, and orchards; it sometimes also included household members who were not kin, such as "sojourners", war captives and servants." - Families in Ancient Israel: The Family in Early Israel, Carol Meyers, pgs. 13-14

In describing early archaeological excavation of homes in Israel...

"These dwelling clusters constitute evidence for a family unit in early Israel larger than that of the nuclear family (or conjugal couple with unmarried offspring). Each pillared house in a cluster may represent the living space of a nuclear family or parts thereof, but the shared courtyard space and common house walls of the linked buildings indicate a larger family grouping. Early Israelite dwelling unites were thus complex arrangements of several buildings and housed what we might call extended families. Furthermore, thee compound dwelling unites were not isolated buildings within a settlement of single-family homes." - Ibid, pg. 16

"The family was never so 'nuclear' as it is in the modern West." - Families in Ancient Israel: Marriage, Divorce and Family in Second Temple Judaism, John J. Collins, pg. 106

Source

There is no body in the Church of the Sepulcher of St. Mary (which is also called the Church of the Assumption!) in the Kidron Valley. I have visited it many times. It is empty.

---> https://www.seetheholyland.net/tomb-of-mary/

I said it was only others speculations as there are no given facts where she is buried. I will agree with what Jesus said that is written in John 3:13.

 

[Walpole]

It wouldn't make any difference as you can believe however way you want as I'm not here to change anyone's mind.

So it looks like it's...

Catholics bowing = idolatry

Protestants bowing = no bid deal, perfectly acceptable

 

[Walpole]

I said it was only others speculations as there are no given facts where she is buried. I will agree with what Jesus said that is written in John 3:13.

Perhaps you are not aware of the difference between the ascension (John 3:13) and the assumption. Christ ascended into heaven by His own power, since He is God. Mary (like others before her such as Enoch and Elijah) was assumed or taken up into heaven by God. She did not do it under her own power.

This is why her tomb in the Sepulcher of St. Mary in the Church of the Assumption in the Kidron Valley, which you referenced, is empty.

 

[Walpole]

Did Joseph's blood flow into the unborn Messiah?

Bingo. What a beautiful and succinct way to put it!

 

[Fastfredy0]

Did Joseph's blood flow into the unborn Messiah?

Ah, never did Mary's blood flow into the Messiah (unless God changed how Christ as a fetus matured). Various assets are carried to the fetus by the blood of the mother, but the actual mother's blood is not. The blood of the female does not pass through the placenta although other assets of the blood make it to the baby. This is why you can AO blood type for the mother and a OO type for the fetus and not have the conflicting blood types cause the death of the baby. Similarly, you cannot give type B blood to and type O person.

Aside: There is no scripture that says the EGG of Mary was used; that is just an assumption as that is the usual way these things work, this being a unique situation. It is possible for females today to deliver babies and not use their egg. We do know the sperm of a male was not used in Mary's case.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Debate: Did Mary Have Other Children? (White vs Matatics)​

Aside1: In case someone is interested in both sides of the argument
Aside2: How one can postulate that one can self-determine what is truth given the enormity of contrary argumentation and apparent evidences and the limitation of individual's intelligence, time and access to all proposed truths is beyond me.

 

[jaybo]

Debate: Did Mary Have Other Children? (White vs Matatics)​

Aside1: In case someone is interested in both sides of the argument
Aside2: How one can postulate that one can self-determine what is truth given the enormity of contrary argumentation and apparent evidences and the limitation of individual's intelligence, time and access to all proposed truths is beyond me.

Easy... "Jesus replied, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

 

[for_his_glory]

Perhaps you are not aware of the difference between the ascension (John 3:13) and the assumption. Christ ascended into heaven by His own power, since He is God. Mary (like others before her such as Enoch and Elijah) was assumed or taken up into heaven by God. She did not do it under her own power.

This is why her tomb in the Sepulcher of St. Mary in the Church of the Assumption in the Kidron Valley, which you referenced, is empty.

I didn't want to go there, but I am going to in full context.

