The Law, works and keeping his comandments

[JLB]

(Okay, it's clear you can't overcome the indoctrination that you've been taught about the law. But I like this subject anyway, so I'll just chime in about the law.)

"...faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6 NIV)

No such thing? I see Paul plainly speaking about faith finding it's expression in the fruit of the Spirit. But you probably want to argue with him, right?

For purely forum entertainment purposes, what is it that you disagree with Paul about intangible faith in Christ being translated into actual behavioral obedience? No such thing? Really? I'm pretty sure you're one of those, along with me, who insists that faith MUST do this for that faith to save a person.

No such thing as faith in God "translating" into the fruit of the Spirit.

Just because a person has faith, does not mean they automatically have the fruit of the Spirit.

A person can have faith in Christ, but walk in the flesh.

The fruit of the Spirit takes time to develope in a person, that is why it is called fruit.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please show the post where I said that those who keep the law are cut off from Christ.

JLB

In posts 195, 206, 229 you post various passages from Galatians where Paul shows us how people are placing themselves in the bondage of the flesh and, therefore, under the condemnation of the law because of their dependence on the keeping of the law for justification (making themselves cursed--Galatians 3:11).

You do that to show how wrong it is for us to keep the law (as if that's what my argument is) and so you say, based on that, it's impossible that Paul can be saying that we gentiles uphold the law in Romans 3:31. But then you turn right around and say Romans 3:31 is saying Jews, not gentiles, uphold the law. Why would you say the upholding of the law in Romans 3:31 is for the Jews, not gentiles, but also post scriptures from Galatians that say keeping the law puts you under the bondage and curse of the law? Very confusing, illogical doctrine.

Why don't you just accept what Romans 3:31 plainly says: Faith upholds the law of Moses. Not upholds the WAY of the law of Moses (temple, priesthood, and sacrifice)--we know that from Hebrews. The author of Hebrews explains how faith in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins upholds and fulfills the requirements of the law that the old way sought to fulfill, but which are now fulfilled forever and perfectly through the new WAY of Temple, Priesthood, and Sacrifice and faith in Christ, aka, the New Covenant.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No such thing as faith in God "translating" into the fruit of the Spirit.

Just because a person has faith, does not mean they automatically have the fruit of the Spirit.

A person can have faith in Christ, but walk in the flesh.

The fruit of the Spirit takes time to develope in a person, that is why it is called fruit.

JLB

How does this mean there is no such thing as faith translating into the fruit of the Spirit?

Doesn't your faith ever translate into the deeds of the Spirit so that it's impossible to say there is no such thing as faith translating into the fruit of the Spirit?

 

[JLB]

How does this mean there is no such thing as faith translating into the fruit of the Spirit?

Doesn't your faith ever translate into the deeds of the Spirit so that it's impossible to say there is no such thing as faith translating into the fruit of the Spirit?

I have a born again nature and have been Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Gentiles were never required to keep the law of Moses.

Let's each pick one scripture in the context of the OP to discuss and move on.


You pick your scripture and I will pick mine.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What do you mean by "your account"?
Scripture would be helpful here I think.

5 ...to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness..." (Romans 4:5 NASB)

When God looks at the believer, he does not see our debt of guilt and unrighteousness. He sees righteousness. Righteousness credited to us (credited to our account) through faith in the blood of Christ to remove the debt of sin that used to be there.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Gentiles were never required to keep the law of Moses.

This has NOTHING to do with the Biblical fact that when you are peaceable, kind, forgiving, loving, thoughtful, faithful, honest, joyful, gentle, etc., as a result of having faith in Christ, that the law of Moses gets upheld and fulfilled.

"...through love serve one another.14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Galatians 5:13-14)

If you disagree, explain to me why Paul is wrong in saying this.

 

[Deborah13]

5 ...to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness..." (Romans 4:5 NASB)

When God looks at the believer, he does not see our debt of guilt and unrighteousness. He sees righteousness. Righteousness credited to us (credited to our account) through faith in the blood of Christ to remove the debt of sin that used to be there.

This is the question you asked... "Now, how do you apply that fulfillment to your account?"

