The CURSE OF THE LAW

[cupid dave]

Well that is your opinion.
But the scriptures declare:

1) the strength of sin is the law.
2) The power over sin is the Grace of God.

So I think I will stick to the scriptures, you can believe whatever you like.

Yes, you are right.

1) The strength of sin is that we can break the laws, pay tithes, present sacrifices, and ignore that we repeat the sin over and again because it is no sin to sin, as long as one pays f in sacrifices.

The Catholic girl who sins ver the weekend party at the shore confesses every Friday before returning to the same beach.

2) The power over sin is to see this truth above, by the grace of God which has made mankind smart enough to recognize the Truth and therefore abide by it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...the scriptures declare the strength of sin is the law.

Only insofar as if you are 1) an unbeliever still in the power and authority of the law to give strength to your sin, and 2) you are relying on the required obedience of various laws to be justified before God.

It's important to be clear on this, because the obedience of the Christian in and of itself surely does not cause sin to have strength, the misunderstanding of which causes some to insist we should be careful to NOT 'keep' the moral requirements of the law. That is ludicrous.

 

[cupid dave]

No man can know the truth apart from the Spirit of God.

The spirit if God is that force behind the ever unfolding Reality which sires Truth in its wake.

Truth is not the spirit of God, but his Son.
Both are spirits.
The spirit of Truth is holy and available to men who can accept that holy spirit and be saved from error and lies.

Correct, according to scripture?

Ii am the Truth, the way, and the life."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The law (for the purpose of justification) is not of faith. and those who look to the written code (to be justified) are indeed cursed by the law.

It is VERY important that you qualify your statements with the parentheticals I've inserted. Or else you have people thinking they don't have to keep the law, 'do not steal', 'do not bear false witness', 'do not covet', etc. because they'll be cursed if they do. To think that is the very license to sin the Bible is careful to say grace is not.

 

[Mitspa]

...even till now there were millions of systematic believers who traditionally did spiritual/religious iniquity after (the) old traditions of their denominations which thing suggests that maybe there is some serious omission in their faith, not that we judge, but it may turn out that there is a need of better repentance

Blessings

I agree.

Mitspa where do we learn what many of the omissions are in the obediences of the saints these days? From where the does the guidance ultimately come by which we discern what saints should and should not be doing? I'm not asking how to do what we should be doing. I'm asking what it is that is lacking in our obedience and where the knowledge of that lack comes from.

Well it is my position that those who are trying to judge others by the flesh are in fact in the flesh. That God does not give the right to judge to "christians" who are under the law.
He who is "spiritual" judges all things, but is judged by no man.

So for a "carnal" person to think they have the understanding to judge the things in Gods Church? is just foolishness.

Those who are spiritual judge by the Spirit, according to the laws of the Spirit. Those who are carnal and look to the written code of the law, to judge others , are just in error.

One must have their "spiritual" senses trained to decern good and evil. A carnal christian who looks to the written code, has no awarness of true righteousness.

They are just like the pharisee, who think they have knowledge but are really just blind men, trying to lead others in their blindness.

 

[cupid dave]

Only insofar as if you are 1) an unbeliever still in the power and authority of the law to give strength to your sin, and 2) you are relying on the required obedience of various laws to be justified before God.

No, I disagree.

The strength of sin is that we come to accept sin is washed away by sacrifice and tithes and paid off and foriven and forgotten,...

....though we do them over again, in a continuous cycle generation after generation.

That's The Truth.
We are all siners, according to the Law.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sorry jethro your just wrong, and I am not going around this circle again.
James 2:7 Why do you blasheme that worthy name by which you are called? Jesus
What is His commandment? To love as He loves us.
The royal law is His Commandment. James uses the example of the law to show that one cannot just love rich folks and dispise the poor.
The law of liberty is that which Paul taught.
The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has given me LIBERTY from the law of sin and death.

The law of sin and death is the Ten Commandments written and engraved on stone. 2 Cor 3:7

So your just wrong.

So it is blasphemy to purposely seek to uphold the Commandments through the power of the Holy Spirit, the NEW way to serve God? I am accursed for wanting/ trying to do that? Really? Then let me be accursed. Let me join Christ in the reproach of the gospel.

Sorry, you promote a gospel of license, not obedience. A false gospel.

 

[cupid dave]

Those who are spiritual judge by the Spirit, according to the laws of the Spirit. Those who are carnal and look to the written code of the law, to judge others , are just in error.

Yes indeed.

Truth is mental construct inside ur head, a spirit of the mind, but it is also an Ideal and a concept that existed long before man did:


John1:1

In the beginning was the Word, (i.e.; Truth: [John 14:6]), and the Word, (Truth, itself), was (synonymous) with God, (i.e.; Reality), and the Word, (Truth: [John 14:6]), was (indistinguishable from Reality), God, (the almighty for all men).

