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The "Elect"

So God knows before we are born if we will come to faith in Him.He is not just picking this person and that person to go to heaven.

Yes Kathi, He pre-determines a few to be saved and part of His remnant of followers. Read Jeremiah one, for an example. Others are wooed or called to Salvation by the Holy Spirit. In both cases, man is without excuse. Everyone has an opportunity to be saved.
 
OK Butch, very good suggestion. I am wondering if you folk would like to help me really define this theology. So far, I have been alone in establishing a doctrine that I feel is more Scriptural than just a Calvinist theology of Salvation or an Arminian theology.

I would like to suggest two words that would describe the two groups of people that I see as making up the Church of Jesus Christ. The first group is the "pre-destined" The second is the "post-destined". These are new words perhaps to remedy what Butch was concerned about descriptive words.

This has been my problem right along my fellow theologians. I really like the TULIP theory of Salvation except the "L" Limited Atonement. I do not believe that God specifically chooses people to be lost and without an opportunity to respond to the Gospel and be saved. John 3:16 "For God so loved the World, that he gave his only Son, that Whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." So, in order to be faithful to Ephesians 1:4,5 We have to admit that, before the foundation of the world had been accomplished by Almighty God, He somehow chose certain men & women to respond to the Gospel at some point in their lives and become saved and a part of the "remnant of God" to represent Him to the all the lost men and women of the world. Because He knew us before we were born, like Jeremiah, He had us birthed into the family that is our family and birthed on the day, month, and year of our birth to reach a certain people for the Gospel that no one else could, with the "Gifts" to reach the lost. OK, that's the "pre-destined".

Now for the "post-determined" Since God is not willing that any man or woman perish, He is "determined" that they should be saved. Thus the Post-determined.

The "post-determined" men & women come to Jesus Christ thru what I have called a "General Call of the Gospel". Billy Graham might have been a pre-determined one. He certainly has been faithful to the GCOTG General Call Of The Gospel. Many people have come into the family of God thru this man of God, whatever you think of the man.

Someone asked, "how can you tell if you are a pre-determined?" That would be hard to tell as we view another person, probably impossible. An individual might have a feeling that he/she might be one? I for on had a very unusual conversion. For at least ten years, the Holy Spirit was wooing me, or calling me or drawing me (different words to mean the same thing) It's a long story but in 1974 after challenging God to prove if He was "up there", I entered the Glenwood Square Baptist Church in Portland, Maine, and gave my life to my Master Owner, the Lord of my life. I was saved and baptized the month of November 1974. I have a sneaky suspicion that I am a pre-determined one. over the years I have been called to prophesy, heal, preach, teach, rebuke etc, etc. I have been close to death about five times at least. I'm not bragging please believe me, these are just some of the facts that I feel a pre-determined one would have.

Are you with me? Suggestions? Questions?

Hi Chopper,

Thanks, that makes it easy to understand what you believe and why. I think I differ from most on this subject as I come to it from an angel that most Christians don't. I don't find the "tulip" in Scripture but I also don't fall on the Arminian side either. I do agree with you about the "L" though, I believe the atonement was for all people. However, I differ on the Atonement too. I think most hold to Penal Atonement whereas I hold to the Ransom or Classic view. Those holding to the Penal model usually suggest that Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for all but only effectual to those who believe. I believe the Atonement was effectual for all. Many think this leads to Universal salvation but it doesn't because the Ransom was to by back mankind not to buy his salvation, that comes through forgiveness.
 
Arminian theology lacks the absolutes that Calvin has.
That's probably because most who opine against Calvinism don't label themselves as Arminian, nor do they support a man-made doctrine. I for one never really knew about Calvinism until I started online debates about 5 years ago. Up to that point I just knew what the Bible said. I first encountered it as RT and I prefer that as I never know if I'm discussing with a 1,2,3,4 or 5 point Calvinist.
I do find however having read some of Cauvin's writings, that he maintained a lot of RCC doctrine in his beliefs.
 
