"The Many Errors of Calvinism" -

[zeke]

Zeke i dont seem to see your answers to some of the questions asked of you. Did you answer?

Hi reba - I have been traveling all afternoon and just got back on line but will try to answer questions in order of when asked as time permits. If I miss any that are of interest to you please let me know. :p

 

[zeke]

Obligated? Your Obligated to do works? NO. God does not need your obligation to him.

obligation - requirement to take some course of action​

You are missing the mark again my friend. We are obligated to work the works of God. Read the Book. No one will be saved without obedience to the gospel of Christ – “that form of doctrine to which you were delivered”. We either submit to God via “obedience leading to righteousness” or we remain “slaves to sin” that results in separation from God and spiritual death. Which option did you choose via free-will? Or have you never “obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered"? Are you sure you are not obligated to submit to God via obedience? Does your theology make such obedience an option - only if you can find the time?

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
(Rom 6:16-18)​

 

[zeke]

to clarify what i mean. the rcc teaches that if im so holy in deed that my righteouness can be imputed by the pope or bishop or priest on a saint in purgatory. that isnt in anywise biblical. and many a lay catholics dont know the difference tween working for salvation or works as evidence OF SALVATION! IM the later the catholics for the most part are the former.

As noted earlier - the non-biblical doctrine of salvation via works of merit is an egregious error.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
(Eph 2:8)​

 

[zeke]

No, it just comes natural. It's part of the person because that person is living in the will of God. The works are part of a new nature not of man but of God....sorry WIP, I had to answer that

But you may have answered incorrectly in your hast - yes? Is it really your position that man is not required to "work the works of God"? Is man required to believe that God is who He claims to be - believe via faith that Jesus is the Christ - the Son of God? Think before before you answer this time and search the Book a little closer.

Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
(Joh 6:28-29)​

Have you worked the works of God? Have you "believed in Him whom He sent"? Was it required or optional that you believe? Did you choose to believe that Jesus is the Christ - God's only begotten Son - or were you programmed from the foundation of the world to believe - and thus you had no choice?

 

[zeke]

Zeke. you are misusing Old Testament scripture. Ezekiel 18 : 26 and thinking this is connected to the new covenant in the same way.

No misuse Danus - the universal truth taught in Ezekiel 18 is found throughout both OT and NT – the truth that the righteous man (Christian) who turns from his righteousness to do evil and refuses to repent of his sins will die for the evil he has done. This universal truth has always been the death knell of the Calvinist error of "once saved always save" and it still is. Where does that leave you?

 

[zeke]

Exactly where does Calvin say God forces men to obey ?

Where it teaches the error that the non-elect can’t repent and the elect can’t perish. You understand that concept - right?

Exactly where does Calvin say anything about a strait jacket ?

You may be confused - Robert Shank (Baptist) correctly sums up Calvinism as the "strait jacket of an antecedent decree of positive unconditional election and reprobation, while insisting that they are ‘free’"...

“There is nothing about God’s gift of believers to be the heritage of the Son who died for them which somehow transforms the Gospel’s ‘whosoever will’ into a ‘whosoever must’ and a ‘most of you shan’t.’ There is nothing about it which binds men in the strait jacket of an antecedent decree of positive unconditional election and reprobation, while insisting that they are ‘free€™â€ (Life in the Son)​

 

[jasoncran]

if the torah was a different way being rightoeus with god in that one had to work for it(which they didnt) then why is king david said to have been a man after gods heart? or that he also said in psalm 119 i will hide thy law in my heart so that it might sin against thee. funny churches teach that if one wants to grow closer and more holy get into the word and yet teach what many call a works based salvation for the ancient hebrews.

 

[Danus]

Where it teaches the error that the non-elect can’t repent and the elect can’t perish. You understand that concept - right?

The non-elect are the un-repentant. Some people repent in their life and some do not. This is a factual reality of all those who live and then die.

Right now there are people who have not repented and will never repent. they will die that way. They are the non-elect. We don't know, nor can we tell who those people are, but God does know.

Your argument is that the guy down your street or whatever, who does not follow the lord can't ever follow the lord. Your thinking Calvin says that, but he does not say that.

There are many unrepentant people who will in fact repent and follow God. But, again, we don't know who they are. However, they need to know who we are, and how will they know us? ...by our "what"?

 

[Danus]

Danus – you appear to have a good understanding of what Holy Writ teaches but you appear more than a little deficient on exactly what Calvinism presents. I asked you a question back on the first page of this thread. If you can please answer that question - and answer it correctly using Calvin’s concepts you can see why your statement above may be incorrect.