2 "He," (Truth, the symbolic Word to come: [Jud 1:3]) was with God, (i.e.; the ever unfolding Reality), in the beginning, (that is, the initial unfolding of material Reality in what was the actiual physical Creation).

Jn 1:3 ALL (real) THINGS, (phenomenally, i.e.; mentally), came into existence, (for man), through him, (i.e.; this concept of Truth), and apart from him, (this ideal of Truth), not even ONE (real) thing came into (actual) existence (for men).

 

[Mitspa]

The law (for the purpose of justification) is not of faith. and those who look to the written code (to be justified) are indeed cursed by the law.

It is VERY important that you qualify your statements with the parentheticals I've inserted. Or else you have people thinking they don't have to keep the law, 'do not steal', 'do not bear false witness', 'do not covet', etc. because they'll be cursed if they do. To think that is the very license to sin the Bible is careful to say grace is not.

Well I will "qualify" my own statements.
And a believer is justified aparts from the law, by faith and not by the deeds of the law.

For the strength of sin is the law, and the power over sin, is to freely justified by His Grace.

 

[Mitspa]

Sorry jethro your just wrong, and I am not going around this circle again.
James 2:7 Why do you blasheme that worthy name by which you are called? Jesus
What is His commandment? To love as He loves us.
The royal law is His Commandment. James uses the example of the law to show that one cannot just love rich folks and dispise the poor.
The law of liberty is that which Paul taught.
The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has given me LIBERTY from the law of sin and death.

The law of sin and death is the Ten Commandments written and engraved on stone. 2 Cor 3:7

So your just wrong.

So it is blasphemy to purposely seek to uphold the Commandments through the power of the Holy Spirit, the NEW way to serve God? I am accursed for wanting/ trying to do that? Really? Then let me be accursed. Let me join Christ in the reproach of the gospel.

Sorry, you promote a gospel of license, not obedience. A false gospel.

For sin will not have dominion over you, because you are not under law, but under grace.
The strength of sin is the law.
The letter kills but the Spirit gives life.
The law is not of faith.
Christ is the END OF THE LAW, for righteousness. etc...
Those who are under the law are under its curse.

 

[cupid dave]

So it is blasphemy to purposely seek to uphold the Commandments through the power of the Holy Spirit, the NEW way to serve God?

Good point.
There is no longer anything blasphemous, since when two or more gather together in the name of Truth, all ideas are welcome in that pursuit.

Charges of blasphemy or heresy are now set aside so that "it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions."


Blasphemy is therefore restricted to criticism against The Truth:

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, (Truth), shall not be forgiven unto men.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The strength of sin is that we come to accept sin is washed away by sacrifice and tithes and paid off and foriven and forgotten,...

Actually, the power of sin being the law means the law acts like a marriage contract that holds us in bondage to the desires of sinful flesh. Not until the sinful flesh dies with Christ on the cross are we set free from the bondage of the flesh that the law kept us in marital bondage to:

"the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead." (Romans 7: NIV)

Read it carefully and thoughtfully and you'll see that's exactly what Paul is saying the 'power' of the law is. It's the power to keep us bound to sinful flesh...as long as sinful flesh is alive. That's why sinful flesh must die with Christ on the cross, so we can be joined in marital bondage to Christ through the new way, the new marital contract of the Spirit and held fast in bondage to righteousness by that contract. Pretty cool stuff if you ask me.

(Note that the example of sin that he uses is not a dead cycle of repeated sacrifices and worship--as true as that fundamental point surely is, but of coveting.)

 

[Mitspa]

...the scriptures declare the strength of sin is the law.

Only insofar as if you are 1) an unbeliever still in the power and authority of the law to give strength to your sin, and 2) you are relying on the required obedience of various laws to be justified before God.

It's important to be clear on this, because the obedience of the Christian in and of itself surely does not cause sin to have strength, the misunderstanding of which causes some to insist we should be careful to NOT 'keep' the moral requirements of the law. That is ludicrous.

Sorry the bible disagrees with you.
Rom 7:7-8

APART FROM THE LAW, SIN IS DEAD.
the strength of sin, is the law.

 

[Mitspa]

The strength of sin is that we come to accept sin is washed away by sacrifice and tithes and paid off and foriven and forgotten,...

Actually, the power of sin being the law means the law acts like a marriage contract that holds us in bondage to the desires of sinful flesh. Not until the sinful flesh dies with Christ on the cross are we set free from the bondage of the flesh that the law kept us in marital bondage to:

"the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead." (Romans 7: NIV)

Read it carefully and thoughtfully and you'll see that's exactly what Paul is saying the 'power' of the law is. It's the power to keep us bound to sinful flesh...as long as sinful flesh is alive. That's why sinful flesh must die with Christ on the cross, so we can be joined in marital bondage to Christ through the new way, the new marital contract of the Spirit and held fast in bondage to righteousness by that contract. Pretty cool stuff if you ask me.