That's probably because most who opine against Calvinism don't label themselves as Arminian, nor do they support a man-made doctrine. I for one never really knew about Calvinism until I started online debates about 5 years ago. Up to that point I just knew what the Bible said. I first encountered it as RT and I prefer that as I never know if I'm discussing with a 1,2,3,4 or 5 point Calvinist.
I do find however having read some of Cauvin's writings, that he maintained a lot of RCC doctrine in his beliefs.

That's true my friend, he was very vocal about his opposition to the RCC system of theology and practices.
 
Kathi, here is a chart that might help.http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/r...sm/calvinism-vs-arminianism-comparison-chart/.
Hope this answers your question. I'm very busy, so this is the best I can do right now.
Wow a lot of problems with the information provided in this link, I believe the writer presents a straw man argument.

Free Will or Human Ability
Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man’s freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man’s freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God’s Spirit and be regenerated or resist God’s grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit’s assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man’s act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner’s gift to God; it is man’s contribution to salvation.
Man's will toward the true good is completely destroyed as a result of the fall, this is Arminius' own words. So that isn't true.

Also, faith is something that God gives to us, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. He does not therefore believe for us, but as the Jews did, we can resist the Holy Spirit to our own destruction. Faith is not the sinner's gift to God, or his contribution to salvation. It is the realization that there is nothing that we can do to save ourselves, so that we then trust in Jesus and what he did for our salvation. This is a terrible misrepresentation of what we believe.

Conditional Election
God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man’s will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner’s choice of Christ, not God’s choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
Of course they only mention election on the basis of foreknowledge, which is clearly the weaker argument.

Universal Redemption or General Atonement
Christ’s redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone’s sins. Christ’s redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.
Scripture clearly teaches that the salvation of men is secured when they believe by grace. To say it didn't secure the salvation of anyone is incorrect, it secured the salvation of all those who would believe, as it was intended. Whoever believes has eternal life.

The Holy Spirit Can Be Effectually Resisted
The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit’s call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man’s contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man’s free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ’s saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God’s grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.
This is another misrepresentation, and perhaps my biggest problem with Calvinistic teachers is that they seem incapable of presenting our position accurately and fairly.

We don't believe that God does "all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation," God could overcome their ability to ultimately decide life or death (we must remember that this ability is only possible with God's grace), but he chooses not to. Arminians believe that God has a permissive will, where he permits at times, beings to act freely of their own volition and thus are responsible for their own actions. This is the kind of representation that makes my blood boil, presenting my beliefs as if I believe that God's grace can be "thwarted by man." I believe Scripture, which teaches that the Holy Spirit can be resisted (Acts 7:51), and that God graciously reveals and convicts us of our sin and draws us to Christ. I do not believe that Scripture teaches some kind of regeneration precedes faith, but rather is on account of our faith. So the only other option would be for God to force certain people, which would make him a respecter of persons.

Falling From Grace
Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith. etc. All Arminian, have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ — that once a sinner is regenerated. he can never be lost.
Very little information is given on this point, but they're at least right about the disagreement. Their understanding of the doctrine though makes it seem like the believer is all on their own to keep up their faith, which is definitely not true.

According to Arminianism:Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts ofGod (who takes the initiative) and man(who must respond)—man’s response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, “choose” to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man’s will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.REJECTED by the Synod of DortThis was the system of thought contained in the “Remonstrance” (though the “five points” were not originally arranged in this order). It was submitted by the Arminians to the Church of Holland in 1610 for adoption but was rejected by the Synod of Dort in 1619 on the ground that it was unscriptural.
Salvation is accomplished on the Cross of Calvary, and it is those who trust in that who are saved. They accomplish nothing for themselves, but embrace that which has been accomplished for them. Man's wickedness is the definitive factor for why men reject God, not God's refusal to elect them for some arbitrary reason. God has given Christ to be a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also the whole world, such that whoever trust themselves in what Christ accomplished is saved. Indeed Scripture teaches that salvation accords with grace because it is on the basis of faith in Christ.

I do not see a position of boasting for the tax collector who beat his chest and said, "God have mercy on me a sinner." It is this man who goes home justified, and this man has no room to boast. Everyone who humbles himself will be exalted, and those who exalt themselves will be humbled. This is the teaching of Scripture.

If Arminianism is what they presented then I wouldn't believe in it either, and this is one of the reasons so many remain Calvinists as they never see a proper presentation of the other side.
 