One more time regarding the five-points – do you preach “repent or perish” to the lost? If you do, why do you preach it when Calvinism teaches that the non-elect cannot repent and the elect cannot perish? It is a dilemma that all five-point Calvinist trip over.

Are you a five-point Calvinist? Do you affirm the Canons of the Synod of Dordt? Or do you need to do more research regarding exactly what it is you affirm? Maybe you are not a Calvinist

OK, I'll give you a straight up answer. NO, I do not give that message to the lost.

I know some lost. I am friends with. The lost Don't even know they are lost. Parrish dose not register with them. they will laugh at you.

One of the ways I know this is because I was once one of them. In fact, I never knew how lost I was until a few years after I was born again.

I teach the love of Christ. It was the love of Christ that touched me, the allowed me to understand what God was all about for me. It is irresistible.

You've heard the term, love conquers all. That is so true. There is nothing more powerful than love, and our world has messed up that term love. They equate it to a day in February. They say things like, "I love ice cream, or fast cars," But love is so much more than that.

I'm sure you know this chapter
1 Corinthians 13

1 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

The lost don't need to hear that God loves them and he's going to condemn them for all eternity unless they do and be as he says. Go preach that all you want and people will turn away from you, but help someone in need, minister to those in prison, do something nice for someone, something out of human character, something that transcends and reaches into someone heart. love those who hate you. When we preach like that we reach others as Christ did.

We are to reflect the Love of Christ. We are not to condemn the lost. They are already condemned. We might judge them to analyze them, to see their heart, but we all need to know that we where once condemned as well, but for the love of Christ we are saved, not by anything we did. We are to reflect that same love to the lost.

Do you love the lost? Are you afraid of them? If our only way to the lost is to condemn them and tell them they are the ones going to hell, then who are we to them, but what Paul says; Nothing. The message of Christ stops right there to the lost when we preach out of fear and piousness, and many who preach this way are simply lost themselves.

 

[zeke]

The non-elect are the un-repentant. Some people repent in their life and some do not. This is a factual reality of all those who live and then die.

Right now there are people who have not repented and will never repent. they will die that way. They are the non-elect. We don't know, nor can we tell who those people are, but God does know.

Your argument is that the guy down your street or whatever, who does not follow the lord can't ever follow the lord. Your thinking Calvin says that, but he does not say that.

There are many unrepentant people who will in fact repent and follow God. But, again, we don't know who they are. However, they need to know who we are, and how will they know us? ...by our "what"?

Again - you do not know your Calvinism. Calvinism erroneously states that God ordained - before the foundation of the world - that many folks (the non-elect) will not be afforded the opportunity to repent and be saved - they are condemned before they are ever born and a few folks (the elect) cannot commit any sin that will ever cause them to perish.

That error runs counter to the biblical truth that it is God's desire that ALL will come to repentance. It runs counter to the gospel call to mankind that..."whosoever will may come"...

And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
(Rev 22:17 NKJV)​

The dogma of limited atonement/limited grace is not found in Holy Writ and you need to reject it. When Jesus died on the Cross his death was efficacious for "all of mankind" - the Spirit and Bride say to all mankind from all nations come...let whoever desires take the water of life freely. Go...teach..all the nations...

And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
(Mat 28:18-20 NKJV)​

 

[Danus]

But you may have answered incorrectly in your hast - yes? Is it really your position that man is not required to "work the works of God"? Is man required to believe that God is who He claims to be - believe via faith that Jesus is the Christ - the Son of God? Think before before you answer this time and search the Book a little closer.

Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
(Joh 6:28-29)​

Have you worked the works of God? Have you "believed in Him whom He sent"? Was it required or optional that you believe? Did you choose to believe that Jesus is the Christ - God's only begotten Son - or were you programmed from the foundation of the world to believe - and thus you had no choice?

obligation - requirement to take some course of action​

You are missing the mark again my friend. We are obligated to work the works of God. Read the Book. No one will be saved without obedience to the gospel of Christ – “that form of doctrine to which you were deliveredâ€. We either submit to God via “obedience leading to righteousness†or we remain “slaves to sin†that results in separation from God and spiritual death. Which option did you choose via free-will? Or have you never “obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered"? Are you sure you are not obligated to submit to God via obedience? Does your theology make such obedience an option - only if you can find the time?

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
(Rom 6:16-18)​

As noted earlier - the non-biblical doctrine of salvation via works of merit is an egregious error.

I'll clarify a little more.

