The CURSE OF THE LAW

[Jethro Bodine]

That Paul goes on to teach "saved" Christians, not to walk in the flesh, when the flesh is not an issue?

The flesh is not an issue? What planet do you live on?

Get real, man.

Why do you think the Bible warns us believers so much about the dangers of the flesh?

 

[Deborah13]

so to take this scripture from Luke and suggest that those who seek to justifiy themselves by the law, have some authority in the gospel, is just great error!

Mitspa, where did I say that one could be JUSTIFIED unto SALVATION by obeying the law?
My original post was in response to Joe who was pointing out that there were people who God said had obeyed all the commandments and ordinances and he is correct. Now if we are so in fear of loosing our position of being saved by grace through faith and not of works that we cannot agree with God's word, something is amiss.
I pointed out Job and what God told him even though he too was found righteous in his obedience. We cannot be righteous enough to be justified unto salvation even by obeying all the rules. That is my point!
The righteousness that is unto Justification unto salvation can only be found at the cross. That is the only way to salvation, by grace through faith, NO works included in that salvation.
Doing the works, whether it is righteous deeds or obeying the law has no part in that salvation that is only through the blood of our Savior. We must have been made righteous in Christ because only His righteousness is sufficient. AND it is a GIFT.
God showed Job this. God showed Job His grace was what allowed him to be saved through faith, not what Job did. Job repented and admitted he had not understood.

 

[Mitspa]

That Paul goes on to teach "saved" Christians, not to walk in the flesh, when the flesh is not an issue?

The flesh is not an issue? What planet do you live on?

Get real, man.

Why do you think the Bible warns us believers so much about the dangers of the flesh?

Well I believe that you were trying to make that very point!

That somehow the sinful desires aroused in the flesh, by the law was somehow not an issue, for those who are saved.

Are you trying to know say that one can keep the written code of the law, by the flesh?

When Paul teaches against this very issue.

 

[Mitspa]

I'm telling you, Mitspa, you're not getting this because you don't understand what ended was the WAY of the law, not the moral requirements of the law themselves.

The curse of the law is the failure to do all of the law, relying on it to be justified. But for those who believe in Christ they have the free gift of justification and are thus set free to now uphold the law and reap it's blessing. Not the blessing of justification. That can't be secured by obedience to laws. But rather the manifest blessing in this life that God gives to those who obey him in the requirements of the (moral) law.

This is just your opinion, and does not relate to the truth of scripture.

The strength of sin is the law.
The written code kills, and causes sinful desires in the flesh.
One must die to the law, and live to Christ apart from the written code to have life.

 

[Mitspa]

so to take this scripture from Luke and suggest that those who seek to justifiy themselves by the law, have some authority in the gospel, is just great error!

Mitspa, where did I say that one could be JUSTIFIED unto SALVATION by obeying the law?
My original post was in response to Joe who was pointing out that there were people who God said had obeyed all the commandments and ordinances and he is correct. Now if we are so in fear of loosing our position of being saved by grace through faith and not of works that we cannot agree with God's word, something is amiss.
I pointed out Job and what God told him even though he too was found righteous in his obedience. We cannot be righteous enough to be justified unto salvation even by obeying all the rules. That is my point!
The righteousness that is unto Justification unto salvation can only be found at the cross. That is the only way to salvation, by grace through faith, NO works included in that salvation.
Doing the works, whether it is righteous deeds or obeying the law has no part in that salvation that is only through the blood of our Savior. We must have been made righteous in Christ because only His righteousness is sufficient. AND it is a GIFT.
God showed Job this. God showed Job His grace was what allowed him to be saved through faith, not what Job did. Job repented and admitted he had not understood.

Well those people lived under the law, and kept ALL THE LAW. including sacrifices of animals for sin. They did not keep the standard revealed unto us through Christ and the gospel.

So to look at that example and ignore the New Testament and all the writtings of Paul, and the Words of the Lord Himself, is just error.

None are righteous, no not one! is the verdict of the law. The fact that the scriptures calls these people righteous in Gods sight and that they walked IN ALL the commandments, does not mean that the later revelation of scripture concerning the law and its purpose, is not what we are subject too.

For all men will be judged by Pauls gospel, and there is no excuse for those who seek to establish their own righteousness by the law.

Rom 1:16-18

For the gospel itself declares that no man can be justified by the law.

The purpose of the law, was to condemn and make all guilty, This is as much a part of the gospel as any other part.

To take a scripture from Luke and just wipe away this truth is a great error.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm telling you, Mitspa, you're not getting this because you don't understand what ended was the WAY of the law, not the moral requirements of the law themselves.