Wow a lot of problems with the information provided in this link, I believe the writer presents a straw man argument.


Man's will toward the true good is completely destroyed as a result of the fall, this is Arminius' own words. So that isn't true.

Also, faith is something that God gives to us, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. He does not therefore believe for us, but as the Jews did, we can resist the Holy Spirit to our own destruction. Faith is not the sinner's gift to God, or his contribution to salvation. It is the realization that there is nothing that we can do to save ourselves, so that we then trust in Jesus and what he did for our salvation. This is a terrible misrepresentation of what we believe.


Of course they only mention election on the basis of foreknowledge, which is clearly the weaker argument.


Scripture clearly teaches that the salvation of men is secured when they believe by grace. To say it didn't secure the salvation of anyone is incorrect, it secured the salvation of all those who would believe, as it was intended. Whoever believes has eternal life.


This is another misrepresentation, and perhaps my biggest problem with Calvinistic teachers is that they seem incapable of presenting our position accurately and fairly.

We don't believe that God does "all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation," God could overcome their ability to ultimately decide life or death (we must remember that this ability is only possible with God's grace), but he chooses not to. Arminians believe that God has a permissive will, where he permits at times, beings to act freely of their own volition and thus are responsible for their own actions. This is the kind of representation that makes my blood boil, presenting my beliefs as if I believe that God's grace can be "thwarted by man." I believe Scripture, which teaches that the Holy Spirit can be resisted (Acts 7:51), and that God graciously reveals and convicts us of our sin and draws us to Christ. I do not believe that Scripture teaches some kind of regeneration precedes faith, but rather is on account of our faith. So the only other option would be for God to force certain people, which would make him a respecter of persons.


Very little information is given on this point, but they're at least right about the disagreement. Their understanding of the doctrine though makes it seem like the believer is all on their own to keep up their faith, which is definitely not true.


Salvation is accomplished on the Cross of Calvary, and it is those who trust in that who are saved. They accomplish nothing for themselves, but embrace that which has been accomplished for them. Man's wickedness is the definitive factor for why men reject God, not God's refusal to elect them for some arbitrary reason. God has given Christ to be a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also the whole world, such that whoever trust themselves in what Christ accomplished is saved. Indeed Scripture teaches that salvation accords with grace because it is on the basis of faith in Christ.

I do not see a position of boasting for the tax collector who beat his chest and said, "God have mercy on me a sinner." It is this man who goes home justified, and this man has no room to boast. Everyone who humbles himself will be exalted, and those who exalt themselves will be humbled. This is the teaching of Scripture.

If Arminianism is what they presented then I wouldn't believe in it either, and this is one of the reasons so many remain Calvinists as they never see a proper presentation of the other side.

I agree. When I read this article I thought that the author either did not understand or was deliberately misrepresenting the view. I hope it was not the second.
 
I agree. When I read this article I thought that the author either did not understand or was deliberately misrepresenting the view. I hope it was not the second.
When I was a Calvinist, this was the typical representation of Arminianism. I don't know if deliberate ignorance or being deliberately misleading is worse, but it is an epidemic among their teachers.

When I sought to understand it more, and got my resources from someone who wasn't a Calvinist, I ended up finding out I was wrong. lol
 
Wow a lot of problems with the information provided in this link, I believe the writer presents a straw man argument.


Man's will toward the true good is completely destroyed as a result of the fall, this is Arminius' own words. So that isn't true.

Also, faith is something that God gives to us, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. He does not therefore believe for us, but as the Jews did, we can resist the Holy Spirit to our own destruction. Faith is not the sinner's gift to God, or his contribution to salvation. It is the realization that there is nothing that we can do to save ourselves, so that we then trust in Jesus and what he did for our salvation. This is a terrible misrepresentation of what we believe.


Of course they only mention election on the basis of foreknowledge, which is clearly the weaker argument.


Scripture clearly teaches that the salvation of men is secured when they believe by grace. To say it didn't secure the salvation of anyone is incorrect, it secured the salvation of all those who would believe, as it was intended. Whoever believes has eternal life.


This is another misrepresentation, and perhaps my biggest problem with Calvinistic teachers is that they seem incapable of presenting our position accurately and fairly.

