- Jul 3, 2014
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Yeah.... haven't we all said THAT at one time or another?I never miss the points in the bible.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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The Church Throughout Revelations
- Thread starter for_his_glory
- Start date
- Apr 22, 2011
- 30,578
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- Thread starter
- #22
The Church meaning as those who have been Spiritually born-again. Not everyone that goes to Church are Spiritually born-again, John 3:3-7.
Anyone who has physically died and that were in Christ are saved as they will be resurrected and we will meet them in the air when Christ returns, 1Thessalonians 4:16, 17.
The twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:4; 5:6 are symbolic of the ruling authority in the church. There is a correspondence between the twenty-four elders above and the office of elder below. This means that the government of the church is patterned after heaven itself. As there are elders in heaven above, so there are elders on earth below. That is another topic that can be studied in 1 Chronicles 24:7-19; 25:6-31; 26:12-19.
The promise of everlasting life starts when we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption as long as we do not grieve the Holy Spirit, 2 Corinthians 1:20-22; Ephesians 4:30.
- Apr 22, 2011
- 30,578
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- Thread starter
- #23
If one is Spiritually born-again by that of John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10 then they are sealed by Gods Holy Spirit until the day of redemption that they are saved from the wrath of Gods Great White Throne judgment for their names are found written in the Lambs Book of Life.
24 Elders?They do not represent Israel because at the time of this vision Israel was a whole Nation and had not been redeemed.The Elders can't represent Tribulation Saints because not all had been converted at the time of John's vision.It most likely is the Raptured Church
Revelation 5:8-10;John 14:1-4.
- Apr 22, 2011
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- #25
The seven Churches represent the seven spirits which are found in Isaiah 11:2:
Spirit of the Lord, Spirit of wisdom, Spirit of understanding, Spirit of counsel, Spirit of power, Spirit of knowledge and Spirit of the fear of the Lord.
They were seven literal Churches at the time of John the Apostle was writing Revelation.
- Apr 22, 2011
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- Thread starter
- #27
I truly didn't want to go there to explain the seven Elders as I do not want to go off topic, but I see the need to, but let's stay on topic as this could go in various directions.
The background is found in 1 Chronicles 24:7-19; 25:6-31; and 26:12-19. In chapter 24, the Levitical priesthood is divided into 24 divisions, according to the schedule of their service: they were officials of the sanctuary and of the house of God. In Chapter 25, the Levitical priests are further divided into 24 divisions, responsible for the worship of the sanctuary, and in particular the music of that worship. In Chapter 26, the Levitical priests are again divided into 24 gatekeepers for the house of God.
They were responsible for worship, in particular for the music in worship. They were also to stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God. As it was with the twenty-four divisions of the priests in the book of Chronicles, so it is with the twenty-four elders in the book of Revelation. They are responsible for worship, in particular for the music in worship; they also stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God.
The twenty-four elders, then, are elders--elders in the heavenly sanctuary of God--who are responsible for worship, for the music of worship, and as such they stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God.
We have identified the twenty-four elders that surround the throne as elders, but what is the significance of those elders around the throne? Why are they there? The answer is that the twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:4; 5:6 are symbolic of the ruling authority in the church. There is a correspondence between the twenty-four elders above and the office of elder below. This means that the government of the church is patterned after heaven itself. As there are elders in heaven above, so there are elders on earth below.
- Apr 22, 2011
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- Thread starter
- #28
Yes, they were literal Churches, but yet each one is also symbolic of the operations of the seven Spirits each one was lacking in.
Deborah13
Member
- Nov 30, 2012
- 14,684
- 1,936
Neither have I.I never miss the points in the bible.
So should we compete for who is blind and who is blinder?Me too.
Thanks for your answer. I don't agree but will leave it possibly for another thread on the individual points you attempt to make.
Sinthesis
Member
- Feb 23, 2009
- 5,188
- 264
Neither have I.
I was blind.:shades Now I see.
Though perhaps through a glass, darkly.
Deborah13
Member
- Nov 30, 2012
- 14,684
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Ah, what wise words thou speak poet, Sinthesis.I was blind.:shades Now I see.
Does the comma belong before poet or Sinthesis? I wish that other man had never said anything about grammar. Now I really self conscious about it.
- Jul 3, 2014
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It would go before the word, "poet", because you are setting off the entire phrase, "poet Sinthesis", as his name....... It's similar to saying, Preacher John,.... as opposed to John, the Preacher.Ah, what wise words thou speak poet, Sinthesis.