The curse of the law is the failure to do all of the law, relying on it to be justified. But for those who believe in Christ they have the free gift of justification and are thus set free to now uphold the law and reap it's blessing. Not the blessing of justification. That can't be secured by obedience to laws. But rather the manifest blessing in this life that God gives to those who obey him in the requirements of the (moral) law.

This is just your opinion, and does not relate to the truth of scripture.

I showed you what plain scripture says, but you are determined to view them through the lens of the indoctrination of law that is in the church that you are sure is true and which won't allow you to see and accept what is plainly written.

The strength of sin is the law.
The written code kills, and causes sinful desires in the flesh.
One must die to the law, and live to Christ apart from the written code to have life.

These are true and are to be spoken to the unbeliever, and/or the person who is relying on the law for justification, not simply seeking to live for God through the upholding of the commandments through the new way of the Spirit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That Paul goes on to teach "saved" Christians, not to walk in the flesh, when the flesh is not an issue?

The flesh is not an issue? What planet do you live on?

Get real, man.

Why do you think the Bible warns us believers so much about the dangers of the flesh?

Well I believe that you were trying to make that very point!

That somehow the sinful desires aroused in the flesh, by the law was somehow not an issue, for those who are saved.

They are not impossible for those who are saved. But it will hardly always be a cake walk to do what God commands. Except, it seems, for you because you think 'sin will not have dominion over you' means you won't even be tempted by sin (I'm not attacking you, I'm only going by what you yourself suggest) .

The commandments arouse the righteousness of Christ within those who are 'married' to Christ, just as the commandments arouse the unrighteousness of Adam within those who are 'married' to the flesh. Remember Paul's analogy of how the law acts like a contract of marriage binding those not in Christ to the flesh, not those now married to Christ?


Saved people are prisoners to righteousness, while unsaved people are prisoners of unrighteousness. This doesn't mean temptation and struggle won't come to us prisoners of righteousness. It means as Christians our basic inclination and desire is now toward righteousness, where before our basic inclination and desire was toward sin. Christians minds are set on achieving righteousness. Unsaved people's minds are set on how to satisfy the flesh.

Are you trying to know say that one can keep the written code of the law, by the flesh?

For corn's sake, why would you think that?

 

[Deborah13]

Contrary to what many think, the law does command how one is to be inside.

I may not be understanding you correctly in this statement so please don't think I am arguing with you. But I would like to say this.

The law and obedience to the law cannot change the inner man. To me I see it the other way around. When the Holy Spirit indwells us and brings our dead spirit to life in Him we are already changed in the inner man. This is why we can walk in the Spirit. When we walk in the Spirit the Spirit changes the outer man. We are told to "rest in Him" to "stop striving". To "reckon the ourselves dead in Christ".
When we do this we allow the Lord to live through us, which naturally brings about the actions that are in accordance with Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself.

 

[jasoncran]

Deborah your coming at that from a osas position. while I have that leaning. I do think that the law shows us sin and we must then go to the Father to be cleansed of it.

 

[farouk]

Contrary to what many think, the law does command how one is to be inside.

I may not be understanding you correctly in this statement so please don't think I am arguing with you. But I would like to say this.

The law and obedience to the law cannot change the inner man. To me I see it the other way around. When the Holy Spirit indwells us and brings our dead spirit to life in Him we are already changed in the inner man. This is why we can walk in the Spirit. When we walk in the Spirit the Spirit changes the outer man. We are told to "rest in Him" to "stop striving". To "reckon the ourselves dead in Christ".
When we do this we allow the Lord to live through us, which naturally brings about the actions that are in accordance with Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself.

Deborah13:

Yes, the law is our schoolmaster by which we are brought to Christ (Galatians 3.24).

As it were, Sinai points us to Calvary, rather than the other way round.

Blessings.

 

[Mitspa]

I'm telling you, Mitspa, you're not getting this because you don't understand what ended was the WAY of the law, not the moral requirements of the law themselves.

The curse of the law is the failure to do all of the law, relying on it to be justified. But for those who believe in Christ they have the free gift of justification and are thus set free to now uphold the law and reap it's blessing. Not the blessing of justification. That can't be secured by obedience to laws. But rather the manifest blessing in this life that God gives to those who obey him in the requirements of the (moral) law.

This is just your opinion, and does not relate to the truth of scripture.

I showed you what plain scripture says, but you are determined to view them through the lens of the indoctrination of law that is in the church that you are sure is true and which won't allow you to see and accept what is plainly written.

The strength of sin is the law.
The written code kills, and causes sinful desires in the flesh.
One must die to the law, and live to Christ apart from the written code to have life.

These are true and are to be spoken to the unbeliever, and/or the person who is relying on the law for justification, not simply seeking to live for God through the upholding of the commandments through the new way of the Spirit.

