The Law, works and keeping his comandments

[JLB]

I already answered this question that has nothing to do with our discussion. Yes, a gentile who wanted to join himself to the people of God had to conform to the same law as the native Israelite.

Now, answer my question.

Name the command in the law of Moses that does NOT get upheld by the gentile who believes in Christ and, as a result, walks by the Spirit.

(Galatians 5:6,14 NIV)

Brother, this is the only point of our discussion. It has everything to do with our discussion.

You know this, and you have continually and deliberately avoided the only True answer, because you know how foolish it is to try and apply the law of Moses to Gentiles that had nothing to do with the children of Israel, the natural offspring of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

I have tried my best to get you to se the one single infallible Truth for months and months, with scripture after scripture.

Yet, in your stubbornness you simply keep sidestepping the answer, which is an admission in and of itself.

You keep trying to change to question by adding your own twist to it.

Answer this question with a Yes or No.

Don't change the question. Don't add to the question.

At the time of Moses Law, Gentiles who were living outside the Land of Israel, and were considered the children of God the way Abraham was, were they under the law of Moses and required to keep it?

Yes you agree or No you don't agree.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I already answered this question that has nothing to do with our discussion. Yes, a gentile who wanted to join himself to the people of God had to conform to the same law as the native Israelite.

Now, answer my question.

Name the command in the law of Moses that does NOT get upheld by the gentile who believes in Christ and, as a result, walks by the Spirit.

(Galatians 5:6,14 NIV)

33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." Numbers 15:33-35


Faith in Christ does not uphold the requirement to stone a person to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.

 

[JLB]

I already answered this question that has nothing to do with our discussion. Yes, a gentile who wanted to join himself to the people of God had to conform to the same law as the native Israelite.

Now, answer my question.

Name the command in the law of Moses that does NOT get upheld by the gentile who believes in Christ and, as a result, walks by the Spirit.

(Galatians 5:6,14 NIV)

18 "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear. Deuteronomy 21:18-21


Faith in Christ does not establish the law of Moses that says to stone your child to death if he is rebellious.

Were the children of God in other nations required to stone their children if they are stubborn and rebellious?


By the way this is a good law.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

I already answered this question that has nothing to do with our discussion. Yes, a gentile who wanted to join himself to the people of God had to conform to the same law as the native Israelite.

Now, answer my question.

Name the command in the law of Moses that does NOT get upheld by the gentile who believes in Christ and, as a result, walks by the Spirit.

(Galatians 5:6,14 NIV)

So Jethro, are you saying that you upheld agricultural laws by having faith in Jesus?
If so how?
Does a young woman believer upheld the laws given by Moses to her for her time once a month by having faith in Jesus?

You do we ever hear the Law of Abraham? or Isaac, or Jacob? They followed all that God told them to do and lived by faith.

But then came along the Law of MOSES. Why was it called the Law of Moses?
Moses was God's mediator of that package of laws.

All people have a new mediator of a new covenant, and with the change of the new priest, there is new laws. The Old are obsolete. Because SOME of them are the same many of them are Not.

 

[Deborah13]

18 "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear. Deuteronomy 21:18-21


Faith in Christ does not establish the law of Moses that says to stone your child to death if he is rebellious.

Were the children of God in other nations required to stone their children if they are stubborn and rebellious?


By the way this is a good law.


JLB

JBL ! Really now....:

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Brother, this is the only point of our discussion. It has everything to do with our discussion.

You know this, and you have continually and deliberately avoided the only True answer, because you know how foolish it is to try and apply the law of Moses to Gentiles that had nothing to do with the children of Israel, the natural offspring of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

This is why you're not getting it. I'm NOT applying the law of Moses to gentiles. I'm showing you how faith in Christ doesn't violate the law of Moses. This is why you're not getting it. You're still stuck in the rut of thinking the church is in about the law.

Answer this question with a Yes or No.

Don't change the question. Don't add to the question.

At the time of Moses Law, Gentiles who were living outside the Land of Israel, and were considered the children of God the way Abraham was, were they under the law of Moses and required to keep it?

Yes you agree or No you don't agree.

JLB

Yes.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." Numbers 15:33-35


Faith in Christ does not uphold the requirement to stone a person to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.

The requirement of the law is that a person obey God's appointed Sabbath. If anybody does not enter into God's appointed Sabbath they will die.

