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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
"The Many Errors of Calvinism" -
- Thread starter Danus
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jasoncran
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i wasnt going to bother but i will, how is it possible for peter to say that the false prophets he speaks of knew the lord if they never did and if we take it the calvinist and most churches way then its best that once we tell the sinner and he says no then never ever mention it again. as when they deny him they are worse off then before. that makes no sense. though that does happen.
we all need to stop looking through are preconcieved lenses and read what the bible says and then change to that. often the church is off one some areas. some churches do teach that the ot is irrelavent and not to be read and doesnt apply!others teach the law and so forth. so which is correct?!
we all need to stop looking through are preconcieved lenses and read what the bible says and then change to that. often the church is off one some areas. some churches do teach that the ot is irrelavent and not to be read and doesnt apply!others teach the law and so forth. so which is correct?!
zeke
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- Jan 29, 2012
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The RCC error of "works" does not negate our obligation to "work the works of God". Would you agree?
Danus
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Calvin never said God makes robots or forces anyone to do anything. You put that into your own understanding of Calvin.
Conceptually the bible says man is fallen and in his fallen nature he is condemned. God offers the way out, not man.
IN the OT all man had to do was obey. Did he? NO.
When Christ came, all man had to do was accept him. Did he? NO
God has been rejected over and over and over by man. Look around you. Man must be converted, but this conversion does not happen on his own, by his own power, but by God.
John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."
Does man bore himself a new? or Does God? Calvin says God. You say you do it yourself.
John 14:6 says, Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Your version of this scripture would say; Man kind answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me, by my own willingness to do so.
But Jesus also says in John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." It could also have been written, "Any man can come to me IF, the father draws him." and mean the same thing. God is in charge, God picks, not you.
We have plenty of worldly evidence to back this up. Billions perhaps have all heard the word and have not come. If faith just comes through hearing only, then where are all the Christians? Many have heard, but unless they have been DRAWN by God, then the Gospel falls on deaf ears.
This is going to seem mean, but there are tons of people calling themselves Christians and saying they have a desire for God and are Christians because they choose to be, however God does not recognize them one bit. They build ministries and write books and preach the gospel, or some perverted similarly of it, yet in their hearts they are not part of the kingdom. Gods will does not reside in them, but their own rotten will. They have not surrendered to God one bit.
Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Again in Luke 13:25-27 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’ “But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
Following Christ requires a conversion. A re-birth into the kingdom of God, and that is done by God, not man.
People don't like to hear this because they want their cake and eat it to. Or should I say they want their own will and the blessings of God's will on them. Can't have it both.
- Dec 11, 2010
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When someone does something nice for me I humbly reply with a "Thank you." Why? Not because it is expected. Not because it is my duty. I reply with my thank you because I appreciate what they did and I want them to know it.
Jesus Christ died so that I may live. I do works of God not because it is expected. Not because it is my duty after all then all I have done was my duty. I reply to the gift of Jesus Christ with my works of God because I have accepted Him as my Lord and savior and very much appreciate what He has done for me and I desire to express that appreciation by living a life worthy of that gift.
Jesus Christ died so that I may live. I do works of God not because it is expected. Not because it is my duty after all then all I have done was my duty. I reply to the gift of Jesus Christ with my works of God because I have accepted Him as my Lord and savior and very much appreciate what He has done for me and I desire to express that appreciation by living a life worthy of that gift.
jasoncran
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ah to put it bluntly the gentilian modern church ignorance of the torah. the torah was meant and is used to condemn thee and point you to the YHWH then and it does now for some. if that isnt the truth they why the did the puritans based their laws on the torah?
in the torah (numbers) god says that caleb shall inherit canaan for he is that different spirit and in genesis it says that Noah found grace and that abraham believe it rightousness was imputed upon him.
that wasnt a work based salvation then it was a rule of law as god gave commands to isreal to be holy and he does that still with us. what commands are we to obey as christians?
love on another? the first two commandments of the ten commandments,dont eat blood, dont eat animals sacrificed to idols. (the seven noahide laws)
in the torah (numbers) god says that caleb shall inherit canaan for he is that different spirit and in genesis it says that Noah found grace and that abraham believe it rightousness was imputed upon him.
that wasnt a work based salvation then it was a rule of law as god gave commands to isreal to be holy and he does that still with us. what commands are we to obey as christians?
love on another? the first two commandments of the ten commandments,dont eat blood, dont eat animals sacrificed to idols. (the seven noahide laws)
Danus
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Obligated? Your Obligated to do works? NO. God does not need your obligation to him. He requires all, but man's rotten will does not allow God to have all. It's in the way. To them God is a chore and a duty and an obligation.
