The Law and Grace

[GodsGrace]

Since I am a Christian, what Jesus said to the (unsaved) Jews and pagans doesn't apply to me. If you want to strive under the law ad infinitum be my guest. I am not under the law but under God's grace.

Good bye, my sister. I will no longer discuss the law with you. May God bless you in your vain struggle to keep the law.

I think there is some disconnect here because I know that you want to please God just as
JLB and for_his_glory do.

Maybe when someone says they are not under the law, the other thinks he is saying that he can sin.
I know this is not the case...at least with you.

I think you explained well what it means to be under grace...
The law is no longer written on stone, but written on the fleshy heart.
IOW, the way you explain it as EXTERNAL obedience and INTERNAL obedience is acceptable language, to explain in some way the difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant.

Would it have been sufficient for you to say that you no longer obey the law because you have to,
but you obey the law because you want to ?

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus came to tell the do-gooders the actual meaning of the law.
The law is all about the heart and what is taking place within the heart .
As in His example that if you look upon another human being in lust you have committed " Adultery "
And if you are angry at another person you are a " Murderer ".

Actually, as the opposite of some that believe Jesus' statement that He fulfilled the Law means that they don't really have to...I'd say that Jesus upped the demand!

Yes, obeying the Law is of the heart.
This is the only way we can actually obey it.
Not because we have to....the Mosaic Covenant -
but because we want to...the New Covenant.
(as I just posted above).

I see this to be the basic difference between the Mosaic (Old) and the New Covenant.
One could say that another difference is the invitation to all, but this has been present from the Abrahamic Covenant.

 

[jaybo]

No one is saying we are under, (under obligation to keep; obey) the law of Moses.

We are under grace and obligated to obey grace: the Spirit of Grace.


For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, Titus 2:11-12

for_his_glory has repeatedly talked about the 613 mitzvot, the Jewish law, as though it applies to Christians. I will no longer discuss the issue with her.

I'm not sure what you mean that we're obligated to obey grace: the Spirit of Grace. If you mean that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth, then we agree. John 16:13, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth."

 

[jaybo]

I think there is some disconnect here because I know that you want to please God just as
JLB and for_his_glory do.

Maybe when someone says they are not under the law, the other thinks he is saying that he can sin.
I know this is not the case...at least with you.

I think you explained well what it means to be under grace...
The law is no longer written on stone, but written on the fleshy heart.
IOW, the way you explain it as EXTERNAL obedience and INTERNAL obedience is acceptable language, to explain in some way the difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant.

Would it have been sufficient for you to say that you no longer obey the law because you have to,
but you obey the law because you want to ?

Perhaps, but there is a lot more to life than the 163 mitzvot. Judaism is dependent on this series of laws but Christianity is dependent on God's grace, which covers much more than 613 rules.

 

[jaybo]

What do the 163 mitzvot say about driving the speed limit? What is an acceptable amount of TV to watch weekly? Should I bet on the Super Bowl? I'm certain that only the Holy Spirit can guide us in every aspect of 21st Century life.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Nothing wrong with the law .
The problem is with the fatal heart trouble that we all suffer from that makes us sinners rather than law keepers .

Mat 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

 

[GodsGrace]

Perhaps, but there is a lot more to life than the 163 mitzvot. Judaism is dependent on this series of laws but Christianity is dependent on God's grace, which covers much more than 613 rules.

I'd have to agree.
Jesus said we have to obey the Law MORE than the pharisees.
Matthew 5:20
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Righteousness means to be right with God, in its simplest form, and how we understand this today.
Jesus was saying that to be right with God we don't only have to follow the Laws of God (the Moral Law)
but we have to follow it with our heart.

And, after Pentecost, we do have the Holy Spirit that dwells within us if we so wish it.
So your writing about the heart is right on....
Do you agree that Jesus' love for us and ours for Him makes us WANT to follow His law?

 

[GodsGrace]

Nothing wrong with the law .
The problem is with the fatal heart trouble that we all suffer from that makes us sinners rather than law keepers .

Mat 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

WE ALL suffer from this fatal heart failure?
Are you taking Matthew 15:19 out of context?

Jesus is saying that it's what comes out of our mouth that damns us,,,
not what goes into it.

Jesus is explaining what WILL DEFILE a person...
He was not speaking of those that followed Him as disciples.

A born again Christian, believer of God and follower of His Son and God Jesus
is not to be considered a sinner.

We are children of God and should consider ourselves as such.

1 John 3:1a
1See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are.

 

[GodsGrace]

What do the 163 mitzvot say about driving the speed limit? What is an acceptable amount of TV to watch weekly? Should I bet on the Super Bowl? I'm certain that only the Holy Spirit can guide us in every aspect of 21st Century life.

In fact, Jesus did not state a list of rules to follow.
His aim was to change us from the inside out so that we would know how to behave in every situation.
Whether or not we do is a different matter.
The Holy Spirit always tells us what to do...
we don't always listen.

 

[Consecrated Life]

WE ALL suffer from this fatal heart failure?
Are you taking Matthew 15:19 out of context?

A born again Christian, believer of God and follower of His Son and God Jesus
is not to be considered a sinner.

Yes we all suffer from this fatal heart trouble .
But as it is written all are not willing to admit it;

1Jo 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes we all suffer from this fatal heart trouble .
But as it is written all are not willing to admit it;

1Jo 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Did I say we have no sin?

