The Mystery of Lawlessness.

[Ryan]

We'll anyone that can read can refute your claim here.

Change in the priesthood and also a change in the law.

The obsolete old covenant is no longer valid, as the blood of animals can not remove sins.

JLB

John 4:22
You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

Romans 10:19
But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation, By a nation without understanding will I anger you.”

Romans 11:11
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

Romans 11:14
if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

How can you seriously provoke a Jew to jealousy when you are accusing them of ushering in the antichrist? How can you possibly witness to a Jew telling them Jesus did away with a Law of Moses? The evangelism I have seen Christians trying to witness to Jews and Rabbi's is painfully pathetic as the Jews well versed in the scriptures, run circles around the evangelists explaining why Jesus could not be the Messiah because most of Christianity teaches Jesus did away with the Law of Moses. Not a good way to provoke a Jew to jealousy.

 

[Ryan]

Further though JLB.

Deuteronomy 18:18-21
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
18 I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19 It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him. 20 But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 You may say in your heart, ‘How will we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’

Deuteronomy 4:2
You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32
“Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it.

For Israel to have recognized who was a true prophet of Israel, they could not add nor take away from the commandments of God. So if Jeremiah was prophecying God was going to take away the Law of Moses and add a new code of conduct so to speak, they would of had to of rejected him as being a false prophet according to the Bible.

 

[Deborah13]

John 4:22
You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

Romans 10:19
But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation, By a nation without understanding will I anger you.”

Romans 11:11
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

Romans 11:14
if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

How can you seriously provoke a Jew to jealousy when you are accusing them of ushering in the antichrist? How can you possibly witness to a Jew telling them Jesus did away with a Law of Moses? The evangelism I have seen Christians trying to witness to Jews and Rabbi's is painfully pathetic as the Jews well versed in the scriptures, run circles around the evangelists explaining why Jesus could not be the Messiah because most of Christianity teaches Jesus did away with the Law of Moses. Not a good way to provoke a Jew to jealousy.

Hi Ryan, question....Do you have any suggestions as to how Christians should provoke jealousy?

 

[ezrider]

I believe that the "mystery of lawlessness", spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 is a system that today is very important to identify and reject.

Chopper, first I must ask why you feel this system must be identified, and then rejected? Why would you spend your time looking for something if your intent is to reject it? That logic just doesn't seem like common sense to me. What is it that drives our curiosity and our impulses to search after the things of antichrist instead of the things of Christ. JLB quoted the words of Jesus from a passage in Mat 24 early on in this thread that said because of iniquity, or lawlessness depending on your translation, the love of many shall wax cold. But it is real important to hear what Jesus continued to say: And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. How can one be a witness of the kingdom, and a witness for Christ when they find themselves trying to identify antichrist? You shall Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, and with all your soul; there is no room for seeking antichrist in this. So what do you think is more important: being a witness of the antichrist or a witness for Christ?

 

[Ryan]

Hi Ryan, question....Do you have any suggestions as to how Christians should provoke jealousy?

Learn the NT through OT lenses and preach the Jewish Yeshua, not the Christian Jesus.

 

[JLB]

Chopper, first I must ask why you feel this system must be identified, and then rejected? Why would you spend your time looking for something if your intent is to reject it? That logic just doesn't seem like common sense to me. What is it that drives our curiosity and our impulses to search after the things of antichrist instead of the things of Christ. JLB quoted the words of Jesus from a passage in Mat 24 early on in this thread that said because of iniquity, or lawlessness depending on your translation, the love of many shall wax cold. But it is real important to hear what Jesus continued to say: And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. How can one be a witness of the kingdom, and a witness for Christ when they find themselves trying to identify antichrist? You shall Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, and with all your soul; there is no room for seeking antichrist in this. So what do you think is more important: being a witness of the antichrist or a witness for Christ?

If you will continue to read what Jesus said in Matthew 24, you will find the words, Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

We are to watch for the signs that He gave us.

We are to warn others of the approaching enemy.

We are to use these signs as a witness to the unsaved as well as the new believers that the prophecies of Jesus are coming to pass and to heed His words.

This is how the wise will turn many to righteousness, by being balanced and watchful.