Boy, I try to explain this.
I don't see it as I had an account, that it should be debted and credited.

I was a sinner, a criminal sentenced to death. Jesus said He would die in my place, which He did. This was all by God's grace.
But I was not made righteous (imputed righteousness) until I believed through faith. Also by God's grace.

Romans 4:4-5 KJV
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. [counted or reckoned]

So I just say that I uphold the laws of the covenant that I am a part of through Christ and I don't uphold the laws of a covenant I am not a part of in Christ.

 

[Deborah13]

This has NOTHING to do with the Biblical fact that when you are peaceable, kind, forgiving, loving, thoughtful, faithful, honest, joyful, gentle, etc., as a result of having faith in Christ, that the law of Moses gets upheld and fulfilled.

"...through love serve one another.14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Galatians 5:13-14)

If you disagree, explain to me why Paul is wrong in saying this.

I know your post is for JLB and I'm sure he'll answer but I have some verses that I think you will appreciate, I do. I was reading Andrew Wommack's commentary on these verses. He says that we fulfill the righteousness of the law, (yes the Law of Moses) And he says by faith in Christ.

Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

We keep the righteousness of the law by faith and by nature fulfill the law. They transgress the law by the letter and circumcision. This are both "IFs"

 

[Stegley]

The law and your work........."For as many as are under the works of the law are under the curse:............" Gal. 3:10

Christ and the law..........".Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law...."
Gal. 3:13

Keeping his commandments..........." And this is HIS commandment that we should believe on the name of his son Jesus Christ AND love one another........"
1st John 13:23

ALL you have to do is BELIEVE only in Jesus Christ and love the brethren.
His chosen people can and will rejoice in him alone and love the brethren who also embrace these precious truths. We also will tell the rest of the world about their need of this Great Saviour.

The rest of the Laws, the ten commandments and the Laws of Moses are our teacher to show us how bad we are. But we his people are no longer under the Law and the curse that goes with it. We are under the Grace and mercy of our Great God. We are all sinners but the price of our sins (death) are covered and paid for by his blood.

BEFORE and AFTER...........But before faith came we were kept UNDER THE LAW, shut up unto faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the Law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified....................BEFORE

But after that faith is come we are no longer under a school master...............AFTER Gal. 3:23 thru 25.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law but under grace. ...Romans 6:14 How precious is his word and truth to his chosen people.

Give God ALL the honor and praise now and forever. His name is Jesus Christ the risen Saviour and Lord of all.

Do you believe on The Lord Jesus Christ?

The law and your work........."For as many as are under the works of the law are under the curse:............" Gal. 3:10

Christ and the law..........".Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law...."
Gal. 3:13

Keeping his commandments..........." And this is HIS commandment that we should believe on the name of his son Jesus Christ AND love one another........"
1st John 13:23

ALL you have to do is BELIEVE only in Jesus Christ and love the brethren.
His chosen people can and will rejoice in him alone and love the brethren who also embrace these precious truths. We also will tell the rest of the world about their need of this Great Saviour.

The rest of the Laws, the ten commandments and the Laws of Moses are our teacher to show us how bad we are. But we his people are no longer under the Law and the curse that goes with it. We are under the Grace and mercy of our Great God. We are all sinners but the price of our sins (death) are covered and paid for by his blood.

BEFORE and AFTER...........But before faith came we were kept UNDER THE LAW, shut up unto faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the Law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified....................BEFORE

But after that faith is come we are no longer under a school master...............AFTER Gal. 3:23 thru 25.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law but under grace. ...Romans 6:14 How precious is his word and truth to his chosen people.

Give God ALL the honor and praise now and forever. His name is Jesus Christ the risen Saviour and Lord of all.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is the question you asked... "Now, how do you apply that fulfillment to your account?"

Boy, I try to explain this.
I don't see it as I had an account, that it should be debted and credited.

Maybe you can understand the concept of an 'account' better in regard to sin guilt.

I was a sinner, a criminal sentenced to death. Jesus said He would die in my place, which He did. This was all by God's grace.
But I was not made righteous (imputed righteousness) until I believed through faith. Also by God's grace.