There are things God wants us to do clearly. I suppose we could call them works. We either do them because it is a part of who we are, or we do them because we think God wants us to.

The will of God works in the elect by default. It is not something that is a chore or an obligation of that saved man, but an ingrained characteristic of his new nature.

There are times when a saved man is weak in his salvation. The will of man does not just leave when he is saved, but it is subservient to God's will. Your free will needs to surrender to be saved. There is not room for your will and God's to both operate. This is the message Calvin has in regards to free will, however, this is not how Calvin would say it. these are my own words, and neither I or Calvin discovered this. This is a wider understanding of the gospel.

Jesus Illustrated as is recorded in John 6: 35-40

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.â€

Christ is flatly saying that not all that come to him will believe, but only the ones that the father sends.

The will of God is not done through, or by, the will of man. The work of God is of God, not of man. We are changed by God for God. This is then not an obligation, but a privilege.

 

[zeke]

The lost don't need to hear that God loves them and he's going to condemn them for all eternity unless they do and be as he says. Go preach that all you want and people will turn away from you, but help someone in need, minister to those in prison, do something nice for someone, something out of human character, something that transcends and reaches into someone heart. love those who hate you. When we preach like that we reach others as Christ did.

You are quite mistaken - the lost do need too hear the good new that God loves them - faith comes by hearing the word of God. And again, with your Calvinistic blinders on why show the lost the love of Christ when the dogma of Calvinism teaches that the non-elect can’t repent and the elect can’t perish?

 

[zeke]

I'll clarify a little more.

In you 'clarification' are you agreeing with me that no one will be saved without obedience to the gospel of Christ – “that form of doctrine to which you were delivered� Do we agree that one either freely submits to God via “obedience leading to righteousness†or one remains a “slaves to sin†that results in separation from God and spiritual death? Do we agree that the gospel call is given to ALL of mankind? Do we agree that the Spirit and Bride say to all mankind from all nations come...let whoever desires take the water of life freely?

Do you really think God condemns the majority of mankind to hell before they are ever born - before they are afforded the opportunity to hear the good news? When Jesus died on the Cross was His death efficacious for "all of mankind"? Jesus was not a Calvinist.

 

[Danus]

Again - you do not know your Calvinism. Calvinism erroneously states that God ordained - before the foundation of the world - that many folks (the non-elect) will not be afforded the opportunity to repent and be saved - they are condemned before they are ever born and a few folks (the elect) cannot commit any sin that will ever cause them to perish.

Yes. That is true. The non-elect are the unrepentant. They will die in that state. They existed then, and now, and are yet to come. God knows them, you and I do not.

Christ himself affirms this with this little parable.

Matthew 22:10-14

10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.

13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.â€

This statement is the conclusion to the Parable of the Wedding Feast. Jesus spoke this parable to show what the kingdom of heaven will be like when the end of the age comes. In the parable, the king sends his servants out to gather the wedding guests to the wedding feast. But those invited refused to come, some because they were too busy with their own worldly pursuits and some because they were positively hostile toward the king. So the king commands his servants to go out and invite anyone they find, and many come and fill the wedding hall. But the king sees one man without wedding clothes, and he sends him away. Jesus concludes by saying that many are called/invited to the kingdom, but only those who have been “chosen†and have received Christ will come. Those who try to come without the covering of the blood of Christ for their sins are inadequately clothed and will be sent into “outer darkness,†(v. 13) i.e., hell.

Many people hear the call of God which comes through His revelation of Himself through two things—the creation and the conscience within us. But only the "few" will respond because they are the ones who are truly hearing. Jesus said many times, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear†(Matthew 11:15; Mark 4:9; Luke 8:8; 14:35). The point is that everyone has ears, but only a few are listening and responding. Not everyone who hears the gospel receives it but only the "few" who have ears to hear. The "many" hear, but there is no interest or there is outright antagonism toward God. Many are called or invited into the kingdom, but none are able to come on their own. God must draw the hearts of those who come; otherwise they will not (John 6:44).

Second Corinthians 5:17 says, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come.†God creates life, grants repentance and gives faith. Man is totally unable by himself to do these things which are necessary to enter the kingdom of heaven. Ephesians 1:4-6: “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.†Salvation is by God’s will and pleasure for His glory. John 6:37-39, 44-45“All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day…No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.â€

So, all of God’s “chosen†will be saved without exception; they will hear and respond because they have spiritual ears to hear the truth. God’s power makes this certain. Romans 8:28-30: “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew (loved) he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.â€

How do we know if we are among the few that have ears to hear? By responding to the call. Assurance of this certain call, this chosen call, is from the Holy Spirit. Consider Philippians 1:6; which says, “Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.†“Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose†(Philippians 2:12-13.) If we listen with our spiritual ears and respond to the invitation, there will be fear and trembling in our souls as we recognize that it was God’s work in us that caused our salvation.

