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The "Elect"

Chopper said:
Yes Deb, you are right. The term "elect" represents all believers. It starts with those of whom God chooses before the foundation of the world. Actually, Jesus Christ is the first "Elect One" then, those chosen by God, then those who come to Christ thru the "General Call". All are considered "Elect."
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:goodpost
 
Chopper said:
Yes Deb, you are right. The term "elect" represents all believers. It starts with those of whom God chooses before the foundation of the world. Actually, Jesus Christ is the first "Elect One" then, those chosen by God, then those who come to Christ thru the "General Call". All are considered "Elect."
Click to expand...
Curious what you do with these texts, which seem to indicate conditional election in the OT.

“For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the LORD set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples,but it is because the LORD loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers, that the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Deuteronomy 7:6-8 (ESV)

Notice, that they were chosen as a people (not individuals), because he was keeping an oath he swore to their fathers. This wasn't some hidden will regarding the election of Israel, but was on the basis of a Covenant made to Abraham who he chose as the Covenant Representative Head.

“And because you listen to these rules and keep and do them, the LORD your God will keep with you the covenant and the steadfast love that he swore to your fathers. Deuteronomy 7:12 (ESV)

God then gives the reason for his continued keeping of the Covenant and Love for them, which is "because you listen to these rules and keep and do them." Nothing could be further from unconditional election, and if this was something that God did "before the foundation of the world," then wouldn't these people be elect before the foundation of the world too? Yet, God said that he would keep his Covenant faithfulness towards these individuals, conditional on their obedience.

How do you view these verses?
 
OK guys, I have posted my theology as plain and simple as I know how. I'm simply not going to go any further. It is obvious that you are against what I believe, and that's your right to believe anything you want. If we continue to "debate", these threads that reach this stage usually end up with insults somewhere down the line. So, thank you for your input, I appreciate all of your thoughts.

This will be my last post on this subject. If you don't accept my explanation now, you never will no matter how much we debate.
 
Chopper said:
Yes Deb, you are right. The term "elect" represents all believers. It starts with those of whom God chooses before the foundation of the world. Actually, Jesus Christ is the first "Elect One" then, those chosen by God, then those who come to Christ thru the "General Call". All are considered "Elect."
Click to expand...

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

These are the very same people aren't they?

The elect in 1 Peter 1:2 are all believers, that is the only way to be saved and they are "according to the foreknowledge of God".
Therefore they are the same people being spoken of in Romans 8:29, "For whom He did foreknow".

There are not any believers described anywhere in the scriptures, that I can find who are not described as Not being
"according to the foreknowledge of God".
 
Doulos Iesou said:
Are you a Calvinist agua?
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As you know, Calvin never said there were two groups of believers.
He did say there were two calls, one effectual to salvation and one the was not effectual to salvation.
That the Holy Spirit only drew some with the effectual call and the others that heard the message it was not effectual because the Holy Spirit did not draw them and in most cases never would.
 
Chopper said:
OK guys, I have posted my theology as plain and simple as I know how. I'm simply not going to go any further. It is obvious that you are against what I believe, and that's your right to believe anything you want. If we continue to "debate", these threads that reach this stage usually end up with insults somewhere down the line. So, thank you for your input, I appreciate all of your thoughts.

This will be my last post on this subject. If you don't accept my explanation now, you never will no matter how much we debate.
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I have no intentions to turn to insults, and I respect you deeply as an individual. I personally was very much so hurt by the teachings of Calvinism, so I try to show others the error of such when I can.

If you do not wish to continue that is fine.

Blessings,
DI
 
Chopper said:
OK guys, I have posted my theology as plain and simple as I know how. I'm simply not going to go any further. It is obvious that you are against what I believe, and that's your right to believe anything you want. If we continue to "debate", these threads that reach this stage usually end up with insults somewhere down the line. So, thank you for your input, I appreciate all of your thoughts.

