The Law, works and keeping his comandments

[JLB]

Explain. I used scripture to make my point. Using scripture, how do you get that out of the passages I quoted?

Because that is what the scripture says -

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, Romans 3:21

Righteousness that is not apart of the law of Moses.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The context is more in line with the lawful requirement for sacrifice for sin. But even if it means obedience in general, what obediences would that be...the law of Moses, perhaps?

The obedience of faith.

 

[JLB]

The context is more in line with the lawful requirement for sacrifice for sin. But even if it means obedience in general, what obediences would that be...the law of Moses, perhaps?

The only way the law was righteousness to a person is if they obeyed the law and didn't break it.

Even then, as Paul says, the law is not of faith, and therefore can not please God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. Romans 7:6

We are certainly not under the law.


Those that were at one time under the law, have been redeemed from the law.

We are not under the authority of the law to hold us in bondage to the flesh anymore because old husband flesh has died and the law can not act as the marriage license that kept us bound to sinful flesh. Read the entire passage and you'll see that's what he's talking about.

This is what George M. had such a tough time with and claimed simply acknowledging the law put us in bondage of the law completely oblivious to what Paul says that it is fallen flesh that puts us in bondage to the authority of the law to lock us into sin. Paul explains that fallen flesh has died and therefore the law has no more AUTHORITY over us, like a marriage license, to keep us bound to that now dead flesh. Read it. Show me where it says what you say it does.

4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
Galatians 4:4

Now we all have been freed from the law of Moses, so that we serve God by faith as Abraham did, not according to the ordinances of the law of Moses.

We have been freed from the...

...way of the law (Romans 7:6)

...condemnation of the law (Romans 8:1-4)

...authority of the law to bind us to sin (Romans 7:1)

Feel free to address each of these using the scripture listed itself and other scriptures.

We now walk in a righteousness apart from the law, not under the law, apart from the law of Moses.

Show me where Paul says this. I showed you where he says righteousness is gained apart from doing the works of the law, and through faith in Christ all by itself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The obedience of faith.

What does the obedience of faith look like?

The law of Moses perhaps, as James teaches?

(Not the WAY of the law of Moses, but the requirements of the law of Moses.)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The only way the law was righteousness to a person is if they obeyed the law and didn't break it.

Which is exactly why the works of the law can not justify.

Even then, as Paul says, the law is not of faith, and therefore can not please God.

Read the context. The way of works is trying to be justified by doing the works of the law. This is directly opposed to the way of having faith in Christ to be justified. Read it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is no law. There is no such law that can condemn someone who walks in the Spirit.

Right. The law of Moses can not CONDEMN the person who walks in the Spirit. This is exactly what I've been saying. That is what we've been released from regarding the law. Through the Spirit we are no longer under the condemnation of the law. Walking in the Spirit UPHOLDS the law of Moses, not violates it. I've been saying this very thing all along.

 

[JLB]

Right. The law of Moses can not CONDEMN the person who walks in the Spirit. This is exactly what I've been saying. That is what we've been released from regarding the law. Through the Spirit we are no longer under the condemnation of the law. Walking in the Spirit UPHOLDS the law of Moses, not violates it. I've been saying this very thing all along.

It's a moot point since the scripture clearly says - Against such there is no law.

There is no law of God that is against a person who walks in the Spirit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's a moot point since the scripture clearly says - Against such there is no law.

There is no law of God that is against a person who walks in the Spirit.

Which would certainly include the law of Moses even in your doctrine, right?
If you say, 'yes', then you agree with me and Paul that faith upholds the law, even for us gentiles (Romans 3:31), not tramples it down under foot. So it's not so moot to our conversation.

Going to take a short nap in my easy chair...with my mouth hanging open, probably, lol. Then I'll be hitting the homework.

 

[JLB]

Which would certainly include the law of Moses even in your doctrine, right?
If you say, 'yes', then you agree with me and Paul that faith upholds the law, even for us gentiles (Romans 3:31), not tramples it down under foot. So it's not so moot to our conversation.

Going to take a short nap in my easy chair...with my mouth hanging open, probably, lol. Then I'll be hitting the homework.

The law, and its way of serving God, was added, until the Seed should come.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The law, and its way of serving God, was added, until the Seed should come.


