The Law, works and keeping his comandments

[Jethro Bodine]

7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 1 Corinthians 5:7-8

As I said , Christ fulfilled the Passover. He was indeed sacrificed for us. We are to live a life that is without sin, free from malice and wickedness, with sincerity and truth, as Abraham did.

The Truth is these are God's Laws that Abraham walked in, 430 years before the law of Moses.

Okay, in this example, does the law of Moses get upheld when we believe and obey, or not?

Simple question.

If you say 'no'...good grief, how can you say no?

If you say 'yes', then you can begin to see what I'm saying.

The Truth is Gods Laws were seen, made manifest, brought to light, and made known through the law of Moses. These laws were always in the earth from Adam until Moses.

But for some reason faith upholds them before the law, but not after????

What was also in the law of Moses were sacrifices of animals, special feast days, food laws, special Sabbath requirements, special priesthood requirements, as well as laws for putting to death those that violated.

Yes, that is the WAY of the law of Moses. That is what 'vanished away', not the requirements of the law of Moses that even you acknowledge existed before Mt. Sinai.

The whole law of Moses incorporated these law and ordinances.

We can not separate the one from the other, unless the whole law has been changed and set aside.

The things in the law that point us to a righteous lifestyle, we are to take heed to, though the whole law was added until Christ, and has been fulfilled by Him and has been set aside and has vanished away.

How does Paul say the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread requirements get fulfilled in this New Covenant? You know the answer. Just say it! But you insist that faith does not, and doesn't have to, uphold the law of Moses? How can you say that?

However, when someone has a nature that does the things in the law, without ever been instructed in the law, they show that they themselves are a law unto themselves, NOT BEING UNDER THE LAW, but having the nature of God and His Laws written in their mind and on their heart, they in fact are walking in a righteousness APART FROM THE LAW.

APART FROM THE LAW.


JLB

But, sadly, your interpretation of 'apart from the law' is not supported by the text you're quoting that from.

Apart from the law does not mean 'without the written knowledge of the law' in the passages you're quoting. They really don't. Check it out.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please show the scripture.

The fruit of the spirit, against such there is NO LAW.

The scripture says NO LAW.

You say the law of Moses.

I believe scripture.

Reba! Help! I already posted the reference a dozen times at least.

 

[JLB]

Reba! Help! I already posted the reference a dozen times at least.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Yet you say this uphold the law of Moses.

Paul says no law.

You say Moses law.


Your scripture doesn't say what you say it says.

 

[JLB]

Okay, in this example, does the law of Moses get upheld when we believe and obey, or not?

Simple question.

If you say 'no'...good grief, how can you say no?

If you say 'yes', then you can begin to see what I'm saying.




But for some reason faith upholds them before the law, but not after????



Yes, that is the WAY of the law of Moses. That is what 'vanished away', not the requirements of the law of Moses that even you acknowledge existed before Mt. Sinai.




How does Paul say the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread requirements get fulfilled in this New Covenant? You know the answer. Just say it! But you insist that faith does not, and doesn't have to, uphold the law of Moses? How can you say that?



But, sadly, your interpretation of 'apart from the law' is not supported by the text you're quoting that from.

Apart from the law does not mean 'without the written knowledge of the law' in the passages you're quoting. They really don't. Check it out.

Apart from the law means NOT UNDER THE LAW.

You say gentiles are under the law.

You have to be under something to "hold it up".


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Yet you say this uphold the law of Moses.

Paul says no law.

You say Moses law.


Your scripture doesn't say what you say it says.

If that's how you want to interpret what he's saying then it destroys your argument for another 'law', too. Think about it.

 

[JLB]

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:21-25


Show me where in these verse's where the Law of Moses comes in to play.

The Law of Moses plays no part in Salvation.

The Law of Moses plays no part in Righteousness.

The Law of Moses plays no part in Justification.

The Law of Moses plays no part in being filled with the Holy Spirit.

Let's uncomplicate the whole thing and find out what the law of Moses has to do with us.

Let's just check off all the things that the law of Moses does not have to do with, THEN let's talk about the only thing that the law DOES have to do with.


JLB

 

[JLB]

If that's how you want to interpret what he's saying then it destroys your argument for another 'law', too. Think about it.