This will be my last post on this subject. If you don't accept my explanation now, you never will no matter how much we debate.
Click to expand...

I would never insult you personally, I respect you very much and believe you love God with all your heart.
Blessing to you and yours.
 
Look guys, I know what your feelings are and I appreciate that. I must admit that I'm getting frustrated at something that I can see so plainly and some others can't see it. Since I have been teaching this theology, it has been accepted by others. I really don't think you would insult me, but I might say something out of my frustration that might offend. That's the reason I should drop out of this thread.
 
Chopper said:
Look guys, I know what your feelings are and I appreciate that. I must admit that I'm getting frustrated at something that I can see so plainly and some others can't see it. Since I have been teaching this theology, it has been accepted by others. I really don't think you would insult me, but I might say something out of my frustration that might offend. That's the reason I should drop out of this thread.
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A wise man sees trouble ahead and makes a detour. Well done !
 
Chopper said:
Look guys, I know what your feelings are and I appreciate that. I must admit that I'm getting frustrated at something that I can see so plainly and some others can't see it. Since I have been teaching this theology, it has been accepted by others. I really don't think you would insult me, but I might say something out of my frustration that might offend. That's the reason I should drop out of this thread.
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You are good and wise man. Thank you for being you.
 
Doulos Iesou said:
Man's will toward the true good is completely destroyed as a result of the fall, this is Arminius' own words. So that isn't true.
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As most of your post was simple denial, I won't bother addressing it, but if the above is fact then why did Jesus say what he did in Matthew 7:11 NIV and Luke 11:13 NIV? If Jesus saw evil men could do good, that should be a big clue.
Being prone to sin and having a carnal nature does not make one totally depraved, to the point of not recognizing or being able to do any good, as some would assert.
Remember Jesus was addressing fathers in the above scripture, and fathers, for the most part, love their children and do as much good for them as possible. God is good, as Paul teaches in Phil 4:8 NIV
 
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Deborah13 said:
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Did Paul endure all things so that some who would believe should receive salvation or that all who would believe should receive salvation.
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I just wonder what Paul means in 2 Tim 2:10, if the elect are in Christ, then why is he praying that THEY should obtain salvation? Sounds to me like he is praying about Israel.
In any event, yes those that are saved are called the elect, but IMO that does NOT mean especially chosen.
 
Stan1953 said:
As most of your post was simple denial, I won't bother addressing it, but if the above is fact then why did Jesus say what he did in Matthew 7:11 NIV and Luke 11:13 NIV? If Jesus saw evil men could do good, that should be a big clue.
Being prone to sin and having a carnal nature does not make one totally depraved, to the point of not recognizing or being able to do any good, as some would assert.
Remember Jesus was addressing fathers in the above scripture, and fathers, for the most part, love their children and do as much good for them as possible. God is good, as Paul teaches in Phil 4:8 NIV
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I think you misunderstand his statement, he is addressing the ability of man to come to God on his own. Not, the ability of man to do anything good whatsoever.

Do you believe we can come to faith in Christ apart from grace?
 
I'm thinking that the term 'elect' generally refers to the apostolic church in contrast to Judaism in the NT, and Judaism in contrast to the gentile world in the OT. We Christians today are not the 'elect', rather we are a new creation.:twocents
 
Doulos Iesou said:
I think you misunderstand his statement, he is addressing the ability of man to come to God on his own. Not, the ability of man to do anything good whatsoever.
Do you believe we can come to faith in Christ apart from grace?
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Sorry but I addressed what I saw.
No the Bible teaches us we are saved because of grace and faith.
 
Sinthesis said:
I'm thinking that the term 'elect' generally refers to the apostolic church in contrast to Judaism in the NT, and Judaism in contrast to the gentile world in the OT. We Christians today are not the 'elect', rather we are a new creation.:twocents
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:biggrin2 That would be the topic for ANOTHER thread.
 
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