JLB

Then how is it that walking in the Spirit upholds the requirements of the law if the law was added then taken away?

Your whole argument has been that walking in the Spirit doesn't uphold the requirements of the law because the law was temporary and is now gone in this time of walking in the Spirit.

This is a confusing and inconsistent reply to my post.

 

[JLB]

Then how is it that walking in the Spirit upholds the requirements of the law if the law was added then taken away?

Your whole argument has been that walking in the Spirit doesn't uphold the requirements of the law because the law was temporary and is now gone in this time of walking in the Spirit.

This is a confusing and inconsistent reply to my post.

I have my suspicions as to why this is confusing.

I will say what I have said before.

Jethro says, walking in the Spirit = under the law

Scripture says, led by the Spirit = 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Scripture says But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.


Please again, please don't just say things, and say that's what scripture says.

Please write out the scripture.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, no, no...you're missing it.

First you said this:
"It's a moot point since the scripture clearly says - Against such there is no law.

There is no law of God that is against a person who walks in the Spirit."

Then I said this:
"Which would certainly include the law of Moses even in your doctrine, right?
If you say, 'yes', then you agree with me and Paul that faith upholds the law, even for us gentiles (Romans 3:31), not tramples it down under foot. So it's not so moot to our conversation."

Then you said this in response:
"The law, and its way of serving God, was added, until the Seed should come."

Why did you not address what I posted?
It's pretty clear to me that when you are saying Galatians 5:23 means what I've been saying it means all along, that when you walk in the Spirit you uphold the law of Moses by not coming into violation of the law of Moses.

...23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." (Galatians 5:23 NIV)
I'm just confused that out of the blue you are now agreeing with me. I've been using this scripture, along with the other scriptures I've posted that say it, that faith in Christ and walking by the Spirit, even for gentiles, upholds the law of Moses, not violates it. Now you agree?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please again, please don't just say things, and say that's what scripture says.

Please write out the scripture.

JLB

If you want to continue the discussion I've got LOTS of scripture on the table, with explanation, defending my POV that you really should address in some way or another using those scriptures and others, but which you have not. You have to address my arguments directly just like I'm doing yours if you're going to get anywhere with your argument.

 

[JLB]

No, no, no...you're missing it.

First you said this:
"It's a moot point since the scripture clearly says - Against such there is no law.

There is no law of God that is against a person who walks in the Spirit."

Then I said this:
"Which would certainly include the law of Moses even in your doctrine, right?
If you say, 'yes', then you agree with me and Paul that faith upholds the law, even for us gentiles (Romans 3:31), not tramples it down under foot. So it's not so moot to our conversation."

Then you said this in response:
"The law, and its way of serving God, was added, until the Seed should come."

Why did you not address what I posted?
It's pretty clear to me that when you are saying Galatians 5:23 means what I've been saying it means all along, that when you walk in the Spirit you uphold the law of Moses by not coming into violation of the law of Moses.

...23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." (Galatians 5:23 NIV)
I'm just confused that out of the blue you are now agreeing with me. I've been using this scripture, along with the other scriptures I've posted that say it, that faith in Christ and walking by the Spirit, even for gentiles, upholds the law of Moses, not violates it. Now you agree?

Brother, I have posted my response to this line of thinking, and you continually ignore it.

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18

Paul just said, in verse 18, if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Yet, you are still trying to convince me that the phrase; against such there is no law, means we are under Moses law.

Can't you see how ridiculous this line of reasoning is?

Brother you have some good things in you to say. But you are stuck in this rut of thinking Moses law is for Gentiles and for Christians.

Moses law, as a way of keeping God's law, has vanished.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Brother, I have posted my response to this line of thinking, and you continually ignore it.

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18

Paul just said, in verse 18, if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Yet, you are still trying to convince me that the phrase; against such there is no law, means we are under Moses law.

Can't you see how ridiculous this line of reasoning is?

"14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”" (Galatians 5:14 NIV)

"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." (Galatians 5:18 NIV)

To say that 'not under the law' means 'not fulfilling the law'--the fulfilling of the law that he just said the fruit of the Spirit does do--makes these two verses directly contradict each other.