Colossians 2 talks to this debt of sin. And as I say, it's easier to understand how we all have a figurative 'account' where the debt of our sin is recorded. But, as you know, that account is swept clean and righteousness is credited to that account instead.

I don't know if the original language is meant to speak directly to the concept of banking, but it does seem God gives us a line of credit of righteousness, a measure of righteousness so to speak, by the Holy Spirit. Our hope is to gain all of the righteousness of God at the appearing of Christ when sinful flesh will be completely gone and the fullness of the Spirit will be ours. That is the hope of the believer.

Romans 4:4-5 KJV
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. [counted or reckoned]

'Counted'...an accounting. Don't you agree?

So I just say that I uphold the laws of the covenant that I am a part of through Christ and I don't uphold the laws of a covenant I am not a part of in Christ.

What you and I don't have to uphold is the literal way of the first covenant. That is what got set aside by faith in Christ. But faith most certainly upholds the first covenant's requirements for temple, sacrifice, and priesthood, and Festival gathering, and Sabbaths. Hebrews clearly teaches us this. It's just that we do that in the new way of the New Covenant, as Hebrews teaches.

The requirements of the first covenant for those things themselves remain and get upheld in this New Covenant. Some think it's not appropriate to call those remaining requirements the requirements of the law (as in 'law of Moses'), but the Bible does, so I ask, "why can't we"?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I know your post is for JLB and I'm sure he'll answer but I have some verses that I think you will appreciate, I do. I was reading Andrew Wommack's commentary on these verses. He says that we fulfill the righteousness of the law, (yes the Law of Moses) And he says by faith in Christ.

Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

We keep the righteousness of the law by faith and by nature fulfill the law. They transgress the law by the letter and circumcision. This are both "IFs"

This passage in Romans is where I saw how Paul distinguishes between the requirements of the law and the way the law was kept. In short (I have to get to work), isn't circumcision a requirement' of the law? Yet Paul distinguishes between literal circumcision and circumcision of the heart. IOW, circumcision itself is the requirement of the law. Literal cutting is only a way that you do that--the old covenant way of doing that.

He says that old way counts for nothing, and that what counts is the requirement for circumcision itself, rightly accomplished (not nullified) in the cutting of the heart. This passage distinguishes between the requirements of the law and the way that requirement is fulfilled. The very distinction I've been trying to defend here. Might take a little time to sink in.

 

[JLB]

I know your post is for JLB and I'm sure he'll answer but I have some verses that I think you will appreciate, I do. I was reading Andrew Wommack's commentary on these verses. He says that we fulfill the righteousness of the law, (yes the Law of Moses) And he says by faith in Christ.

Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

We keep the righteousness of the law by faith and by nature fulfill the law. They transgress the law by the letter and circumcision. This are both "IFs"

The righteousness of the law… not the law of Moses, but the righteousness OF the law of Moses.



The law of Moses is not just the 10 commandments, or the righteous precepts of God within Moses law, but the whole complete law, that is a system, composed of literal sacrifices, Levitical Priesthood and ordinances and food laws and Sabbaths…, that was added UNTIL the seed should come.

God’s Eternal Laws that existed before the law of Moses, and were seen “in the law of Moses” is of for us to keep today. Ie; the Ten Commandments

Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Gentiles who keep the “righteousness of the law”.

In other words, Gentiles who keep the righteousness… seen in the law of Moses.

Gentiles who by nature, without ever having been taught the written law of Moses, do the righteousness in the law, show that they are a law unto themselves.

A law unto themselves, which means not under Moses Law.

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets. Romans 3:21

Righteousness APART from the law of Moses, means not the law of Moses.

Righteous parts of Moses law, such as Love God, love your neighbor, do not murder… did not originate with the law of Moses, but were contained in the law of Moses.



So that even though the law of Moses, with its literal requirements of sacrificing animals, keeping feast days, Sabbaths… has vanished away, it is still required by us to keep the Laws of God, that were made manifest within Moses law.

These laws are for us to do today.


