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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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The Law, works and keeping his comandments
- Thread starter josefnospam
- Start date
- Jul 13, 2012
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Abraham was not a Jew.
Abraham was Syrian.
You made the statement that Gentiles were heathen and not the children of God.
28 Who says of Cyrus, 'He is My shepherd, And he shall perform all My pleasure, Saying to Jerusalem, "You shall be built," And to the temple, "Your foundation shall be laid." '
1 "Thus says the Lord to His anointed, To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held-- To subdue nations before him And loose the armor of kings, To open before him the double doors, So that the gates will not be shut: 2 'I will go before you And make the crooked places straight; I will break in pieces the gates of bronze And cut the bars of iron. 12 I have made the earth, And created man on it. I--My hands--stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, And I will direct all his ways; He shall build My city And let My exiles go free, Not for price nor reward," Says the Lord of hosts. Isaiah 44:28-45:2.12
Believe it or not there were the children of God living in other nations other than Israel.
The children of Israel under Moses were the natural offspring of the man Israel. These were the children of God because the covenant that Abraham was in with the Lord.
That doesn't mean there weren't "other" children of God like Abraham was in other nations, during the time of Moses.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
- Oct 31, 2011
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Technically correct.
Gentile means 'without God'.
But for the sake of his argument, gentile means of non-Jewish descent.
I answered his question. I said, 'yes'. But I guess answering his question means answering it the way he wants me to.
Jethro Bodine
Member
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I just want him to explain how the question means anything to what Paul says, that when a person has faith in Christ and lives according to the fruit of the Spirit, they do not violate ANY command in the law of Moses.
How is what Paul says true for faithful, obedient Jews, but not for faithful, obedient gentiles?
How is what Paul says true for faithful, obedient Jews, but not for faithful, obedient gentiles?
- Jul 13, 2012
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What scripture brought you to the conclusion that Gentiles, who were the children of God, who live in their own country were required to keep the law of Moses with all of the specified ordinances?
JLB
- Jul 13, 2012
- 38,421
- 8,054
So you are saying, during the time of Moses, there were no Gentiles who were considered children of God.
JLB
- Jul 13, 2012
- 38,421
- 8,054
I was not trying to be unclear... You have your quirks about certain scriptural things and i have mine ( quirks are not a bad thing) Calling people of God gentiles is one of my quirks... God's people are not heathens
G1484 The other definition was from the Hebrew this from the Greek...and again Strongs'
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.
G1484 The other definition was from the Hebrew this from the Greek...and again Strongs'
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.
- Jul 13, 2012
- 38,421
- 8,054
Maybe you start your own thread about quirks.
Meanwhile, please be gracious enough to give me an honest answer.
Do you believe the children of God, who were not Jews, living outside of Israel, were under the law of Moses, which includes all the ordinances, including but not limited to animal sacrifices for sin as specified by Moses, food laws, observing feast days, Sabbaths, which includes stoning people to death for breaking the Sabbath, ...?
JLB
I just plain ol dont know JLB . Lots of questions come up like what time frame, Abraham was before Moses and he knew how to offer sacrifices ...You are not speaking of the time in the desert because they were not in Israel then,,,, I would have to research a lot to answer more then i dont know. There is some time between the interning into Canaan and the time of Christ. ..... side tracked maybe but honest..( I dont play word games i dont have the ability. )
- Jul 13, 2012
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During the time of Moses - [Which means when Moses was given the law to give to the children of Israel]
Do you believe the scriptures teach us, the children of God, who were not Jews, living outside of Israel, were under the law of Moses, which includes all the ordinances, including but not limited to animal sacrifices for sin as specified by Moses, food laws, observing feast days, Sabbaths, which includes stoning people to death for breaking the Sabbath, ...?
JLB
I will have to re-read the scriptures to find an answer ..not something that can be done in a flash.... To see if scripture refers to any one who was not, shall i say in Moses' group.