If you do not want to weed out the things in Moses law that do not pertain to us, as listed above, then pick a scripture and I will pick a scripture and we will discuus that scripture.

What scripture best describes your position?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Show me where in these verse's where the Law of Moses comes in to play.

The Law of Moses plays no part in Salvation.

The Law of Moses plays no part in Righteousness.

The Law of Moses plays no part in Justification.

The Law of Moses plays no part in being filled with the Holy Spirit.

Let's uncomplicate the whole thing and find out what the law of Moses has to do with us.

Let's just check off all the things that the law of Moses does not have to do with, THEN let's talk about the only thing that the law DOES have to do with.

JLB

For the sake of brevity, and in keeping with the context of this discussion, the law of Moses has nothing to do with these things. So let's move on to that which you aren't addressing that I brought up.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you do not want to weed out the things in Moses law that do not pertain to us, as listed above, then pick a scripture and I will pick a scripture and we will discuus that scripture.

What scripture best describes your position?


JLB

Prolly this one:

14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

The context in which he says this is the Galatians keeping of the literal Festival and Sabbath cycle of the law of Moses. They were doing that for the purpose of trying to be justified by that work instead of being justified by faith in Christ apart from the works of the law--the way they started out.

Paul assures them that the law of Moses they seek to abide by is satisfied when they walk in love, the fruit of the Spirit.

An example and explanation of this fulfilling of the ceremonial laws of Moses by way of faith and obedience is in his letter to the Corinthians, where he tells them Christ is the fulfillment of the requirement for a Passover Lamb, and that our obedience is the fulfillment of the casting away of the leaven required in the Feast of Unleavened Bread (which follows immediately after Passover).

So I will say again, this shows us plainly how Moses' requirement for a Passover and a Feast of Unleavened Bread did not get laid aside, it gets fulfilled and upheld by faith and obedience in the Holy Spirit as Paul shows us. That is the new way to serve those Mosaic requirements. What got laid aside was the old way to serve those Mosaic requirements. The Mosaic requirement itself for a Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread did not 'vanish'. The old way of fulfilling that requirement did.

 

[JLB]

Prolly this one:

14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

The context in which he says this is the Galatians keeping of the literal Festival and Sabbath cycle of the law of Moses. They were doing that for the purpose of trying to be justified by that work instead of being justified by faith in Christ apart from the works of the law--the way they started out.

Paul assures them that the law of Moses they seek to abide by is satisfied when they walk in love, the fruit of the Spirit.

An example and explanation of this fulfilling of the ceremonial laws of Moses by way of faith and obedience is in his letter to the Corinthians, where he tells them Christ is the fulfillment of the requirement for a Passover Lamb, and that our obedience is the fulfillment of the casting away of the leaven required in the Feast of Unleavened Bread (which follows immediately after Passover).

So I will say again, this shows us plainly how Moses' requirement for a Passover and a Feast of Unleavened Bread did not get laid aside, it gets fulfilled and upheld by faith and obedience in the Holy Spirit as Paul shows us. That is the new way to serve those Mosaic requirements. What got laid aside was the old way to serve those Mosaic requirements. The Mosaic requirement itself for a Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread did not 'vanish'. The old way of fulfilling that requirement did.

11 And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. 12 I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off! 13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another! 16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

A.] The whole law is a reference to the Torah which includes the book of Genesis. Abraham walk in God's Laws 430 years before the law. For the law was added...

The law was added... to the Covenant of Abraham.

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Your doctrine says just the opposite. If you are led by the Spirit your are under the law upholding it.

Jethro says, Led by the Spirit = placing the the one being led by the Spirit back under the law of Moses in order to uphold the law of Moses.

Paul says, Led by the Spirit = not being under the law.

The law of Moses says -

18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord. Leviticus 19:18

The smiting and killing of Gentiles were required under the law of Moses. to love your neighbor, meant of the "children of Israel".

law of Moses = defined neighbor as natural children of Israel.


The Law of the Lord says -

43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,


Law of the Lord = Defined neighbor as Gentile and Jew alike. Enemies as well as natural countrymen.


The law has changed, because it has been set aside.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

11 And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. 12 I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off! 13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another! 16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

A.] The whole law is a reference to the Torah which includes the book of Genesis. Abraham walk in God's Laws 430 years before the law. For the law was added...