This is the work of a watchman.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Learn the NT through OT lenses and preach the Jewish Yeshua, not the Christian Jesus.

I think I understand what you are saying. I think it would be very difficult for a Christian to do this. But I believe that God is raising up Jews who are accepting Jesus and they will teach other Jews.
I suppose if Christian had studied Jewish theology and Hebrew even for many years, they would know how to prove to them that there is only one Messiah spoken of in the OT, not two. And that the Messiah is the Son of God, God come in the flesh.
But somehow I don't think that could be what Paul was talking about.

 

[Ryan]

I think I understand what you are saying. I think it would be very difficult for a Christian to do this. But I believe that God is raising up Jews who are accepting Jesus and they will teach other Jews.
I suppose if Christian had studied Jewish theology and Hebrew even for many years, they would know how to prove to them that there is only one Messiah spoken of in the OT, not two. And that the Messiah is the Son of God, God come in the flesh.
But somehow I don't think that could be what Paul was talking about.

Not so much that, it is more about beginning to learn the bible from the beginning instead of beginning in the middle. Most people I know start a book at the beginning instead of the middle. Even John goes back to the beginning of Genesis in chapter 1 verse 1. Youtube Dr. Michael Brown debate Rabbi Schmuley Boteach. Very enlightening how to prove to a Jew the Jewish Messiah.

 

[Ryan]

If you will continue to read what Jesus said in Matthew 24, you will find the words, Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

We are to watch for the signs that He gave us.

We are to warn others of the approaching enemy.

We are to use these signs as a witness to the unsaved as well as the new believers that the prophecies of Jesus are coming to pass and to heed His words.

This is how the wise will turn many to righteousness, by being balanced and watchful.

This is the work of a watchman.


JLB

There must be a God if we are agreeing on something.

 

[jasoncran]

the early church was called Christian. was that "jesus" some how different then the Hebrew moshiac that has come? the goy then didn't speak Hebrew but whatever tounge they were born into and also it was common for all to know greek.the lxx where the lineage of jesus by luke is from a greek translation.

 

[Deborah13]

the early church was called Christian. was that "jesus" some how different then the Hebrew moshiac that has come? the goy then didn't speak Hebrew but whatever tounge they were born into and also it was common for all to know greek.the lxx where the lineage of jesus by luke is from a greek translation.

Thanks Jason, I'd forgotten the LXX was translated by the Jews into the Greek, I think for Greek speaking Jews.

 

[jasoncran]

no it was for the greeks in the ptolmeiac dynasty. they didn't want to but were begged to do so.

 

[Chopper]

hillel is the grandpa of gammelel, hillel is the person who taught the law to the Pharisees who didn't understand the law. hillel was of such character that he would disagree he still would consider you a jew if you did the torah. theres a lot of grey areas that were hard to teach and discern. divorce being one of them. jesus sided with hillel with every thing but one thing.that was divorce. shimei was the other person who taugh the law. both men walked and talked together and loved each other. their students who became the Pharisees in jesus day would miss that nature and argue way to much. hillel also was into giving to the poor and being humble and very much like Abraham. the more one studies Abraham. you will see jesus.

Thank you for that info. I made a note of that so in the future, I'll know who they are.

 

[Chopper]

John 4:22
You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

Romans 10:19
But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation, By a nation without understanding will I anger you.”

Romans 11:11
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

Romans 11:14
if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

How can you seriously provoke a Jew to jealousy when you are accusing them of ushering in the antichrist? How can you possibly witness to a Jew telling them Jesus did away with a Law of Moses? The evangelism I have seen Christians trying to witness to Jews and Rabbi's is painfully pathetic as the Jews well versed in the scriptures, run circles around the evangelists explaining why Jesus could not be the Messiah because most of Christianity teaches Jesus did away with the Law of Moses. Not a good way to provoke a Jew to jealousy.