We don't believe that God does "all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation," God could overcome their ability to ultimately decide life or death (we must remember that this ability is only possible with God's grace), but he chooses not to. Arminians believe that God has a permissive will, where he permits at times, beings to act freely of their own volition and thus are responsible for their own actions. This is the kind of representation that makes my blood boil, presenting my beliefs as if I believe that God's grace can be "thwarted by man." I believe Scripture, which teaches that the Holy Spirit can be resisted (Acts 7:51), and that God graciously reveals and convicts us of our sin and draws us to Christ. I do not believe that Scripture teaches some kind of regeneration precedes faith, but rather is on account of our faith. So the only other option would be for God to force certain people, which would make him a respecter of persons.


Very little information is given on this point, but they're at least right about the disagreement. Their understanding of the doctrine though makes it seem like the believer is all on their own to keep up their faith, which is definitely not true.


Salvation is accomplished on the Cross of Calvary, and it is those who trust in that who are saved. They accomplish nothing for themselves, but embrace that which has been accomplished for them. Man's wickedness is the definitive factor for why men reject God, not God's refusal to elect them for some arbitrary reason. God has given Christ to be a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also the whole world, such that whoever trust themselves in what Christ accomplished is saved. Indeed Scripture teaches that salvation accords with grace because it is on the basis of faith in Christ.

I do not see a position of boasting for the tax collector who beat his chest and said, "God have mercy on me a sinner." It is this man who goes home justified, and this man has no room to boast. Everyone who humbles himself will be exalted, and those who exalt themselves will be humbled. This is the teaching of Scripture.

If Arminianism is what they presented then I wouldn't believe in it either, and this is one of the reasons so many remain Calvinists as they never see a proper presentation of the other side.

Wow! OK! The only comment that I'll make to your opinion is that God gives the sinner the gift of faith to believe the Gospel. Faith is prior to Salvation, not a gift after. Says, Galatians 3:24; Ephesians 2;8; Romans 9:30; Romans 5:1; Acts 15:4.
 
Wow! OK! The only comment that I'll make to your opinion is that God gives the sinner the gift of faith to believe the Gospel. Faith is prior to Salvation, not a gift after. Says, Galatians 3:24; Ephesians 2;8; Romans 9:30; Romans 5:1; Acts 15:4.
Did I say it was a gift that comes after?
 
Did I say it was a gift that comes after?

Also, faith is something that God gives to us, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. He does not therefore believe for us, but as the Jews did, we can resist the Holy Spirit to our own destruction. Faith is not the sinner's gift to God, or his contribution to salvation. It is the realization that there is nothing that we can do to save ourselves, so that we then trust in Jesus and what he did for our salvation. This is a terrible misrepresentation of what we believe.

Is this not what you meant?
 
Also, faith is something that God gives to us, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. He does not therefore believe for us, but as the Jews did, we can resist the Holy Spirit to our own destruction. Faith is not the sinner's gift to God, or his contribution to salvation. It is the realization that there is nothing that we can do to save ourselves, so that we then trust in Jesus and what he did for our salvation. This is a terrible misrepresentation of what we believe.

Is this not what you meant?
I said faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God, wherein I quoted Paul. If faith comes by hearing the gospel, then it means that God works through the gospel to bring about faith in those who hear. I simply disagree that this work of the Holy Spirit is irresistible.

Salvation in it's totality is a gift that is received, and the capacity to receive it is only possible through the grace of God, by the Holy Spirit enabling us to have faith. If man does not respond it is because of their wickedness, not God's unwillingness to elect and save that individual. God desires that all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.
 
I said faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God, wherein I quoted Paul. If faith comes by hearing the gospel, then it means that God works through the gospel to bring about faith in those who hear. I simply disagree that this work of the Holy Spirit is irresistible.

Salvation in it's totality is a gift that is received, and the capacity to receive it is only possible through the grace of God, by the Holy Spirit enabling us to have faith. If man does not respond it is because of their wickedness, not God's unwillingness to elect and save that individual. God desires that all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

:amen
 
I said faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God, wherein I quoted Paul. If faith comes by hearing the gospel, then it means that God works through the gospel to bring about faith in those who hear. I simply disagree that this work of the Holy Spirit is irresistible.