The law was added... to the Covenant of Abraham.

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Your doctrine says just the opposite. If you are led by the Spirit your are under the law upholding it.

Jethro says, Led by the Spirit = placing the the one being led by the Spirit back under the law of Moses in order to uphold the law of Moses.

Paul says, Led by the Spirit = not being under the law.

The law of Moses says -

18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord. Leviticus 19:18

The smiting and killing of Gentiles were required under the law of Moses. to love your neighbor, meant of the "children of Israel".

law of Moses = defined neighbor as natural children of Israel.


The Law of the Lord says -

43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,


Law of the Lord = Defined neighbor as Gentile and Jew alike. Enemies as well as natural countrymen.


The law has changed, because it has been set aside.


JLB

When you walk by the fruit of the Spirit, you do not sin, therefore, you are not 'under' the condemnation of the law. Obviously, when you walk by the Spirit you are in fact upholding and 'under' the law in that sense.

This is the only way to reconcile the two seemingly contradictory statements Paul makes in the passage, that 1) we fulfill the entire law when we love others (vs. 14), and (2) when we love we are not under the law (vs. 18). So you can see that's it's impossible that being 'under' the law in the passage means upholding the law, or else he's simply contradicting himself. But it makes perfect sense that being 'under' the law means just how it's used in Romans where being 'under' the law means being under the judgment and condemnation of the law because you sin.

This goes back to the famous Romans 7 passage where George M. was convinced that simply acknowledging the law is what puts a person into the bondage of the flesh. No, the flesh--disobedience--is what puts you into the bondage of sin and the law that keeps sinners steadfast in that sin. Walking by the Spirit keeps you out of the bondage of sin and the power of the law to keep you there, and UPHOLDS the requirements of the law, not removes you from the obligation of those requirements.

 

[JLB]

When you walk by the fruit of the Spirit, you do not sin, therefore, you are not 'under' the condemnation of the law. Obviously, when you walk by the Spirit you are in fact upholding and 'under' the law in that sense.

This is the only way to reconcile the two seemingly contradictory statements Paul makes in the passage, that 1) we fulfill the entire law when we love other (vs. 14), and (2) when we love we are not under the law (vs. 18). So you can see that's it's impossible that being 'under' the law means upholding the law, or else he's simply contradicting himself. But it makes perfect sense that being 'under' the law means just how it's used in Romans where being 'under' the law means being under the judgment and condemnation of the law because you sin.

This goes back to the famous Romans 7 passage where George M. was convinced that simply acknowledging the law is what puts a person into the bondage of the flesh. No, the flesh--disobedience--is what puts you into the bondage of sin and the law that keeps sinners steadfast in that sin. Walking by the Spirit keeps you out of the bondage of sin and the power of the law to keep you there, and UPHOLDS the requirements of the law, not removes you from the obligation of those requirements.

Rather that continue with the scripture you posted, and discussing it, as well as my post, which addresses the scripture you yourself post to show how walking in the Spirit, uphols the law of Moses.

when Paul clearly states that by walking in the Spirit, we are in fact NOT UNDER THE LAW.

Jethro says, walking in the Spirit = under the law.

Paul say, walking in the Spirit = NOT under the Law.


Furthermore, the law of Moses defines neighbor as children of your people.

Law of the Lord defines neighbor as EVERYONE.


These are the points we are discussing from your scripture.


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

Ah, yes, true to form as expected. The indoctrination of the church tells everybody that any and all discussion about the law means you're insisting that salvation is by keeping the law.

Let me edit what you said so you'll see clearly that what I'm defending has nothing to do with the law being how a person is saved:

"What you fail to grasp is that the requirements for the festival cycle and everything else in the law have absolutely no salvational value..."

You need not say any more. The law has no value toward justification. Period. This is not a discussion about us having to keep the literal Festival cycle to be saved. But I know that it will be hard for you to see that. How you are getting that out of what I've been saying is beyond me.



Now tell me what legal requirements I've been saying everybody has to keep. I've made it plainly clear that this is not about keeping the letter of the law observances. But, as I say, I understand why you can only hear it that way.

I will give you credit for seeing that a person can keep some of the law, and because they have faith in God. You're one up on a lot of folk. Perhaps you understand that it is the effort of trying to be justified by the law that requires a person to keep ALL of it.