God bless you Ryan!! That is why I honor every Jewish person I meet, whether saved or not. As you have quoted Romans 10:19, I have you and other true Israelites for my Salvation....I was studying Romans 13 this morning, and Verse 8 jumped out at me, "Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the Law. (9) For the commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet, and any other commandment, are summed up in this word, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (10) love does no wrong to a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the Law". (ESV)

 

[Chopper]

Chopper, first I must ask why you feel this system must be identified, and then rejected? Why would you spend your time looking for something if your intent is to reject it? That logic just doesn't seem like common sense to me. What is it that drives our curiosity and our impulses to search after the things of antichrist instead of the things of Christ. JLB quoted the words of Jesus from a passage in Mat 24 early on in this thread that said because of iniquity, or lawlessness depending on your translation, the love of many shall wax cold. But it is real important to hear what Jesus continued to say: And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. How can one be a witness of the kingdom, and a witness for Christ when they find themselves trying to identify antichrist? You shall Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, and with all your soul; there is no room for seeking antichrist in this. So what do you think is more important: being a witness of the antichrist or a witness for Christ?

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough in my initial introduction to this thread my Brother. I have no interest in the, or any antichrist. The focus of this thread is; a world system of evil that Satan has set up to trap Christians, to weaken them through compromise. If you go back and read the origin of my thread, I think you will better understand. Paul said in verse 7 "the mystery of lawlessness is already at work". There is reference to the "man of lawlessness" but that is not my focus. My focus is his system of lawlessness that he set up long ago that Paul identifies as already at work.

I grew up in the late 40s and early 50s, and what I see now, in our world, is drastically different. Evil abounds much more now, than then. My intent was to identify this evil change and warn my Christian family in this forum to wake up! and not be caught. Threads have a way of bunny trails, I fear a concentration on the "Man" instead of the "system" is one of them.

 

[jasoncran]

I think this evil always was just that in America and the west it was underground and also different evils. churchs hated blacks in the name of the Lord, in the south, there has been some level of anti-semetiscm in America.hitler was loved by the American elitists. h.ford, m. sanger, and others.

 

[Chopper]

I think this evil always was just that in America and the west it was underground and also different evils. churchs hated blacks in the name of the Lord, in the south, there has been some level of anti-semetiscm in America.hitler was loved by the American elitists. h.ford, m. sanger, and others.

Thank you for reminding me! You are absolutely right! I grew up in the State of Maine, and we were sheltered from all of that. Radio was the only line of communication with the world that we had, and liberal stations only broadcasted what they wanted. We still have anti-semetiscm today. Perhaps even in Cf.net. It always surprises me when I hear of it amongst Christians. That is what I am trying to get accros in this thread. That is the mystery of lawlessness. In Western Massachusetts, we have an abundance of Black folk, and Latino folk who reside in Springfield and surrounding towns. They are very unpopular, and racial profiling is a hot issue.

Without thinking through, Christians will, before consulting the Lord, go to a bank and take out loans or credit cards and become servants to lenders. Scripture warns us to avoid being slaves to lenders, but will all too easily. The world system is an enemy to God, and we have to beware not to get caught up in it so easily.

 

[Deborah13]

I think this evil always was just that in America and the west it was underground and also different evils. churchs hated blacks in the name of the Lord, in the south, there has been some level of anti-semetiscm in America.hitler was loved by the American elitists. h.ford, m. sanger, and others.

I agree with you Jason. What I see is that the evils that have gone in this country and around the world, were hidden in dark places by a code of silence. Now they are being brought out into the light. There can be no healing or repentance and change without the light.
Because of the access that most people have now by satellite TV and the internet, it is in our faces and cannot be denied.

 

[reba]

Our relationship to the Lord is more important then our relationships to anyone anything else....

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

[Chopper]

Our relationship to the Lord is more important then our relationships to anyone anything else....

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Oh yes Reba, thank you for the reminder! Not only is lawlessness rampant in worldly places but Spiritually as well. When we consider all the cults out there, it blows my mind to think that there are so many twisted minds who pick on religion to sell their wares. Whenever I am faced with one of those cultists, I center our conversation on the Blood of Christ to put them on the defensive. Blood has to be perfect in order to remove sin, and they don't believe Jesus was God and therefore He does not have perfect blood. Usually I've got um. Oh, the mystery of lawlessness, it's everywhere. I think that's why we are told to "watch".