But when the second reference is referring to being released from the condemnation of the law,(not from the requirements of the law that he just said get fulfilled when we love) the passage makes sense, AND stays in harmony with the whole context of his teaching in the Bible that says we are no longer under the condemnation of the law when we walk by the Spirit:

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus...who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Romans 8:1,4 NIV)

 

[JLB]

"14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”" (Galatians 5:14 NIV)

"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." (Galatians 5:18 NIV)

To say that 'not under the law' means 'not fulfilling the law'--the fulfilling of the law that he just said the fruit of the Spirit does do--makes these two verses directly contradict each other.

But when the second reference is referring to being released from the condemnation of the law,(not from the requirements of the law that he just said get fulfilled when we love) the passage makes sense, AND stays in harmony with the whole context of his teaching in the Bible that says we are no longer under the condemnation of the law when we walk by the Spirit:

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus...who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Romans 8:1,4 NIV)

Now you are talking about the law of sin and death, not the law of Moses.

If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

All the law is fulfilled by Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus fulfilled the law by loving His Neighbor perfectly,by laying down His Life for them, as well as loving God perfectly.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

All the law is fulfilled by Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus fulfilled the law by loving His Neighbor perfectly,by laying down His Life for them, as well as loving God perfectly.

JLB

Since he did that for me, I don't have to love my neighbor as myself. I'm not 'under' the law. Jesus kept it for me.

This is what is so terribly wrong with the church's doctrine about the law. And how it leads to it's distorted doctrine about grace. Grace which they've made into a license to sin with impunity.

When you love...THAT is when the law of Moses is fulfilled. That is what the Bible plainly says. But so many people think that just because they believe in Christ, who did indeed keep the law perfectly and fulfill it's demands for justice, the law is now completely fulfilled for them with no further action required by them...unless they want to...for the sake of reward, not for avoiding damnation. (Note: I did not say for securing justification.)

 

[JLB]

Since he did that for me, I don't have to love my neighbor as myself. I'm not 'under' the law. Jesus kept it for me.

This is what is so terribly wrong with the church's doctrine about the law. And how it leads to it's distorted doctrine about grace. Grace which they've made into a license to sin with impunity.

When you love...THAT is when the law of Moses is fulfilled. That is what the Bible plainly says. But so many people think that just because they believe in Christ, who did indeed keep the law perfectly and fulfill it's demands for justice, the law is now completely fulfilled for them with no further action required by them...unless they want to...for the sake of reward, not for avoiding damnation. (Note: I did not say for securing justification.)

If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

You are not under the law of Moses.

God's Law is to love, for God is love.

You think loving God and loving people somehow started with Moses law?

The Laws of God were seen in the law of Moses.

Abraham walked in God's Laws 430 years before the law of Moses.

Again, Jesus fulfilled all the law of Moses.

All the Law (Torah) and the Prophets hang on these two commandments....

We ourselves must obey God's Law to not lie, steal, commit adultery....

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

You are not under the law of Moses.

How does being led by the Spirit NOT fulfill the law of Moses? Explain. Paul says it does.

God's Law is to love, for God is love.

You think loving God and loving people somehow started with Moses law?

That is not the point. Just tell me how loving people does NOT fulfill the law of Moses. Paul says it does.

The Laws of God were seen in the law of Moses.

So the law of Moses is a subset of the laws of God, yet walking by the Spirit fulfills God's law, but not the law of Moses. How does that work? Paul says the law of Moses is fulfilled by walking in the Spirit. Explain why you disagree.

Abraham walked in God's Laws 430 years before the law of Moses.

If, as you are suggesting, walking by the Spirit fulfills the greater law of God, how can it not fulfill the lesser law of Moses, a subset of the law of God? Explain this. Paul says it does.

Again, Jesus fulfilled all the law of Moses.

All the Law (Torah) and the Prophets hang on these two commandments....

We ourselves must obey God's Law to not lie, steal, commit adultery....

JLB

So somehow when I don't lie, steal, commit adultery, etc. I fulfill God's law, but not the subset of God's law, the law of Moses, that has the exact same requirements of law in it. How does that work? Paul says very, very clearly I DO fulfill the law of Moses when I don't lie, steal, commit adultery, etc. But you say I do not.


This is what you have to overcome (the plain words of scripture) for your doctrine to be even remotely true:

"14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”" (Galatians 5: NIV)