Salvation in it's totality is a gift that is received, and the capacity to receive it is only possible through the grace of God, by the Holy Spirit enabling us to have faith. If man does not respond it is because of their wickedness, not God's unwillingness to elect and save that individual. God desires that all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

I agree with most of your post except where you said "I simply disagree that this work of the Holy Spirit is irresistible." This is what separates the "elect" from those who come from the "General Call." For the elect, the call of the Holy Spirit is irresistible. For the non-elect, or those from the General Call, it is not irresistible, it can be refused.
 
I can find scripture where the whole believing Body of Christ are called the elect.

Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Who are the elect in this scripture, all true believers or just some of the true believers. Is the Lord only going to gather some of those who are believers in Him. No, He will gather all who are "in Him".

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Did Paul endure all things so that some who would believe should receive salvation or that all who would believe should receive salvation.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

All true believers must be sanctified by the Holy Spirit and receive the blood of Christ for justification. There is no other way to be saved.
All true believers are therefore, the elect. But we are only the elect because Christ Himself is the "Chosen" or "Elect One". We are in Him, the elect.
Anyone who is "in Christ" are the elect.
 
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I agree with most of your post except where you said "I simply disagree that this work of the Holy Spirit is irresistible." This is what separates the "elect" from those who come from the "General Call." For the elect, the call of the Holy Spirit is irresistible. For the non-elect, or those from the General Call, it is not irresistible, it can be refused.
This in my opinion is kind of a "double talk," where the message of salvation is only genuinely applicable for some who hear it, and to others it is irrelevant as the message isn't even meant for them.

This teaching contradicts the following Scriptures.

who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:4 (ESV)

and

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 (ESV)

If God wishes and desires that all people to be saved and all to come to repentance, then it does not fit that God would not seek the salvation of all people, but rather an elect few.

No where is it depicted that the gospel call is irresistible to certain people.

No where is it depicted that there are certain individuals who are regarded as being "elect" prior to coming to faith in Christ.

No where is it depicted that God has chosen to not provide a way of salvation for billions of people through reprobation.

Calvinists confuse the passages about the rejection of the Jews on account of their unbelief and the inclusion of the Gentiles, and that God has from the foundation of the world planned that he would have a chosen people of God in the Messiah, that would be of every tribe, nation and tongue. He promised to bless all the world through Abraham's descendant, who is the Messiah Jesus, and whoever believes in Jesus is a part of that chosen community of God and partakes in the blessing.

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2 (ESV)

Christ's sacrifice was not just for us, for the sins of the whole world. This verse disproves Calvinism outright.
 
I can find scripture where the whole believing Body of Christ are called the elect.

Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Who are the elect in this scripture, all true believers or just some of the true believers. Is the Lord only going to gather some of those who are believers in Him. No, He will gather all who are "in Him".

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Did Paul endure all things so that some who would believe should receive salvation or that all who would believe should receive salvation.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

All true believers must be sanctified by the Holy Spirit and receive the blood of Christ for justification. There is no other way to be saved.
All true believers are therefore, the elect. But we are only the elect because Christ Himself is the "Chosen" or "Elect One". We are in Him, the elect.
Anyone who is "in Christ" is the elect.
Amen!
 
I can find scripture where the whole believing Body of Christ are called the elect.

Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Who are the elect in this scripture, all true believers or just some of the true believers. Is the Lord only going to gather some of those who are believers in Him. No, He will gather all who are "in Him".

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Did Paul endure all things so that some who would believe should receive salvation or that all who would believe should receive salvation.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

All true believers must be sanctified by the Holy Spirit and receive the blood of Christ for justification. There is no other way to be saved.
All true believers are therefore, the elect. But we are only the elect because Christ Himself is the "Chosen" or "Elect One". We are in Him, the elect.
Anyone who is "in Christ" are the elect.

Yes Deb, you are right. The term "elect" represents all believers. It starts with those of whom God chooses before the foundation of the world. Actually, Jesus Christ is the first "Elect One" then, those chosen by God, then those who come to Christ thru the "General Call". All are considered "Elect."
 
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