You cut out from my post why I believe Jesus meant something different than what you understand.

Do you believe Matthew 19:15 states that Jesus was saying that believers are sinners?
We all sin.

Could you please explain Matthew better?
What is the difference between believers and non-believers.
Thanks

 

[Consecrated Life]

Did I say we have no sin?

You cut out from my post why I believe Jesus meant something different than what you understand.

Do you believe Matthew 19:15 states that Jesus was saying that believers are sinners?
We all sin.

Could you please explain Matthew better?
What is the difference between believers and non-believers.
Thanks

Yes Jesus says we are sinners.
Matthew 15:19 is Jesus pointing out the source of our sin, our heart .

Mat 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

The " difference "is that believers are saved sinners and no longer live in the pain, fear, and dread of the putrid infectious sorrow and ultimate death living in the dominion of sin produces .
The believers heart has been Consecrated with the healing balm, of the protection & promise of the sweet Shepherd .
The unbelievers heart has not .
They have no Shepherd.

Psa 121:8
The LORD shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore.

 

[JLB]

Yes Jesus says we are sinners.

Please share the scripture that’s says His sheep, (His people) are called sinners.



Thanks, JLB

 

[Consecrated Life]

Please share the scripture that’s says His sheep, (His people) are called sinners.



Thanks, JLB

I did just do that in fact , reviewing the posts in this thread more closely could help prevent you from asking people to repeat themselves.

1Jo 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[jaybo]

I'd have to agree.
Jesus said we have to obey the Law MORE than the pharisees.
Matthew 5:20
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Righteousness means to be right with God, in its simplest form, and how we understand this today.
Jesus was saying that to be right with God we don't only have to follow the Laws of God (the Moral Law)
but we have to follow it with our heart.

And, after Pentecost, we do have the Holy Spirit that dwells within us if we so wish it.
So your writing about the heart is right on....
Do you agree that Jesus' love for us and ours for Him makes us WANT to follow His law?

Yes, I do agree -- 100%

 

[jaybo]

In fact, Jesus did not state a list of rules to follow.
His aim was to change us from the inside out so that we would know how to behave in every situation.
Whether or not we do is a different matter.
The Holy Spirit always tells us what to do...
we don't always listen.

Great post! Very true!

 

[JLB]

I did just do that in fact , reviewing the posts in this thread more closely could help prevent you from asking people to repeat themselves.

1Jo 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Brother I asked you to provide the scripture whereby Jesus refers to His sheep, that is to say His people, saints, as sinners.


Let’s please have a good discussion.


A sinner is a person who is separated from Christ and is need of salvation by repenting, turning to God or turning back to God.


His sheep, saints, are joined to Christ and are one spirit with Him;
ie, “in Christ”.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17


For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26



Here is another passage where we see the language Jesus uses concerning His sheep, verses a sinner.


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

Key Passage:

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

JLB

 

[Consecrated Life]

Brother I asked you to provide the scripture whereby Jesus refers to His sheep, that is to say His people, saints, as sinners.


Let’s please have a good discussion.


A sinner is a person who is separated from Christ and is need of salvation by repenting, turning to God or turning back to God.


His sheep, saints, are joined to Christ and are one spirit with Him;
ie, “in Christ”.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17


For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26



Here is another passage where we see the language Jesus uses concerning His sheep, verses a sinner.


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

Key Passage:

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

JLB

You believe that you do not sin ?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes Jesus says we are sinners.
Matthew 15:19 is Jesus pointing out the source of our sin, our heart .

Mat 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

The " difference "is that believers are saved sinners and no longer live in the pain, fear, and dread of the putrid infectious sorrow and ultimate death living in the dominion of sin produces .
The believers heart has been Consecrated with the healing balm, of the protection & promise of the sweet Shepherd .
The unbelievers heart has not .
They have no Shepherd.

Psa 121:8
The LORD shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore.

You say that the believer's heart has been consecrated with the healing balm of the protection and promise of the sweet Shepherd. The unbeliever's heart has not.

So, a few questions for you because we Christians tend not to all speak the same language....
For clarification:

1. What does consecrated mean?
2. Who does the consecrating?
3. What are we protected against?
4. Do believers sin just as they did previously...but they are now "protected"?

Thanks CL...
we might be saying the same thing using different ideas or words.
(or maybe not).

 

[Consecrated Life]

You say that the believer's heart has been consecrated with the healing balm of the protection and promise of the sweet Shepherd. The unbeliever's heart has not.

So, a few questions for you because we Christians tend not to all speak the same language....
For clarification:

1. What does consecrated mean?
2. Who does the consecrating?
3. What are we protected against?
4. Do believers sin just as they did previously...but they are now "protected"?

Thanks CL...
we might be saying the same thing using different ideas or words.
(or maybe not).

1. What does consecrated mean?
-The Spirit of God Taking up residence in the heart

2. Who does the consecrating?
-God

3. What are we protected against?
-spiritual death

4. Do believers sin just as they did previously...but they are now "protected"?
-No, once a person becomes an awakened believer, any sin will significantly distress & grieve the heart of the believer.
Their heart having the Holy Spirit in residence.
Very painful and yet transformative, ie: Peter, from denying the Lord to his powerful testimony on the day of Pentecost.
The result being the believer turning more and more away from sin and it's attached sorrow with each new day.
In addition God will exact Divine corrective punishment on the believer for their sin, and take them to the woodshed.
God does not whip the devil's children.