This does not mean that by faith in Jesus Christ for salvation we somehow do not murder.


We ourselves have to literally not murder… according to God’s Law.

We ourselves have to show our love for God by obeying His Command to love our neighbor, literally.

Having faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, does not exempt you and me from literally not committing adultery, or lying, or stealing.

In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 1 John 3:10

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

This one of the point where Jethro and I disagree.


JLB

 

[Charle]

It's the difference between keeping the requirements of God through written words vs. keeping the requirements of God through the Spirit of God and faith in Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The righteousness of the law… not the law of Moses, but the righteousness OF the law of Moses.



The law of Moses is not just the 10 commandments, or the righteous precepts of God within Moses law, but the whole complete law, that is a system, composed of literal sacrifices, Levitical Priesthood and ordinances and food laws and Sabbaths…, that was added UNTIL the seed should come.

Yes, the SYSTEM of the law of Moses got laid aside. Not the requirements of the law of Moses.

"14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”" (Galatians 5:14 NIV)

Since you are saying Paul is wrong here, tell us which law of Moses does NOT get fulfilled by the obedience of the fruit of the Spirit through our faith in Jesus Christ? Paul is telling this to a group of people who were being careful to keep the literal Festival and Sabbath cycle of the law, so we know the law he is talking about is the law of Moses.

He's assuring them that their faith, and their obedience according to the fruit of the Spirit by that faith, fulfills all those requirements of the law (at the same time he's telling them not to keep the literal fulfillment of those laws). So you need to tell us which laws Paul is wrong about and do not get fulfilled by "faith expressing itself through love" (Galatians 5:6)

God’s Eternal Laws that existed before the law of Moses, and were seen “in the law of Moses” is of for us to keep today. Ie; the Ten Commandments

Literal sacrifice, circumcision, and Passover were before the law.

Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Gentiles who keep the “righteousness of the law”.

In other words, Gentiles who keep the righteousness… seen in the law of Moses.

It's okay to call the righteousness that gets upheld by faith the righteousness of the law of Moses. The Bible itself does. But you disagree, so again, what law in the law of Moses does not get upheld by faith in Christ and walking by the fruit of the Spirit?

Gentiles who by nature, without ever having been taught the written law of Moses, do the righteousness in the law, show that they are a law unto themselves.

A law unto themselves, which means not under Moses Law.

They have the requirements of the law of Moses written on their hearts, not the WAY of the law of Moses.

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets. Romans 3:21

Righteousness APART from the law of Moses, means not the law of Moses.

Context easily shows that 'apart from the law' means a declaration of righteousness that comes through faith in the blood of Christ to forgive sin as opposed to performing the works of the law to be declared righteous. It means a different WAY to be declared righteous (the Israelites thought the works of the law was the way to be declared righteous).

"30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. " (Romans 9:30-32 NASB)

Righteous parts of Moses law, such as Love God, love your neighbor, do not murder… did not originate with the law of Moses, but were contained in the law of Moses.

So are circumcision, sacrifice for sin, and the Passover.

Does faith in Christ fulfill these requirements? Paul says it does. Do you disagree?

So that even though the law of Moses, with its literal requirements of sacrificing animals, keeping feast days, Sabbaths… has vanished away, it is still required by us to keep the Laws of God, that were made manifest within Moses law.

Do you think faith does not uphold the requirements for blood sacrifice, Sabbath Rest, and, for example, the Day of Atonement? Hebrews speaks very directly to this matter of the Day of Atonement. It shows us how faith in Christ fulfills the requirements of that Day while setting aside the old WAY those requirements got fulfilled. It explains the fulfillment of the REQUIREMENTS of the law of Moses, but the setting aside of the WAY those eternal requirements used to be fulfilled. But you say there is no distinction possible between the two. Or if you do separate them, you can't call the requirements 'the law of Moses'. But we see the Bible does that.

These laws are for us to do today.


This does not mean that by faith in Jesus Christ for salvation we somehow do not murder.

"...faith expressing itself in love." (Galatians 5:6)

Faith is the very reason we can obey God where we could not before. This is an essential truth to the gospel.