Does the comma belong before poet or Sinthesis? I wish that other man had never said anything about grammar. Now I really self conscious about it.
Sorry. Almost my entire family from my maternal grandmother's side are either teachers or professors (except my mother... and she taught Greg Shorthand in night school), and I married a woman with a Master's in Language Arts.
I don't always get things written correctly, but I do try hard, because it bugs me when I don't.
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Deborah13
Member
- Nov 30, 2012
- 14,684
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lol, I knew it was wrong. It does wonders for one's recollection to be involved in teaching 4th grade grammar.
It also can be quite embarassing to realize how bad one's grammar is. The truth is we forget much of what we once knew well when we don't use it.You have an advantage, "Hey honey, where does the comma go ....?"
I can ask Jake. He's quite good at it. If not it means hauling out St. Martin's Handbook which I'm too lazy to do, so I rely on the forgiving hearts on this forum.
Jake told me I should underline St. Martin's Handbook rather than putting it in quotation marks.
- Jul 3, 2014
- 5,268
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He's right. And, yes, I do ask Sue all sorts of stuff all the time.... so does her sister.lol, I knew it was wrong. It does wonders for one's recollection to be involved in teaching 4th grade grammar.
You have an advantage, "Hey honey, where does the comma go ....?"
I can ask Jake. He's quite good at it. If not it means hauling out St. Martin's Handbook which I'm too lazy to do, so I rely on the forgiving hearts on this forum.
Jake told me I should underline St. Martin's Handbook rather than putting it in quotation marks.
- Jul 3, 2014
- 5,268
- 1,707
While we're on Revelation, here's some more from my young friend, Jeff Turner......
One of the most dangerous aspects of fundamentalism (in any religion, but in this case, Christianity) is its overemphasis on eschatology and its hyper literal reading of books like the Revelation. For starters, the Revelation is one of the most highly controversial and contested books in the canon, with men like Luther and Zwingli arguing against its inclusion. The book that modern Christians have made the centerpiece of their theology, past Christians saw as being less relevant than the Gospels and Pauline epistles.
Setting that aside, however, those who are comfortable with its inclusion have, in my opinion, grossly misunderstood and mis-taught its content, so as to render the Jesus featured in its pages unrecognizable from the one we read of in the Gospels. It isn't that the Jesus of the Revelation is different from the Jesus of the Gospels, but that our faulty understanding of the Revelation as a to-be-taken-literally work, whose words apply to still future events, has caused us to see Jesus as a vengeance-taking, grudge-holding, eye-for-an-eye warrior, as opposed to the peace loving, non-violent Messiah of the Gospels.
For instance, a passage like Revelation 18, where Jesus is pictured as a warrior with a sword coming out of His mouth, with His garments rolled in blood, seems to be a purposeful subversion of violent imagery found in the prophets, specifically Isaiah 63. It is intended to show the opposite of what is written in Isaiah, as the prophet depicts the Messianic warrior figure as coming *from* battle with his garments stained in blood after having waged literal, physical war upon a people, and the Jesus of Revelation 18 is pictured as going *INTO* battle with His garments *ALREADY* stained with blood, and not as waging literal, physical war, but in proclaiming a message - His sword comes from His mouth. This is apocalyptic, metaphoric language, intended to put a non-violent spin on stock imagery from Israel's history. Jesus Christ is not a violent wrathophile who comes to make His garments red with the blood of His enemies, but one who comes proclaiming the Gospel of Peace and who has already laid down His life for His enemies - hence His garments being stained with blood *PRIOR* to battle.
In a hyper literal reading of the text, and an understanding of eschatology rooted in a violent image of God, however, this passage becomes the very opposite of what its author seems to have intended. And it is based upon passages like this that Christians have come to expect that they will, at some point in the future, return with Jesus on spirit horses in order to help Him slaughter and slay the wicked of the world with such violence that the streets will literally run red with their blood. Not only is this a psychopathic thing to anticipate, it also causes one to have to misread the sermon on the mount, wherein Jesus tells us that His Father's position towards His enemies is one of forgiveness and non-violence. He does not repay evil with evil nor hatred with hatred. To read Matthew 5 and come away with anything other than that is to misread and misunderstand Matthew 5 entirely.