The first covenant way of keeping God's appointed Sabbath was but an illustration of the real Sabbath observance-Jesus Christ and entering into that Rest by faith in his blood. Now that we know this, we enter into that Rest and live, and the first covenant way of keeping Sabbath is laid aside in favor of the true Sabbath observance, but the requirement for Sabbath Rest remains. And it still requires the death penalty for not upholding that requirement. People are still required to die for not observing God's appointed Sabbath Rest for mankind, Jesus Christ. But Christ is the fulfillment of that requirement for death, just as faith in Jesus and the resulting rest from the sin nature is the fulfillment of the Sabbath requirement, too. The Sabbath rest didn't go away. The way it used to get fulfilled did.

I'm guessing you and Deborah will still want to argue the point, so read this:

"9 But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!

1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm,then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.5 ...The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh (but this is what the church thinks freedom from the law means); rather, serve one another humbly in love.14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

" (Galatians 4:9-10 / 5:1,4-5,13-14 NIV)

Paul said this to the Galatian church who had turned back to dependence on the keeping of the literal Sabbaths and Festival Days of the first covenant--the old way of serving God (for the purpose of being justified). He tells them the ENTIRE law (the law they are seeking to keep) is fulfilled, not broken, by faith in Christ and walking in the fruit of the Spirit.

Faith and love fulfill the requirements of the law for Sabbaths and Festival Days, and everything else the law requires. Faith and love do not nullify them, or release us from the requirements of the law, as many in the church insist. What gets 'laid aside' is the old WAY of fulfilling those requirements. When we have faith in Christ and walk in the fruit of the Spirit we uphold and satisfy the lawful requirement for Sabbath Rest and Festival gathering and celebration, and everything else the law requires.

Maybe this is going over your head. I don't know. But all you have to see is that Paul says that having faith in Christ and loving others (aka, walking in the Spirit) fulfills the ENTIRE law. He said the same thing in Romans 13:8-10. And he said faith upholds the law in the passage we've been discussing, Romans 3:31. And he says it again in Galatians 5:22-23 when he says there is no law violated when we walk in the fruit of the Spirit. So what you have to do is prove Paul wrong that faith and walking in the fruit of the Spirit really doesn't uphold and satisfy and fulfill ALL the requirements of the law.

Don't argue that faith and love don't uphold the WAY the requirements of the law get upheld. We know they don't do that from Hebrews in the example of the Day of Atonement and it's requirements being fulfilled, not nullified, by Christ on the cross and our faith in him--the old WAY of temple, priesthood, and sacrifice being set aside in favor of a new WAY of Temple, Priesthood, and Sacrifice to fulfill the enduring and never ending requirements for a Day of Atonement.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

18 "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear. Deuteronomy 21:18-21


Faith in Christ does not establish the law of Moses that says to stone your child to death if he is rebellious.

Were the children of God in other nations required to stone their children if they are stubborn and rebellious?


By the way this is a good law.


JLB

It is a good law. What's not so good about this requirement of law (death to the rebellious) is that we who are 'under' the law (all who live in rebellion) have to pay the just penalty for rebellion.

Faith in Christ does not remove this lawful requirement for death for rebellion, it fulfills and upholds it. Christ is the death required by law for rebellion. The requirement for death did not go away. The old way of carrying it out did.

Because Christ paid the death penalty for rebellion required by the law, the way of the first covenant for paying that penalty can be laid aside. Or to use the word you are familiar with, that old way can vanish. Christ made that old way obsolete--no longer needed. Who needs to die for their rebellion who has already been put to death in Christ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Were the children of God in other nations required to stone their children if they are stubborn and rebellious?

Are the children of God in other nations somehow not guilty of rebellion that they should not have to be put to death for that rebellion?

Does God show favoritism in his righteous judgments of sin?

 

[JLB]

This is why you're not getting it. I'm NOT applying the law of Moses to gentiles. I'm showing you how faith in Christ doesn't violate the law of Moses. This is why you're not getting it. You're still stuck in the rut of thinking the church is in about the law.



Yes.

My questions has nothing to do with the time period of Jesus Christ.

The time period is when Moses was alive with the children of Israel and gave them the law of Moses, with all the food laws, sacrifices, requirements to put to death those that don't keep the Sabbath, ceremonial washings, the observance of days, weeks and years...