Does this bother you? Is this upsetting to you?

 

[zeke]

Yes. That is true. The non-elect are the unrepentant. They will die in that state.

Your Calvinistic dogma that presents a God who ordained that most of mankind will not be afforded the opportunity to hear the gospel message, repent and be saved is an egregious error that should be rejected by all Christians.

Christ himself affirms this with this little parable.

Matthew 22:10-14

Matthew 22 does not teach the error of Calvinism my friend - only in your mind. You present nothing that proves your error. The Bible does not contradict itself and the biblical truth remains true - it is God's desire that ALL will come to repentance - the gospel call is to ALL mankind..."whosoever will may come"...

Does this bother you? Is this upsetting to you?

It bothers me that Calvinism has completely and maybe irreversibly blinded your mind to the truth taught in Holy Writ. Sad.

 

[Danus]

Ok, well I presented the words of Christ. I quoted the bible, not John Calvin.

The fact is that if God wanted to save all he could, but he does not not. I understand this is upsetting to you. It's difficult for many and this is why Calvin is so vilified. However, it is not a message without hope.

One way you might reconcile this is to place the emphasis on man. This is the natural logical thing for us to do. It is man's responsibility to come to Christ, and I dare say I believe that man does bare some of that at some point, but the bible makes it clear that it is the work of God and not of man that saves. God clearly chooses upon whom he will have mercy.

Romans 9:15-18
15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Exodus 33:19
19 And the LORD said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

God is in charge. he is sovereign, and all is by divine providence. If you don't like that then take it up with God. Calvin is only pointing it out bluntly and honestly.

Calvinism is the theological system associated with the Reformer John Calvin that emphasizes the rule of God over all things as reflected in its understanding of Scripture, God, humanity, salvation, and the church. In popular vernacular, Calvinism often refers to the Five Points of Calvinistic doctrine regarding salvation, which make up the acrostic TULIP. In its broader sense, Calvinism is associated with Reformed theology. Sometimes Calvinism is referred to by other names such as "Augustinianism" because Calvin followed Augustine (A.D. 354–430) in many areas of predestination and the sovereignty of God.

In a broad sense, Calvinism can be virtually synonymous with "Reformed Protestantism" or Reformed theology, encompassing the whole body of doctrine taught by Reformed churches and represented in various Reformed Confessions such as the Belgic Confession of Faith 1561, and the Westminster Confession of Faith 1647.

The principle of Calvin's system can be expressed by the term Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone). This principle of the Reformation demonstrates the conviction that the Bible is the Word of God and therefore the final authority in belief and practice. A common mistake is made when Sola Scriptura is understood as the Bible "alone." Calvin and the Reformers, believed strongly in church tradition, Calvin consistently and often cites the early church fathers. However, Scripture had the final authority and tradition was given a subordinate role. The authority of Scripture was not through rational argumentation or proofs, but through the witness of the Holy Spirit.

Calvinism affirms and confesses the historic doctrine of the Trinity: God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God is perfect in all his attributes, and is self-sufficient. Therefore, God is not subject to time or other beings, nor is he reducible to matter or spatial categories available to human reasoning or examination. God is also mysterious, or hidden, except as he chooses to reveal himself to men, which He has done in the Scriptures.

The Calvinist doctrine of salvation is summarized in what is commonly called the Five Points of Calvinism, or the Doctrines of Grace, known by the acronym, or acoustic, TULIP. These five points are a summary of the Canons of Dort which in turn was the judgment of the Synod of Dort (1618–1619) against related Arminian teaching. These five points are not intended to be a comprehensive summary of Calvinism or Reformed doctrine, but an exposition of the sovereignty of God in salvation -- arranged to address the particular points in dispute raised by the Arminians of that day.

Zeke, with all due respect to you, I don't think you are fully aware of what exactly you are arguing. My advice to you is to learn more about John Calvin and weigh that with scripture, but also check out Arminianism ....a school of theology based on the teachings of Dutch theologian Jacob Arminius, for whom it is named.