What we end up subconsciously believing is that, so long as we live this forgiving, turning-the-other-cheek lifestyle in the here and now, we will later be rewarded with the opportunity of slaying the enemies of God. This reminds me of the movie franchise, The Purge, wherein the U.S. government allows its citizens one night of lawlessness, where every crime, murder included, becomes legal and un-punishable. The result is that crime rates drop and most live peaceful lives because they anticipate that one night a year where they can run wild and release their inner beast. In a chilling scene from the movies first ten minutes, a well to do, run of the mill, typical American man can be seen putting the finishing touches on an instrument of torture he intends on using later that night. The image was so unsettling to me because it depicted a normal man who could be any of our neighbors as having the capacity to do terrible things to others, while behaving most of the time.
This is the mindset created within many outwardly peaceable and non-violent Christians when they hold to a hyper literal understanding of books like the Revelation. They believe that, so long as they put up with and bless the "liberal trash" and "new world order scum" on this side of Christ's coming, they'll be able to come back with Him and enact terrifying vengeance on the other side. Thus, the heart is not *truly* changed towards those they deem enemies of the Gospel, they simply resist in the now so that they can purge later. This mindset does not actually change the heart and cause us to look upon a sometimes hostile world with self-giving love, but simply causes us to press pause on our anger and hostility toward them so that we'll have the opportunity to vent it later. While very few probably are conscious of these things and actually think upon them, trust me, the idea flourishes, albeit on a subconscious level.
Imagine how we, as Christians would feel, if we heard that our peaceful Muslim neighbor believed that they would one day return with Muhammad and slaughter the "left behind" inhabitants of the earth! We'd think them secret Jihadists, and seek to move as far away from them as possible. Why? Because we'd recognize the danger of such an eschatological belief, but because of its ubiquity and oft-mentionedness (not a word, I know) in Christian circles, we've ceased to see a literal understanding of such texts for the dangerous things they can be.
The bottom line here is that if your eschatological beliefs make your Jesus someone other than the loving, non-violent, enemy-forgiving Messiah He's presented as being in the Gospels, you're probably reading something wrong. God does not have split personalities, and who He is at His "second coming" will not be any different from who He was in the days of His first. If we expect a Jesus who will do terrible things to the sinners of this world, and anticipate helping Him carry these things out, we are not inwardly being transformed into the peace-loving, others-centered disciples Christ calls us to be, but are being transformed into the image of the violent, man-centered empires that dominate the landscape.
So, in short, don't buy into a violent eschatology. If it doesn't look like Jesus, it's not Jesus.
Period.
One of the most dangerous aspects of fundamentalism (in any religion, but in this case, Christianity) is its overemphasis on eschatology and its hyper literal reading of books like the Revelation. For starters, the Revelation is one of the most highly controversial and contested books in the canon, with men like Luther and Zwingli arguing against its inclusion. The book that modern Christians have made the centerpiece of their theology, past Christians saw as being less relevant than the Gospels and Pauline epistles.
Setting that aside, however, those who are comfortable with its inclusion have, in my opinion, grossly misunderstood and mis-taught its content, so as to render the Jesus featured in its pages unrecognizable from the one we read of in the Gospels. It isn't that the Jesus of the Revelation is different from the Jesus of the Gospels, but that our faulty understanding of the Revelation as a to-be-taken-literally work, whose words apply to still future events, has caused us to see Jesus as a vengeance-taking, grudge-holding, eye-for-an-eye warrior, as opposed to the peace loving, non-violent Messiah of the Gospels.
For instance, a passage like Revelation 18, where Jesus is pictured as a warrior with a sword coming out of His mouth, with His garments rolled in blood, seems to be a purposeful subversion of violent imagery found in the prophets, specifically Isaiah 63. It is intended to show the opposite of what is written in Isaiah, as the prophet depicts the Messianic warrior figure as coming *from* battle with his garments stained in blood after having waged literal, physical war upon a people, and the Jesus of Revelation 18 is pictured as going *INTO* battle with His garments *ALREADY* stained with blood, and not as waging literal, physical war, but in proclaiming a message - His sword comes from His mouth. This is apocalyptic, metaphoric language, intended to put a non-violent spin on stock imagery from Israel's history. Jesus Christ is not a violent wrathophile who comes to make His garments red with the blood of His enemies, but one who comes proclaiming the Gospel of Peace and who has already laid down His life for His enemies - hence His garments being stained with blood *PRIOR* to battle.