How do you suppose the children of God living in Persia were to keep this law of Moses which required obedience to do all that was written in the law.

Why would you think such a thing.

Why would you think the people of other nations were doing these things, when they do not have a Levitical priesthood, or a tabernacle...

How is it that God desired the children of Israel to show the other nations that they were in fact different.

The law of Moses was never intended for anyone except the children of Israel.

Even the foreigner that was with them wasn't allowed to partake of the things the children of Israel were.

Nor from a foreigner's hand shall you offer any of these as the bread of your God, because their corruption is in them, and defects are in them. They shall not be accepted on your behalf.' Leviticus 22:25

And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "This is the ordinance of the Passover: No foreigner shall eat it. Exodus 12:43

21 "You shall not eat anything that dies of itself; you may give it to the alien who is within your gates, that he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner; for you are a holy people to the Lord your God. You shall not boil a young goat in its mother's milk. Deuteronomy 14:21

you shall surely set a king over you whom the Lord your God chooses; one from among your brethren you shall set as king over you; you may not set a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. Deuteronomy 17:15

How much more the those who were not with the children of Israel, but were living in their own country.


How could you possibly think that gentiles, those that were the children of God, who were in other nations were required to keep Moses law, which is a complete law with ALL the ordinances intact.

If you really believe that, then it is clear why your New Testament doctrine is so distorted and why so few will receive your message.


JLB

 

[JLB]

It is a good law. What's not so good about this requirement of law (death to the rebellious) is that we who are 'under' the law (all who live in rebellion) have to pay the just penalty for rebellion.

Faith in Christ does not remove this lawful requirement for death for rebellion, it fulfills and upholds it. Christ is the death required by law for rebellion. The requirement for death did not go away. The old way of carrying it out did.

Because Christ paid the death penalty for rebellion required by the law, the way of the first covenant for paying that penalty can be laid aside. Or to use the word you are familiar with, that old way can vanish. Christ made that old way obsolete--no longer needed. Who needs to die for their rebellion who has already been put to death in Christ?

Have you ever heard of a Christian who stoned his children to death?

Physical death was required by the Law of Moses.

Physical sacrifices was required by the law of Moses.

You don't get to explain away the physical fleshly requirement of that Day, otherwise Jesus doesn't get crucified.

All the physical fleshly requirements were to be kept for those under the law of Moses.

Gentiles were not under the law of Moses, they were under God's law like Abraham was before he was circumcised.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So Jethro, are you saying that you upheld agricultural laws by having faith in Jesus?
If so how?
Does a young woman believer upheld the laws given by Moses to her for her time once a month by having faith in Jesus?

You're asking the wrong question (which is why you're not getting this). The question is, "does she violate them by her faith and obedience in Jesus Christ?"

The answer is 'no'.

How can you violate a law of cleanliness and isolation when you are not unclean and isolated to begin with because of your faith in Christ? Faith in Christ makes you clean and draws you near to God. The old way of dealing with uncleanliness applies to unclean people, not people brought near to God through faith in Christ.

But don't think the requirements for isolation were not paid. Christ paid the required penalties for uncleanness. He is the one who satisfied those lawful requirements, not removed them, by being cutoff and isolated, as the law requires, on a cross. Christ upheld those requirements of law, not broke them, or disregarded them.

You do we ever hear the Law of Abraham? or Isaac, or Jacob? They followed all that God told them to do and lived by faith.

But then came along the Law of MOSES. Why was it called the Law of Moses?
Moses was God's mediator of that package of laws.

All people have a new mediator of a new covenant, and with the change of the new priest, there is new laws. The Old are obsolete. Because SOME of them are the same many of them are Not.

Yes, this is right out of Hebrews. But if you read it again you'll see that what you are describing here is a change of covenant--a change in the way the requirements of God are administered, not a change in the requirements of law that first covenant sought to uphold (requirements for justice, mercy, blood, Festival gathering, Sabbaths, cleansings, etc...).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How do you suppose the children of God living in Persia were to keep this law of Moses which required obedience to do all that was written in the law.

Remember you required me to not add anything to your question--no qualifiers, no explanation. And now, just as expected, you're using that against me.

The followers of God could only keep the first covenant to the extent the covenant itself allowed. Death penalties could not be carried out willy-nilly.