So Paul was writting to "nonbelievers"?? No he was writting to believers and means the very words he wrote.

The letter kills.
The strength of sin is the law.

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah your coming at that from a osas position. while I have that leaning. I do think that the law shows us sin and we must then go to the Father to be cleansed of it.

I do lean that direction as you say.

I believe that the Lord has written His laws on our hearts and our minds and so we can be responsive to the Holy Spirit and His direction.
I believe we need to repent, change our minds about what we did. If we are truly remorseful that will be a true changing of the heart which will bring about actions that are in accordance with the will of God in our lives.
You and I know that the two commandments of love that Jesus spoke fulfill all the law.

 

[Mitspa]

Contrary to what many think, the law does command how one is to be inside.

I may not be understanding you correctly in this statement so please don't think I am arguing with you. But I would like to say this.

The law and obedience to the law cannot change the inner man. To me I see it the other way around. When the Holy Spirit indwells us and brings our dead spirit to life in Him we are already changed in the inner man. This is why we can walk in the Spirit. When we walk in the Spirit the Spirit changes the outer man. We are told to "rest in Him" to "stop striving". To "reckon the ourselves dead in Christ".
When we do this we allow the Lord to live through us, which naturally brings about the actions that are in accordance with Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself.

Thank you Deb. This is exaclty what Paul is teaching!
That the written code excites the flesh, and gives it power over the spirit and soul of a believer.

Its like having a broken arm, if one goes to sleep the pain of that broken bone is not felt, or is not a conscience emotion.
But the law comes and twist that broken arm, and makes that pain exceeding painful.

Thus we are told to "reckon" ourselves dead to the law and alive to God in Spirit.

AWAKE TO RIGHTEOUSNESS AND SIN NOT!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Contrary to what many think, the law does command how one is to be inside.

I may not be understanding you correctly in this statement so please don't think I am arguing with you. But I would like to say this.

The law and obedience to the law cannot change the inner man.

Right. This is true. But what you did right off the bat is do what so many of us in the church do. At the mention of anything that's in the law we instantly think 'trying to be justified by the law'. This is the hurdle Mitspa, IMO, can't get over. It's a very strong hindrance in the church.

All I did above was mention that the requirements of God in the law also include matters of the heart. That's all I said, but it instantly comes across as 'the law can't make us righteous'. Which is definitely true, but gets confused with the plain fact that it's still a requirement of God. See what I'm saying? I'm not bashing you, so don't take it that way.

Did the requirements of the law go away just because mankind can't keep them and be justified by them? No, of course not, but that is exactly the erroneous conclusion so many instantly come to when you mention law. What 'went away' is the deceitfulness of trying to be justified by what God commands us to do in the law. We now have the unveiled way of faith in Christ to uphold what God requires in the law which we could not uphold before by the old way of the ministry of mere written words. What changed is HOW we uphold the requirements of God, not the requirements themselves (Romans 7:6 NIV).

So, anyway...

"17 “‘Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart." (Leviticus 19:17 NIV)

"18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people" (Leviticus 19:18 NIV)

See? These are commands how to govern what we are not to have in our hearts. The Sermon on the Mount is one of the richest parts of scripture. Jesus, being the wise God he is, spoke in such depth--depth that we can mine for the treasure it holds. When we mine it out we can see a few misconceptions we've formed about some of the things Jesus spoke there. Like somehow he is teaching all new things that aren't in the law. Really that's not completely true. Except for the obvious teaching on divorce, of course.

For instance, this 'just lusting is adultery' thing. He's doing to them what he did to the rich young ruler. He's showing them they really don't keep the law of Moses, not that there is something outside of the law that they need to keep to be truly righteous (although that is certainly an element of it). (The rich young ruler was guilty of the First Commandment to have no other gods before God--Exodus 20:3 NIV).

Now, truthfully, a Pharisee probably is the last person you'd catch in actual adultery...and they'd probably be quick to tell you that. Thus they boast of their faithfulness to the law and their righteousness. But Christ is reminding them that the law also says to not covet another man's wife (Exodus 20:17 NIV), a matter of the heart, not the hand, but still a part of the law of Moses nevertheless, and the law they are so sure they are keeping and, therefore, declared righteous for doing so. You with me?

The big problem of the Pharisees was their obedience to the externals of the law, not the internals of the law, like the law against holding grudges and thinking evil of others in their hearts. This lack of internal obedience is what Jesus slams them for in Matthew 23. They are clean on the outside, but filthy dirty and disobedient on the inside, and in matters of the law, not just 'new' requirements of God. Jesus said our righteousness must exceed those of the Pharisees. IOW, we have to be clean on the inside, not just the outside like they are.