In a hyper literal reading of the text, and an understanding of eschatology rooted in a violent image of God, however, this passage becomes the very opposite of what its author seems to have intended. And it is based upon passages like this that Christians have come to expect that they will, at some point in the future, return with Jesus on spirit horses in order to help Him slaughter and slay the wicked of the world with such violence that the streets will literally run red with their blood. Not only is this a psychopathic thing to anticipate, it also causes one to have to misread the sermon on the mount, wherein Jesus tells us that His Father's position towards His enemies is one of forgiveness and non-violence. He does not repay evil with evil nor hatred with hatred. To read Matthew 5 and come away with anything other than that is to misread and misunderstand Matthew 5 entirely.
What we end up subconsciously believing is that, so long as we live this forgiving, turning-the-other-cheek lifestyle in the here and now, we will later be rewarded with the opportunity of slaying the enemies of God. This reminds me of the movie franchise, The Purge, wherein the U.S. government allows its citizens one night of lawlessness, where every crime, murder included, becomes legal and un-punishable. The result is that crime rates drop and most live peaceful lives because they anticipate that one night a year where they can run wild and release their inner beast. In a chilling scene from the movies first ten minutes, a well to do, run of the mill, typical American man can be seen putting the finishing touches on an instrument of torture he intends on using later that night. The image was so unsettling to me because it depicted a normal man who could be any of our neighbors as having the capacity to do terrible things to others, while behaving most of the time.
This is the mindset created within many outwardly peaceable and non-violent Christians when they hold to a hyper literal understanding of books like the Revelation. They believe that, so long as they put up with and bless the "liberal trash" and "new world order scum" on this side of Christ's coming, they'll be able to come back with Him and enact terrifying vengeance on the other side. Thus, the heart is not *truly* changed towards those they deem enemies of the Gospel, they simply resist in the now so that they can purge later. This mindset does not actually change the heart and cause us to look upon a sometimes hostile world with self-giving love, but simply causes us to press pause on our anger and hostility toward them so that we'll have the opportunity to vent it later. While very few probably are conscious of these things and actually think upon them, trust me, the idea flourishes, albeit on a subconscious level.
Imagine how we, as Christians would feel, if we heard that our peaceful Muslim neighbor believed that they would one day return with Muhammad and slaughter the "left behind" inhabitants of the earth! We'd think them secret Jihadists, and seek to move as far away from them as possible. Why? Because we'd recognize the danger of such an eschatological belief, but because of its ubiquity and oft-mentionedness (not a word, I know) in Christian circles, we've ceased to see a literal understanding of such texts for the dangerous things they can be.
The bottom line here is that if your eschatological beliefs make your Jesus someone other than the loving, non-violent, enemy-forgiving Messiah He's presented as being in the Gospels, you're probably reading something wrong. God does not have split personalities, and who He is at His "second coming" will not be any different from who He was in the days of His first. If we expect a Jesus who will do terrible things to the sinners of this world, and anticipate helping Him carry these things out, we are not inwardly being transformed into the peace-loving, others-centered disciples Christ calls us to be, but are being transformed into the image of the violent, man-centered empires that dominate the landscape.
So, in short, don't buy into a violent eschatology. If it doesn't look like Jesus, it's not Jesus.
Period.
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- Apr 22, 2011
- 30,578
- 16,300
- Thread starter
- #39
There will be two great battles that will take place in the end of days as we the saints of God will still be here while they are taking place as Jesus said when you see the abomination of desolation (Papal Rome taking it’s seat in Jerusalem once again) stand in the Holy place, which is a literal place and a Spiritual place as Gods seal is upon those who are Spiritually born-again, John 3:3-6, Romans 10:9,10, and we need not fear what is about to take place even if we are persecuted to death for not bowing down to the new world order of a political, economic and religious system ran by the son of perdition, Matthew 10:28. You have to cross reference Zechariah 14; Revelation 13:11-18; and Revelation 20 to understand the prophecy given in Zechariah 14 about the second coming of Christ and what has to take place before and after his return that in a twinkling of an eye we will be with the Lord forever. Please read all these chapters as it is imperative for Spiritual understanding.
(Matthew 24:15; Rev 7:3; 20:7-10)
The first battle of the end of days starts in Revelation chapter 20 and will be that of Satan’s control of Jerusalem through Papal Rome taking captive those that are of God and forcing them to bow down to their thoughts of an imaginative worship to their pagan gods and rituals and those that are in Christ will be forced to denounce Christ and if they refuse then they will die a martyrs death. This is the mark of the beast with Papal Rome being the beast and the mark of the beast is the actions of their hands and the thoughts of their minds. God sends an angel to bind up Satan and throw him into the Abyss right after Papal Rome’s abomination of desolation in Jerusalem so he can no longer deceive the nations.