Don't make the mistake of thinking I'm saying they DID keep the letter of the law. I'm saying they were REQUIRED to (whatever they knew about it). But living outside of the Land made it impossible to keep ALL of those first covenant ways of administering the laws God.

I can tell you're still stuck in your rut. What you should be realizing is the death penalty is required for rebellion no matter who you are in this world, and no matter when you lived. The law simply codified that requirement for death to silence every mouth and end the debate about it (and as a result, actually increase the trespass). Faith in Christ upholds that requirement for death, because Christ is the just and legal payment of death for rebellion, not the doing away of that requirement. What Christ did do away with was the first covenant administration of that justice. See the difference?

 

[JLB]

Remember you required me to not add anything to your question--no qualifiers, no explanation. And now, just as expected, you're using that against me.

The followers of God could only keep the first covenant to the extent the covenant itself allowed. Death penalties could not be carried out willy-nilly.

Don't make the mistake of thinking I'm saying they DID keep the letter of the law. I'm saying they were REQUIRED to (whatever they knew about it). But living outside of the Land made it impossible to keep ALL of those first covenant ways of administering the laws God.

I can tell you're still stuck in your rut. What you should be realizing is the death penalty is required for rebellion no matter who you are in this world, and no matter when you lived. The law simply codified that requirement for death to silence every mouth and end the debate about it (and as a result, actually increase the trespass). Faith in Christ upholds that requirement for death, because Christ is the just and legal payment of death for rebellion, not the doing away of that requirement. What Christ did do away with was the first covenant administration of that justice. See the difference?

Brother all your doing, and all you have done is talk around the truth.

You have not answered the question.

How do you suppose the children of God living in Persia were to keep this law of Moses which required obedience to do all that was written in the law.

Not some "spiritualized" version of the law of Moses but all the law of Moses.

The truth is, Gentiles who were God's children, living in Persia, were NOT under the law of Moses, to perform sacrifices, or keep feast days, or food laws...

Gentiles were never under Moses law.


JLB

 

[reba]

Gentiles were never under Moses law.

Lev 17:10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.

Lev 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Lev 22:18 Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering;

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Lev 17:10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.

Lev 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Lev 22:18 Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering;

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Brother all your doing, and all you have done is talk around the truth.

You have not answered the question.

How do you suppose the children of God living in Persia were to keep this law of Moses which required obedience to do all that was written in the law.

Not some "spiritualized" version of the law of Moses but all the law of Moses.

The truth is, Gentiles who were God's children, living in Persia, were NOT under the law of Moses, to perform sacrifices, or keep feast days, or food laws...

Gentiles were never under Moses law.


JLB

Even if this were true (which it clearly is not), how does that change the fact that when we gentiles have faith in Christ and walk by the Spirit we violate no requirement of the law of Moses?

Paul said in several places faith in Christ fulfills ALL the law of Moses. But you say it does not, and try to somehow sew an irrelevant argument into the debate by saying gentiles were never under the law.

You have been very, very evasive and have not been addressing my posts here.

You won't learn what my argument means unless you cross examine it. I didn't say agree with it, I mean you simply won't even understand the argument until you start directly engaging me on the things I'm saying here. I have been doing that with your argument. Now you owe it to me to do the same for me.

Now start quoting direct parts of what I've been posting here and start challenging each point. We've already been over your arguments many times.

 

[JLB]

Lev 17:10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.

Lev 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Lev 22:18 Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering;

What is your point Reba?

Anyone who reads the Bible knows that there were "aliens" and foreigners who were among the children of Israel.

The were not allowed to keep Passover, as I posted.

Nor were they allowed many other requirements, as the Children of Israel were.

That is why I have stated the phrase "Gentiles living outside the land of Israel".

Maybe you can answer the question.

Were Gentiles who were the children of God, living in Persia, required to the adhere to all the ordinances that the law of Moses required, which includes sacrifices, feast days, food laws, Sabbath days, Sabbath weeks, Sabbath years, ceremonial washings, as well as putting to death those who broke the Sabbath?

JLB

 

[reba]

Gentiles are not children of God. Gentiles are heathens

 

[JLB]

Gentiles are not children of God. Gentiles are heathens

Gentiles like Abraham.

Gentiles like Enoch.

Gentiles like Job.

Gentiles like Cyrus?