I dont know, off the top of my head if, God had people outside those called the Children of Israel at that time... He could have they may not be spoke of in Scripture. If you have scripture at hand that says so please post it.... I has been about 7 years sense i read the Bible through guess its time to start a again...
I dont know, off the top of my head if, God had people outside those called the Children of Israel at that time... He could have they may not be spoke of in Scripture. If you have scripture at hand that says so please post it.... I has been about 7 years sense i read the Bible through guess its time to start a again...
- Jul 13, 2012
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13 These are the commandments and the judgments which the Lord commanded the children of Israel by the hand of Moses in the plains of Moab by the Jordan, across from Jericho.
2 And they said: "The Lord commanded my lord Moses to give the land as an inheritance by lot to the children of Israel, and my lord was commanded by the Lord to give the inheritance of our brother Zelophehad to his daughters. 3 Now if they are married to any of the sons of the other tribes of the children of Israel, then their inheritance will be taken from the inheritance of our fathers, and it will be added to the inheritance of the tribe into which they marry; so it will be taken from the lot of our inheritance. 4 And when the Jubilee of the children of Israel comes, then their inheritance will be added to the inheritance of the tribe into which they marry; so their inheritance will be taken away from the inheritance of the tribe of our fathers." Numbers 36:2-4,13
46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws which the Lord made between Himself and the children of Israel on Mount Sinai by the hand of Moses. Leviticus 26:46
4 Then the Lord said to him, "This is the land of which I swore to give Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, 'I will give it to your descendants.' I have caused you to see it with your eyes, but you shall not cross over there. Deuteronomy 34:4
"Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: 'When you come into the land which I give to you, and reap its harvest, then you shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest. Leviticus 23:10
"Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: 'When you come into the land which I give you, then the land shall keep a sabbath to the Lord. Leviticus 25:2
If a person desired to dwell with the children of Israel and be joined to that nation, then they must be circumcised and follow all the law the same way.
However, that is not the question.
The question is: Are Gentiles who don't dwell with the children of Israel required to keep the law of Moses?
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
- Oct 31, 2011
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There are only so many specific literal requirements of first covenant worship that you can keep outside of the Land.
If a person wanted to join the people of God--the Jewish nation of people--the law says the same law applies to you as it does to the native Israelite (there are more verses that say that than just what Reba posted). You don't have to dwell inside Israel to identify with and belong to the Jewish nation of Israel.
Out of the Land, as a gentile, who may or may not know about the specifics of the law, obviously, you can only keep the worship laws you 1) can actually keep outside of the Land, and 2) actually know about. This is subject is all well and good, but it simply has no bearing on the argument I'm setting forth here. And I'll show you why:
I insist you answer this question:
When Cyrus, or Nebuchadnezzar, had faith in God and that faith translated into the obedience of the fruit of the Spirit, did they or did they not uphold the requirements of God found in the law of Moses?
Paul says faith and obedience DOES uphold the requirements of the law. What difference does it make if the person having faith and obeying according to the fruit of the Spirit is Jewish or gentile? Does a gentile's love, or patience, or kindness not uphold the law of Moses, but a Jew's love, or patience, or kindness does? You'll have to explain this to us for us to give any more time to this contention you're bringing into the discussion. If a Jew's fruit of the Spirit fulfills ALL the law of Moses, why would a gentile's fruit of the Spirit not fulfill all of the law of Moses?
Probably what you need to do is start addressing Paul's statements about the fruit of the Spirit fulfilling ALL the law of Moses. Because your argument is with him and what he says, not me. I'm simply passing it along.
If a person wanted to join the people of God--the Jewish nation of people--the law says the same law applies to you as it does to the native Israelite (there are more verses that say that than just what Reba posted). You don't have to dwell inside Israel to identify with and belong to the Jewish nation of Israel.
Out of the Land, as a gentile, who may or may not know about the specifics of the law, obviously, you can only keep the worship laws you 1) can actually keep outside of the Land, and 2) actually know about. This is subject is all well and good, but it simply has no bearing on the argument I'm setting forth here. And I'll show you why:
I insist you answer this question:
When Cyrus, or Nebuchadnezzar, had faith in God and that faith translated into the obedience of the fruit of the Spirit, did they or did they not uphold the requirements of God found in the law of Moses?