Perhaps part of your problem is your own expectations of others, while insisting anyone disagreeing with you must have been indoctrinated. Unfortunately what you cannot let go of is this idea that we Christians are under the requirements of the law of Moses. I've repeatedly asked you to list them, yet you consider it too much effort and just characterize them as 'many'. I believe that Jesus has kept the requirements of Moses' law once and for all, so that we are now free from them. The only commandments we are to live by as Christians are to love God, and to love others as ourselves. Any other urge we might feel is required by God as an identification with Him is actually just a chosen expression of these two fundamental commands; the particular way of expression is not actually required and will not save us or even contribute to our salvation. In Grace you are free to express your love in all manner of ways which recall the imagery of the law of Moses. However they are not required because your efforts will always fall short of perfection and be unacceptable to God as worthy of salvation, yet they are meritorious as expressions of love provided they are done in faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Rather that continue with the scripture you posted, and discussing it, as well as my post, which addresses the scripture you yourself post to show how walking in the Spirit, uphols the law of Moses.

when Paul clearly states that by walking in the Spirit, we are in fact NOT UNDER THE LAW.

Jethro says, walking in the Spirit = under the law.

Paul say, walking in the Spirit = NOT under the Law.

I see you did not understand what I wrote. 'Under the law' means two different things in what you just wrote, so that they can not be compared as you are unfairly doing.

My argument is, being 'under' the law can not mean what Paul just got done saying that we ARE under the law in the sense that we uphold it by walking in the Spirit. It's impossible for 'under the law' to mean what you insist it means in the passage. Impossible.

Paul say: We are 'under the law', so to speak, in that we uphold and fulfill the law by our faith in Christ and walking by the Spirit.

Then Paul say: We are NOT under the law in that when we walk by the Spirit we are not in violation of the law that we should under the condemnation of the law.

The whole problem with the doctrine you defend is being 'under the law' as Paul uses that means being under the condemnation of the law, not upholding the law in righteousness as you are using it. In Christ, we uphold the law of Moses, and, as a result of doing that, we are no longer under the condemnation of the law.

The church can't hear this because it has been indoctrinated to automatically think 'it's impossible for a believer to be condemned by the law (because that's how utterly gracious salvation is...I can even sin and not be condemned by that sin)'. But Paul speaks very clearly in Romans 8 that when you walk in the Spirit, that is when the requirements of the law are met in you and you are not condemned by the law. But the church has been taught that simply believing in Christ, apart from any consideration of obedience, does that. That passage, especially, is a hard pill for the popular doctrine of law in the church today to swallow.

Furthermore, the law of Moses defines neighbor as children of your people.

Law of the Lord defines neighbor as EVERYONE.


These are the points we are discussing from your scripture.

JLB

Let's test your assertion against the law:

"The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt" (Leviticus 19:34 NASB)

"He executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and shows His love for the alien by giving him food and clothing. So show your love for the alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt." (Deuteronomy 10:18-19 NASB)

There is nothing true about your assertion that 'neighbor', as in 'love your neighbor as yourself', only means a fellow Israelite in the law, while in the New Covenant 'neighbor' means everybody.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Perhaps part of your problem is your own expectations of others, while insisting anyone disagreeing with you must have been indoctrinated. Unfortunately what you cannot let go of is this idea that we Christians are under the requirements of the law of Moses.

I showed you that we are. Address that with some substance.

I've repeatedly asked you to list them, yet you consider it too much effort and just characterize them as 'many'.

I did list them.

It would take me hours to list them all. That's the beauty of the new way of the Spirit. The requirements of the law get fulfilled whether you know each and every one of them by heart, or not. When you walk in the fruit of the Spirit you leave no requirement of the law of Moses unfulfilled, but if you disagree with Paul about that start listing what doesn't get fulfilled by faith in Christ and walking in the fruit of the Spirit, okay?

I believe that Jesus has kept the requirements of Moses' law once and for all, so that we are now free from them. The only commandments we are to live by as Christians are to love God, and to love others as ourselves.