It is most prominent in the Methodist movement, which is why I used John Wesley when we started this. It's found in various other evangelical circles today. It stands in contrast to Calvinism, with which it has a long history of debate. Arminians as well as Calvinists appeal to various Scriptures and the early church fathers to support their respective views, however the differences remain — particularly as related to the sovereignty of God in salvation and the ideas of election and predestination.

Lastly look up Pelagianism. This is interesting, and views humanity as basically good and morally unaffected by the Fall. It denies the imputation of Adam's sin, original sin, total depravity, and substitutionary atonement. There is one on this thread who holds to this to some point, believing that it is man's duty and ability to hold the law despite the fact that scripture clearly says none have and none can except for Jesus Christ.

It simultaneously views man as fundamentally good and in possession of libertarian free will. With regards to salvation, it teaches that man has the ability in and of himself (apart from divine aid) to obey God and earn eternal salvation. Pelagianism is overwhelmingly incompatible with the Bible and was historically opposed by Augustine (354-430), Bishop of Hippo, leading to its condemnation as a heresy at Council of Carthage in 418 A.D. These condemnations were summarily ratified at the Council of Ephesus (A.D. 431).

From what I can tell your views fall somewhere within Pelagianism and Arminianism. Would Calvin say Pelagianist and Arminians, are not saved? No he would not, but the other two would most likely have burned Calvin at the steak, with the help of the RCC if they could gotten their hands on him. That's just my opinion. Then the RCC would have burned the other two as well. ...again my own thoughts.

In any case, speaking of burn, the dew on my grass is about burned off so I have to do a little yard work. I'll catch you later.

 

[zeke]

The fact is that if God wanted to save all he could, but he does not not. I understand this is upsetting to you. It's difficult for many and this is why Calvin is so vilified. However, it is not a message without hope.

Again – the only thing ‘upsetting’ is your failure to understand what God has revealed and you continue to misunderstand His word – “there is no respect of persons" with God and “God our Savior…desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”. The gospel call is to “whoever desires to take the water of life freely”. You have never addressed these truths - why? How do you reconcile truth with your Calvinistic error? It can't be done - can it?

Your dogma of limited atonement/limited grace is not found in Holy Writ and you need to reject it. When Jesus died on the Cross his death was efficacious for "all of mankind”. Do you also reject this biblical truth? How many truths must you reject before you realize your error? Are you afraid of where the truth leads?

Zeke, with all due respect to you, I don't think you are fully aware of what exactly you are arguing. My advice to you is to learn more about John Calvin and weigh that with scripture, but also check out Arminianism ....a school of theology based on the teachings of Dutch theologian Jacob Arminius, for whom it is named.

My friend – I know enough about Calvinism to know that it should be rejected by all Christians and I am not concerned with what Arminianism teaches. I am concerned with what Jesus Christ teaches and I can assure you – Jesus is not a Calvinist. You need to re-think your error and reject it. You are trying to make this a debate between Calvinism and Arminianism but it is not - it is a debate between Calvinism and the gospel of Jesus Christ and Calvinism has already lost - long ago.

You also didn't answer my questions. Can you? One more time - in your earlier 'clarification' are you agreeing with me that no one will be saved without obedience to the gospel of Christ – “that form of doctrine to which you were delivered”? Do we agree that one either freely submits to God via “obedience leading to righteousness” or one remains a “slaves to sin” that results in separation from God and spiritual death? Do we agree that the gospel call is given to ALL of mankind? Do we agree that the Spirit and Bride say to all mankind from all nations...come...let whoever desires take the water of life freely?

 

[Hitch]

Where it teaches the error that the non-elect can’t repent and the elect can’t perish. You understand that concept - right?

So in fact Calvin never speaks of force at all its just something you made up

You may be confused - Robert Shank (Baptist) correctly sums up Calvinism as the "strait jacket of an antecedent decree of positive unconditional election and reprobation, while insisting that they are ‘free’"...

“There is nothing about God’s gift of believers to be the heritage of the Son who died for them which somehow transforms the Gospel’s ‘whosoever will’ into a ‘whosoever must’ and a ‘most of you shan’t.’ There is nothing about it which binds men in the strait jacket of an antecedent decree of positive unconditional election and reprobation, while insisting that they are ‘free’â (Life in the Son)​

yawn

 

[Hitch]

Is there a specific verse you refer to with 'whosoever will' ?

 

[zeke]

Is there a specific verse you refer to with 'whosoever will' ?

And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
(Rev 22:17 NKJV)​

The Spirit and the Lord's church say come and partake of all spritiual blessing that are found "in Christ' - come and be saved ALL 'whoso ever will'. Let me know if you need any help processing that truth.