(Rev 13:11-18)
The second and last battle of the end of days will be the gathering of the bride of Christ (those who have repented) as she has made herself ready as she endured until the end of days, both dead and alive and will be taken in the air to meet Jesus while the angel chains Satan and throws him into the Abyss for a time. Jesus then comes down to earth to stand on the Mt. Of Olives with his army (we the saints) to fight the final battle as he cast the beast and the false prophet into the lake of fire and makes an end to the abominations of Papal Rome. Jesus will then let Satan loose from the Abyss and with Satan’s army will rage war on all the nations but will be consumed by the fire of heaven and will be cast into the lake of fire and sulphur with his army for eternity. After this God will bring everyone into his throne of judgment and those not found in the Lambs book of Life will be cast also into the lake of fire and sulphur with the beast, false prophet, Satan and all his army thus ushering in the new heaven and the new Jerusalem that we will be with the Lord forever.
(Rev 20:5,6, 15; 9:20, 21; 20:15)
Revelation, which means veil rolled aside, starts with the seven churches that spiritually represent all Gods children as they are given the seven spirits of God to help keep them inline with the will of God. The seven spirits are wisdom, understanding, counsel, knowledge, reverence, might and the Spirit of the Lord. We will go through everything of Revelations including the seven seals of judgment, seven trumpets of judgment, the harvest judgment, the seven vials of judgment right up to and including the two final battles when judgment comes on all the inhabitants on the earth dead and alive.
God does not want us to fear those things which must come, but be prepared for those things which have to come. If we are truly sealed by the Spirit of God through repentance then we need not fear what man can do to the flesh as we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us as we have died to self and we no longer live, but Christ lives in us. We will be the witness of Christ to the world when the last of the abominations take place and our only concern needs to be of us being the witness to the nations that God has called us to be.
(2Thessalonians 2:3; Mark 4:21-25; Romans 8:14-17)
(Matthew 24:15; Rev 7:3; 20:7-10)
The first battle of the end of days starts in Revelation chapter 20 and will be that of Satan’s control of Jerusalem through Papal Rome taking captive those that are of God and forcing them to bow down to their thoughts of an imaginative worship to their pagan gods and rituals and those that are in Christ will be forced to denounce Christ and if they refuse then they will die a martyrs death. This is the mark of the beast with Papal Rome being the beast and the mark of the beast is the actions of their hands and the thoughts of their minds. God sends an angel to bind up Satan and throw him into the Abyss right after Papal Rome’s abomination of desolation in Jerusalem so he can no longer deceive the nations.
(Rev 13:11-18)
The second and last battle of the end of days will be the gathering of the bride of Christ (those who have repented) as she has made herself ready as she endured until the end of days, both dead and alive and will be taken in the air to meet Jesus while the angel chains Satan and throws him into the Abyss for a time. Jesus then comes down to earth to stand on the Mt. Of Olives with his army (we the saints) to fight the final battle as he cast the beast and the false prophet into the lake of fire and makes an end to the abominations of Papal Rome. Jesus will then let Satan loose from the Abyss and with Satan’s army will rage war on all the nations but will be consumed by the fire of heaven and will be cast into the lake of fire and sulphur with his army for eternity. After this God will bring everyone into his throne of judgment and those not found in the Lambs book of Life will be cast also into the lake of fire and sulphur with the beast, false prophet, Satan and all his army thus ushering in the new heaven and the new Jerusalem that we will be with the Lord forever.
(Rev 20:5,6, 15; 9:20, 21; 20:15)
Revelation, which means veil rolled aside, starts with the seven churches that spiritually represent all Gods children as they are given the seven spirits of God to help keep them inline with the will of God. The seven spirits are wisdom, understanding, counsel, knowledge, reverence, might and the Spirit of the Lord. We will go through everything of Revelations including the seven seals of judgment, seven trumpets of judgment, the harvest judgment, the seven vials of judgment right up to and including the two final battles when judgment comes on all the inhabitants on the earth dead and alive.
God does not want us to fear those things which must come, but be prepared for those things which have to come. If we are truly sealed by the Spirit of God through repentance then we need not fear what man can do to the flesh as we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us as we have died to self and we no longer live, but Christ lives in us. We will be the witness of Christ to the world when the last of the abominations take place and our only concern needs to be of us being the witness to the nations that God has called us to be.
(2Thessalonians 2:3; Mark 4:21-25; Romans 8:14-17)