I showed you where Paul says when you do that (love God/ others) you uphold the ENTIRE law of Moses. Paul even provides a plain explanation of how that works in regard to Passover and The Feast of Unleavened Bread. Why did you not catch that? I know why, but I want you to ask yourself why in the hope your eyes will be opened to the power of the indoctrination that closes the eyes of the church to the truth. .

Any other urge we might feel is required by God as an identification with Him is actually just a chosen expression of these two fundamental commands; the particular way of expression is not actually required and will not save us or even contribute to our salvation.

Do you really think I've suggested that we uphold the law in order to be saved? Once again I'm asking you this so YOU can see the blockage in front of your own eyes.

In Grace you are free to express your love in all manner of ways which recall the imagery of the law of Moses. However they are not required because your efforts will always fall short of perfection and be unacceptable to God as worthy of salvation, yet they are meritorious as expressions of love provided they are done in faith.

And I have to ask, not for my benefit, but yours, "why do you still think this is about the literal keeping of the worship laws in the law of Moses. Have I said anything to that effect? I've said the exact opposite"

 

[JLB]

Jethro said:

I see you did not understand what I wrote. 'Under the law' means two different things in what you just wrote, so that they can not be compared as you are unfairly doing.

My argument is, being 'under' the law can not mean what Paul just got done saying that we ARE under the law in the sense that we uphold it by walking in the Spirit. It's impossible for 'under the law' to mean what you insist it means in the passage. Impossible.

Paul say: We are 'under the law', so to speak, in that we uphold and fulfill the law by our faith in Christ and walking by the Spirit.

Then Paul say: We are NOT under the law in that when we walk by the Spirit we are not in violation of the law that we should under the condemnation of the law.

The whole problem with the doctrine you defend is being 'under the law' as Paul uses that means being under the condemnation of the law, not upholding the law in righteousness as you are using it. In Christ, we uphold the law of Moses, and, as a result of doing that, we are no longer under the condemnation of the law.

The church can't hear this because it has been indoctrinated to automatically think 'it's impossible for a believer to be condemned by the law (because that's how utterly gracious salvation is...I can even sin and not be condemned by that sin)'. But Paul speaks very clearly in Romans 8 that when you walk in the Spirit, that is when the requirements of the law are met in you and you are not condemned by the law. But the church has been taught that simply believing in Christ, apart from any consideration of obedience, does that. That passage, especially, is a hard pill for the popular doctrine of law in the church today to swallow.

I have shown repeatedly that you misquote Paul, over and over.

Don't bother posting anything else that doesn't have the full scripture written out.

I will just ignore it.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Jethro said:

Let's test your assertion against the law:

"The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt" (Leviticus 19:34 NASB)

"He executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and shows His love for the alien by giving him food and clothing. So show your love for the alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt." (Deuteronomy 10:18-19 NASB)
There is nothing true about your assertion that 'neighbor', as in 'love your neighbor as yourself', only means a fellow Israelite in the law, while in the New Covenant 'neighbor' means everybody.

So everyone who dwells in the land of Israel and has joined themselves to them, whereby THEY LIVE IN THE ACTUAL LAND ARE CONSIDERED NEIGHBORS.

who resides with you,shall be to you as the native among you.

The nations that were in the land were to be killed and driven out.

Nice try.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I see you did not understand what I wrote. 'Under the law' means two different things in what you just wrote, so that they can not be compared as you are unfairly doing.

My argument is, being 'under' the law can not mean what Paul just got done saying that we ARE under the law in the sense that we uphold it by walking in the Spirit. It's impossible for 'under the law' to mean what you insist it means in the passage. Impossible.

Paul say: We are 'under the law', so to speak, in that we uphold and fulfill the law by our faith in Christ and walking by the Spirit.

Jethro says, walking in the Spirit = under the law.

Paul say, walking in the Spirit = NOT under the Law.


JLB

 

[JLB]

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come...

By saying added, The Holy Spirit is indicating the law was a part of something greater.

By saying till, The Holy Spirit is indicating the law was temporary.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The nations that were in the land were to be killed and driven out.

Ah, I see now what you're driving at.

Do you think the church is not to uphold this requirement of law today?

We are in fact still obligated to drive out the original inhabitants of the land.

But you won't get it if you keep thinking in the WAY of the old covenant.

The requirements of the law remain.

The way of the law, the illustration, has been laid aside.