When the gospel is a burden, I would agree. When it is a chore and an extra duty one does out of Obligation, then sure. But when the gospel is a privilege, then no. For those converted by God by his perfect Love and Grace to them, they realize and see what a Glory it is to serve the lord in his will. What an absolute privilege.
jasoncran
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so jesus shouldnt expect fruits? do you not assume that when your wife says i do that she will will demonstrate that love by being your wife and following you in submission and so forth?
why then did jesus say repent and return to thy first works? what was that to mean if there wasnt something they had to do. works after the cross means not that we earned it but that we do it because we beleive that he did die and its evidence of the fact that we did REPENT. SO GOD SHOULD SEE SOMETHING!
do we not hold each other accountable if we say that im saved and not see works of a changed heart?i do.if a man says yea lord im yours and doesnt go to church, love god then was his conversion ever real? NO
why then did jesus say repent and return to thy first works? what was that to mean if there wasnt something they had to do. works after the cross means not that we earned it but that we do it because we beleive that he did die and its evidence of the fact that we did REPENT. SO GOD SHOULD SEE SOMETHING!
do we not hold each other accountable if we say that im saved and not see works of a changed heart?i do.if a man says yea lord im yours and doesnt go to church, love god then was his conversion ever real? NO
jasoncran
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to clarify what i mean. the rcc teaches that if im so holy in deed that my righteouness can be imputed by the pope or bishop or priest on a saint in purgatory. that isnt in anywise biblical. and many a lay catholics dont know the difference tween working for salvation or works as evidence OF SALVATION! IM the later the catholics for the most part are the former.
- Dec 11, 2010
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A fair question but misplaced in my opinion. I am unable, except by the power of the Holy Spirit, to even believe and it is that same power that makes it possible for me to respond to Christ's love. If I am not doing the works of God, it is becasue my faith is weak and misplaced and I deceive myself. Once I have been saved I am a new person and that new person comes with a totally different outlook.
Thank God that none of us are to rely on our works for our salvation in whole or even in part for if we do there is not one man, woman, or child that has ever lived or ever will live, save for one - the Christ, Jesus that will find a place in heaven. Thank God for Jesus Christ!
I didn't realize you answered but no problem.
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Danus
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Zeke. you are misusing Old Testament scripture. Ezekiel 18 : 26 and thinking this is connected to the new covenant in the same way.
No one ever kept the law, ever, except Christ who fulfilled the law. It is his perfection that is imputed to those whom God chooses and they can not walk away from it. They are changed and made new.
In other words, Jesus obeyed for you if you are indeed one of the pre-chosen robots.
If you are not one of elect then it is to bad for you because you were created as a sinning robot who cannot do anything else. It will be perdition for you.
H
Hitch
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Exactly where does Calvin say God forces men to obey ?
Is there a specific verse you refer to with 'whosoever will' ?
Exactly where does Calvin say anything about a strait jacket ?
Mike
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- Mar 13, 2010
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Let me ask this... Within the keeping of Calvin's teaching, what happens to the elect who never come to accept Christ. You might say there is no such thing, but I have a twist that I posed to a friend at work who holds to this doctrine.
He also disagreed with me when I said I believe it's possible for those in certain corners of the earth where the Gospel hasn't been preached and haven't heard the Gospel to be saved. (I believe it is possible if one accepts the limited revelation Given to them, even if it's only that there must be a Creator.) I asked him about young children who cannot grasp the Gospel. In either case, this presents the circumstance where the person hasn't accepted Christ. Most Christians will hold that a child won't have the accountability necessary to be held to accepting Christ. But aren't those who hold to Calvinism creating a paradox? Are there regions of the world where none of the elect are born into? What about their accountability?
I'm presenting this as an honest question, because I want to know what you'd have to say.