Enoch, Moses, Abraham and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach as when they were seen (not Enoch or Abraham) of Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-9 it was only a transfiguration like a vision that they saw Jesus transfigured as was Moses and Elijah. There is no one in the third heaven except God, Jesus and the angels, John 3:13. Everyone that has ever died is asleep in their grave and when Christ returns they will hear His voice as He calls all of them to come forth. They that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation, Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28, 29; 6:40 It is only our spirit/breath/soul that goes back to God who gave it, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7.

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Does not say Enoch was taken up to heaven, but that he was only translated that he should not see death at that particular time being he was 365 years old. Should not see death means since Enoch walked with God he would not see the second death, Rev 20:6, but only that of the first death, Hebrews 9:27, as all his days were three hundred and sixty as he died, but no one knows where.

Genesis 49: 30 In the cave that is in the field of Machpelah, which is before Mamre, in the land of Canaan, which Abraham bought with the field of Ephron the Hittite for a possession of a burying place. 31 There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife; there they buried Isaac and Rebekah his wife; and there I buried Leah.

Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 and he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere, first heaven)

Elijah, having ascended into the air (First heaven) by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him. How long after? There are some difficulties in figuring the exact chronology as it varies from 2 to 10 years or more. A note in Josephus (a Jewish historian of the first century A.D.) says 4 years, while the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA figures it at 7 years.

Regardless of the exact number of years there came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind into the first heaven and transported to another location on Earth. God did not see fit in His purpose to reveal his whereabouts. Chariot of fire is used at times figuratively for host (angels) like in 2 Kings 2:11, 12: 6:17; Psalms 68:17; 104:1-4. Elijah, by his prayers and his counsel was the "chariot of Israel and the horseman thereof", meaning Elijah was the stronghold of Israel, the driving force of God. The Israelite's never used chariots till the time of David.

When you compare 2 Kings 2:11-15 with 2 Kings 6:17 you see that God sent the host/angels down to Elijah who caught him up in a whirlwind and translated him to parts unknown. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him.​

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I didn't want to go there, but I am going to in full context.

Enoch, Moses, Abraham and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach as when they were seen (not Enoch or Abraham) of Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-9 it was only a transfiguration like a vision that they saw Jesus transfigured as was Moses and Elijah. There is no one in the third heaven except God, Jesus and the angels, John 3:13. Everyone that has ever died is asleep in their grave and when Christ returns they will hear His voice as He calls all of them to come forth. They that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation, Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28, 29; 6:40 It is only our spirit/breath/soul that goes back to God who gave it, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7.

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Does not say Enoch was taken up to heaven, but that he was only translated that he should not see death at that particular time being he was 365 years old. Should not see death means since Enoch walked with God he would not see the second death, Rev 20:6, but only that of the first death, Hebrews 9:27, as all his days were three hundred and sixty as he died, but no one knows where.

Genesis 49: 30 In the cave that is in the field of Machpelah, which is before Mamre, in the land of Canaan, which Abraham bought with the field of Ephron the Hittite for a possession of a burying place. 31 There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife; there they buried Isaac and Rebekah his wife; and there I buried Leah.

Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 and he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere, first heaven)

Elijah, having ascended into the air (First heaven) by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him. How long after? There are some difficulties in figuring the exact chronology as it varies from 2 to 10 years or more. A note in Josephus (a Jewish historian of the first century A.D.) says 4 years, while the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA figures it at 7 years.

Regardless of the exact number of years there came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind into the first heaven and transported to another location on Earth. God did not see fit in His purpose to reveal his whereabouts. Chariot of fire is used at times figuratively for host (angels) like in 2 Kings 2:11, 12: 6:17; Psalms 68:17; 104:1-4. Elijah, by his prayers and his counsel was the "chariot of Israel and the horseman thereof", meaning Elijah was the stronghold of Israel, the driving force of God. The Israelite's never used chariots till the time of David.

When you compare 2 Kings 2:11-15 with 2 Kings 6:17 you see that God sent the host/angels down to Elijah who caught him up in a whirlwind and translated him to parts unknown. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him.​

Soul sleep.