We ourselves have to literally not murder… according to God’s Law.

We ourselves have to show our love for God by obeying His Command to love our neighbor, literally.

Having faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, does not exempt you and me from literally not committing adultery, or lying, or stealing.

Faith that does not act is not really faith at all.

Obedience is how we know we have faith in Christ, and how we show that faith. But that does not mean that what faith obeys does not uphold the law of Moses, but rather some other law. If a law existed outside of the law of Moses, before those laws were written down in what we know to be the law of Moses, those laws are still the law of Moses.

In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 1 John 3:10

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

This one of the point where Jethro and I disagree.


JLB

Not even remotely true.

I've taken a lot of abuse for suggesting that the faith that does not act is the faith that can not save, and that 'faith alone' (that is, faith that does not change a person into an ever increasing obedient person) can somehow be a faith that can justify, and therefore, save a person.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's the difference between keeping the requirements of God through written words vs. keeping the requirements of God through the Spirit of God and faith in Christ.

Yes, which is part of what Paul means here:

"...we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." (Romans 7:6 NIV)

 

[JLB]

Obedience is how we know we have faith in Christ, and how we show that faith.

Which is what you have learned from me in our discussions.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Which is what you have learned from me in our discussions.


JLB

If I did I'd be glad to acknowledge that.

But as it is I have a whole history of posts here to show you I learned it before this thread.

 

[JLB]

Yes, the SYSTEM of the law of Moses got laid aside. Not the requirements of the law of Moses.

The whole law of Moses got laid aside. God's Laws.

What is permanent is God's laws that were seen within the law of Moses.

Otherwise you are not being consistent with the scripture.

You don't get to say that part of the law of Moses gets laid aside.

The law was added.

The law was laid aside.

What remains is the Laws of God that were always in effect beginning with Adam.

The law of Moses made God's moral righteous precepts and commandments and judgements and laws [that Govern His Kingdom], manifest.

What the law of Moses did not do was provide for a living relationship of each and every person of the children of Israel, whereby they walked with the Lord in His Presence, and obeyed His Voice.

The law gave the rules, as well as the ordinances and feast days and sacrifices and food laws and sabbath Days which pointed and typified Christ.


What are the requirements, or the righteousness, within the law of Moses do we keep today?

The moral precepts? The feasts? The sacrifices? The Sabbath rules? The food laws? The Levitical Priesthood? The command to return to Jerusalem for a specified day or week?


JLB

 

[JLB]

If I did I'd be glad to acknowledge that.

But as it is I have a whole history of posts here to show you I learned it before this thread.

Your post show that you have correctly taught, A faith that does not "work", is a faith that can not save. [If that is not the exact wording, I apologize.]

I have shown that the "work" or "works", is the obedience of faith.

Obedience is the common denominator of Love, Faith and Righteousness.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The whole law of Moses got laid aside. God's Laws.

Right out of the box you're dead wrong.

"Love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18) did NOT get laid aside. And obviously, neither did the WAY that law of Moses gets literally fulfilled.

What is permanent is God's laws that were seen within the law of Moses.

Otherwise you are not being consistent with the scripture.

You don't get to say that part of the law of Moses gets laid aside.

But that's what you're doing. You're destroying your own argument for being consistent. You think you can 'do away' with 'love your neighbor as yourself', for example, but still retain 'love your neighbor as yourself'. They are not different. They are the EXACT SAME REQUIREMENT. But for some reason when it's written down in the law of Moses it's a DIFFERENT requirement of law? How does that work? Explain that. Start talking about HOW that exact same law gets upheld and you'll be heading in the right direction.

The law gave the rules, as well as the ordinances and feast days and sacrifices and food laws and sabbath Days which pointed and typified Christ.


What are the requirements, or the righteousness, within the law of Moses do we keep today?

The moral precepts? The feasts? The sacrifices? The Sabbath rules? The food laws? The Levitical Priesthood? The command to return to Jerusalem for a specified day or week?

ALL of them.

"14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”" (Galatians 5:14 NIV)

The WAY we uphold them is what got laid aside. Read your Bible!