So, you see, the requirements of the law did not go away. The old ineffective WAY of upholding the requirements of the law went away. Now the law gets satisfied the way it's supposed to through the NEW WAY of faith in Christ. By that way we are obedient on both the outside and the inside, exceeding the mere external righteousness the Pharisees had.

Sorry it's long, but I've been waiting for a chance to go to Matthew 5-7 and spill it all out.

To me I see it the other way around. When the Holy Spirit indwells us and brings our dead spirit to life in Him we are already changed in the inner man. This is why we can walk in the Spirit. When we walk in the Spirit the Spirit changes the outer man. We are told to "rest in Him" to "stop striving". To "reckon the ourselves dead in Christ".

Absolutely correct. But somehow this gets interpreted to mean we no longer have to obey the law. But what you're really saying whether you realize it or not is we UPHOLD the law, not discard it as 'not applying' to us anymore. That is ridiculous. But that is what so many in the church are taught to believe.

When we do this we allow the Lord to live through us, which naturally brings about the actions that are in accordance with Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself.

Naturally, as in no assist necessary from outside of us? Maybe, maybe not.

I wish it was that way, but twenty-seven years of walking in the faith has shown me we still need the written word of God...Now don't misunderstand, lol! Not to be righteous that by law! But to know what God requires so we can fulfill it in the new way of the Spirit and not in the futility of the old way of written words powerless to change us. Understand?

I hate long posts, but since this is directly to you I'll be satisfied if only you read it all the way through.

Blessings!

 

[jasoncran]

Deborah your coming at that from a osas position. while I have that leaning. I do think that the law shows us sin and we must then go to the Father to be cleansed of it.

I do lean that direction as you say.

I believe that the Lord has written His laws on our hearts and our minds and so we can be responsive to the Holy Spirit and His direction.
I believe we need to repent, change our minds about what we did. If we are truly remorseful that will be a true changing of the heart which will bring about actions that are in accordance with the will of God in our lives.
You and I know that the two commandments of love that Jesus spoke fulfill all the law.

true but sadly most Christians don't the law. the other commands. remember a jew would when that was said and would show the gentiles what that meant.
I say this because when we look at the church today, holiness isn't taught, and we have this self-serving gospel. a balance is needed.

we need to know that we are justified at the cross and sanctified by reading the word and studying it and when shown where we err we then go the cross to get transformed.

 

[Deborah13]

As it were, Sinai points us to Calvary, rather than the other way round.

You state it so simply, this is the simplicity of the Gospel.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As it were, Sinai points us to Calvary, rather than the other way round.

You state it so simply, this is the simplicity of the Gospel.

And the power of Calvary upholds what was given at Mt. Sinai (Romans 3:31).

 

[Mitspa]

Contrary to what many think, the law does command how one is to be inside.

I may not be understanding you correctly in this statement so please don't think I am arguing with you. But I would like to say this.

The law and obedience to the law cannot change the inner man. To me I see it the other way around. When the Holy Spirit indwells us and brings our dead spirit to life in Him we are already changed in the inner man. This is why we can walk in the Spirit. When we walk in the Spirit the Spirit changes the outer man. We are told to "rest in Him" to "stop striving". To "reckon the ourselves dead in Christ".
When we do this we allow the Lord to live through us, which naturally brings about the actions that are in accordance with Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself.

Thank you Deb. This is exaclty what Paul is teaching!
That the written code excites the flesh, and gives it power over the spirit and soul of a believer.

Its like having a broken arm, if one goes to sleep the pain of that broken bone is not felt, or is not a conscience emotion.
But the law comes and twist that broken arm, and makes that pain exceeding painful.

Thus we are told to "reckon" ourselves dead to the law and alive to God in Spirit.

AWAKE TO RIGHTEOUSNESS AND SIN NOT!

Heb 10:1-2

What good has all this knowledge of sin done, but produced more sinful desires.

No a believer needs new knowlege based upon the nature of Gods love.

The letter kills and strengthens sin.
The spirit and grace bring liberty from sin.

 

[Deborah13]

I hate long posts, but since this is directly to you I'll be satisfied if only you read it all the way through.

Smile.. I did read it all the way through.

I agree that we need the Word, the Scriptures to guide us. I always pray for the Holy Spirit to open my eyes to the Truth of the Word, what God is really saying. I know I cannot trust my flesh. My flesh cannot understand the spiritual things of God without Him showing me.
We are to renew our fleshy minds by the Word of God.
And, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

I didn't think you were saying justified by the law, I just wanted to clarify that the law could not change the inner man, only the Holy Spirit can do that. I think we are on the same page.

 

[jasoncran]

ok, gee I guess I better not read pauls epistles, chiefly galatians where he listed the fruits of the flesh.

might cause me to sin.