Paul says faith and obedience DOES uphold the requirements of the law. What difference does it make if the person having faith and obeying according to the fruit of the Spirit is Jewish or gentile? Does a gentile's love, or patience, or kindness not uphold the law of Moses, but a Jew's love, or patience, or kindness does? You'll have to explain this to us for us to give any more time to this contention you're bringing into the discussion. If a Jew's fruit of the Spirit fulfills ALL the law of Moses, why would a gentile's fruit of the Spirit not fulfill all of the law of Moses?
Probably what you need to do is start addressing Paul's statements about the fruit of the Spirit fulfilling ALL the law of Moses. Because your argument is with him and what he says, not me. I'm simply passing it along.
- Jul 13, 2012
- 38,421
- 8,054
Thank you.
Case closed.
The first thing anyone who wanted to keep the law of Moses would be to dwell with the children of Israel.
Next be circumcised.
The is no ark of the Covenant in other lands.
No Levitical Priesthood in other lands.
No Temple that is in Jerusalem in other lands.
How in the world could you possibly think Gentiles, who are God's children, are required to uphold or keep, or be subject to, OR BE UNDER the law of Moses???
Gentiles were never under the law of Moses.
Gentiles were in fact under God's law, as Abraham was BEFORE he was circumcised.
Abraham is a picture of God the Father, who is both The Father of Jews and the Father of Gentiles.
Out of Abraham came both Jew and Gentile.
as it is written -
29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Romans 3:29-30
and again -
49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish." 51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad. John 11:49-52
Gentiles were never under the law of Moses during Moses day, how much now since that covenant has vanished away.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
- Oct 31, 2011
- 23,344
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I made it about as plain and clear as it can be made that you are going down a meaningless rabbit trail. Who had to keep the literal way of the first covenant has NOTHING to do with what I'm putting forth here. NOTHING!
Now please answer the question I asked of you in my last post (#338) and let's get to the point of what I've been saying here:
I insist you answer this question:
When Cyrus, or Nebuchadnezzar, had faith in God and that faith translated into the obedience of the fruit of the Spirit, did they or did they not uphold the requirements of God found in the law of Moses?
Paul says faith and obedience DOES uphold the requirements of the law. What difference does it make if the person having faith and obeying according to the fruit of the Spirit is Jewish or gentile? Does a gentile's love, or patience, or kindness not uphold the law of Moses, but a Jew's love, or patience, or kindness does? You'll have to explain this to us for us to give any more time to this contention you're bringing into the discussion. If a Jew's fruit of the Spirit fulfills ALL the law of Moses, why would a gentile's fruit of the Spirit not fulfill all of the law of Moses?
Probably what you need to do is start addressing Paul's statements about the fruit of the Spirit fulfilling ALL the law of Moses. Because your argument is with him and what he says, not me. I'm simply passing it along.
Now please answer the question I asked of you in my last post (#338) and let's get to the point of what I've been saying here:
I insist you answer this question:
When Cyrus, or Nebuchadnezzar, had faith in God and that faith translated into the obedience of the fruit of the Spirit, did they or did they not uphold the requirements of God found in the law of Moses?
Paul says faith and obedience DOES uphold the requirements of the law. What difference does it make if the person having faith and obeying according to the fruit of the Spirit is Jewish or gentile? Does a gentile's love, or patience, or kindness not uphold the law of Moses, but a Jew's love, or patience, or kindness does? You'll have to explain this to us for us to give any more time to this contention you're bringing into the discussion. If a Jew's fruit of the Spirit fulfills ALL the law of Moses, why would a gentile's fruit of the Spirit not fulfill all of the law of Moses?
Probably what you need to do is start addressing Paul's statements about the fruit of the Spirit fulfilling ALL the law of Moses. Because your argument is with him and what he says, not me. I'm simply passing it along.