(Note that the example of sin that he uses is not a dead cycle of repeated sacrifices and worship--as true as that fundamental point surely is, but of coveting.)

You mean like to look upon another mans wife and to lust after her? Is that the "flesh" that is to be crucified to the law, with Christ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So for a "carnal" person to think they have the understanding to judge the things in Gods Church? is just foolishness.

Those who are spiritual judge by the Spirit, according to the laws of the Spirit. Those who are carnal and look to the written code of the law, to judge others , are just in error.

One must have their "spiritual" senses trained to decern good and evil. A carnal christian who looks to the written code, has no awarness of true righteousness.

They are just like the pharisee, who think they have knowledge but are really just blind men, trying to lead others in their blindness.

You're being too hard on poor James who does in fact use the law to instruct and 'judge' the church in regard to the way of right doing. It's undeniable.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You mean like to look upon another mans wife and to lust after her? Is that the "flesh" that is to be crucified to the law, with Christ?

Yep, and make sure you are careful to do that when it's your turn to be tempted to covet another man's wife (Exodus 20:17 NIV). By God's grace--the new way to serve him--I did not cave in to this temptation common to man (and Christ when he was here). Hopefully you will not cave in, too.

(Remember no personal attacks. It's good to know someone is standing at the ready, prepared to throw the first stone.)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...the scriptures declare the strength of sin is the law.

Only insofar as if you are 1) an unbeliever still in the power and authority of the law to give strength to your sin, and 2) you are relying on the required obedience of various laws to be justified before God.

It's important to be clear on this, because the obedience of the Christian in and of itself surely does not cause sin to have strength, the misunderstanding of which causes some to insist we should be careful to NOT 'keep' the moral requirements of the law. That is ludicrous.

Sorry the bible disagrees with you.
Rom 7:7-8

APART FROM THE LAW, SIN IS DEAD.
the strength of sin, is the law.

For corn's sake, Mitspa, finish the story!

"Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!" (Romans 7:24-25 NIV)

If anyone is still being aroused to sin by the commandment they need salvation in Jesus Christ, not a determined avoidance of the commandment! That is the true gospel!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm telling you, Mitspa, you're not getting this because you don't understand what ended was the WAY of the law, not the moral requirements of the law themselves.

The curse of the law is the failure to do all of the law, relying on it to be justified. But for those who believe in Christ they have the free gift of justification and are thus set free to now uphold the law and reap it's blessing. Not the blessing of justification. That can't be secured by obedience to laws. But rather the manifest blessing in this life that God gives to those who obey him in the requirements of the (moral) law.

 

[Mitspa]

So for a "carnal" person to think they have the understanding to judge the things in Gods Church? is just foolishness.

Those who are spiritual judge by the Spirit, according to the laws of the Spirit. Those who are carnal and look to the written code of the law, to judge others , are just in error.

One must have their "spiritual" senses trained to decern good and evil. A carnal christian who looks to the written code, has no awarness of true righteousness.

They are just like the pharisee, who think they have knowledge but are really just blind men, trying to lead others in their blindness.

You're being too hard on poor James who does in fact use the law to instruct and 'judge' the church in regard to the way of right doing. It's undeniable.

Well I agree with James that if one honors the rich and dispises to poor, they are not walking in love.

I agree with James that we will be judged by the Law of Liberty, which Paul taught that all men would be judged by His Gospel.
I agree with James that a "living faith" empowered by the Spirit of God is the true faith.

I disagree with you, and your doctrines of error.

 

[Mitspa]

...the scriptures declare the strength of sin is the law.

Only insofar as if you are 1) an unbeliever still in the power and authority of the law to give strength to your sin, and 2) you are relying on the required obedience of various laws to be justified before God.

It's important to be clear on this, because the obedience of the Christian in and of itself surely does not cause sin to have strength, the misunderstanding of which causes some to insist we should be careful to NOT 'keep' the moral requirements of the law. That is ludicrous.

Sorry the bible disagrees with you.
Rom 7:7-8

APART FROM THE LAW, SIN IS DEAD.
the strength of sin, is the law.

For corn's sake, Mitspa, finish the story!

"Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!" (Romans 7:24-25 NIV)

If anyone is still being aroused to sin by the commandment they need salvation in Jesus Christ, not a determined avoidance of the commandment! That is the true gospel!

Well you mean to say that when one is saved that the flesh is saved also?
That Paul goes on to teach "saved" Christians, not to walk in the flesh, when the flesh is not an issue?
That Paul goes on to say the strength of sin is the law, and that the letter kills.
No that is a false gospel.