He also disagreed with me when I said I believe it's possible for those in certain corners of the earth where the Gospel hasn't been preached and haven't heard the Gospel to be saved. (I believe it is possible if one accepts the limited revelation Given to them, even if it's only that there must be a Creator.) I asked him about young children who cannot grasp the Gospel. In either case, this presents the circumstance where the person hasn't accepted Christ. Most Christians will hold that a child won't have the accountability necessary to be held to accepting Christ. But aren't those who hold to Calvinism creating a paradox? Are there regions of the world where none of the elect are born into? What about their accountability?
I'm presenting this as an honest question, because I want to know what you'd have to say.
zeke
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- Jan 29, 2012
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Danus – you appear to have a good understanding of what Holy Writ teaches but you appear more than a little deficient on exactly what Calvinism presents. I asked you a question back on the first page of this thread. If you can please answer that question - and answer it correctly using Calvin’s concepts you can see why your statement above may be incorrect.
One more time regarding the five-points – do you preach “repent or perish†to the lost? If you do, why do you preach it when Calvinism teaches that the non-elect cannot repent and the elect cannot perish? It is a dilemma that all five-point Calvinist trip over.
Are you a five-point Calvinist? Do you affirm the Canons of the Synod of Dordt? Or do you need to do more research regarding exactly what it is you affirm? Maybe you are not a Calvinist
H
Hitch
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Boettner on this subject:
11. INFANT SALVATION
Most Calvinistic theologians have held that those who die in infancy are saved. The Scriptures seem to teach plainly enough that the children of believers are saved; but they are silent or practically so in regard to those of the heathens. The Westminster Confession does not pass judgment on the children of heathens who die before coming to years of accountability. Where the Scriptures are silent, the Confession, too, preserves silence. Our outstanding theologians, however, mindful of the fact that God's "tender mercies are over all His works," and depending on His mercy widened as broadly as possible, have entertained a charitable hope that since these infants have never committed any actual sin themselves, their inherited sin would be pardoned and they would be saved on wholly evangelical principles.
Such, for instance, was the position held by Charles Hodge, W. G. T. Shedd, and B. B. Warfield. Concerning those who die in infancy, Dr. Warfield says: "Their destiny is determined irrespective of their choice, by an unconditional decree of God, suspended for its execution on no act
144 THE REFORMED DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION
of their own; and their salvation is wrought by an unconditional application of the grace of Christ to their souls, through the immediate and irresistible operation of the Holy Spirit prior to and apart from any action of their own proper wills . . . And if death in infancy does depend on God's providence, it is assuredly God in His providence who selects this vast multitude to be made participants of His unconditional salvation . . . This is but to say that they are unconditionally predestinated to salvation from the foundation of the world. If only a single infant dying in irresponsible infancy be saved, the whole Arminian principle is traversed. If all infants dying such are saved, not only the majority of the saved, but doubtless the majority of the human race hitherto, have entered into life by a non-Arminian pathway.''1
Certainly there is nothing in the Calvinistic system which would prevent us from believing this; and until it is proven that God could not predestinate to eternal life all those whom He is pleased to call in infancy we may be permitted to hold this view.
Calvinists, of course, hold that the doctrine of original sin applies to infants as well as to adults. Like all other sons of Adam, infants are truly culpable because of race sin and might be justly punished for it. Their "salvation" is real. It is possible only through the grace of Christ and is as truly unmerited as is that of adults. Instead of minimizing the demerit and punishment due to them for original sin, Calvinism magnifies the mercy of God in their salvation. Their salvation means something, for it is the deliverance of guilty souls from eternal woe. And it is costly, for it was paid for by the suffering of Christ on the cross. Those who take the other view of original sin, namely, that it is not properly sin and does not deserve eternal punishment, make the evil from which infants are "saved" to be very small, and consequently the love and gratitude which they owe to God to be small also.
The doctrine of infant salvation finds a logical place in the Calvinistic system; for the redemption of the soul is thus infallibly determined irrespective of any faith, repen-
__________
1. Two Studies in the History of Doctrine, p. 230.
UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION 145
tance, or good works, whether actual or foreseen. It does not, however, find a logical place in Arminianism or any other system. Furthermore, it would seem that a system such as Arminianism, which suspends salvation on a personal act of rational choice, would logically demand that those dying in infancy must either be given another period of probation after death, in order that their destiny may be fixed, or that they must be annihilated.
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