The MYTH of condemned men being the ELECT...

[RoadDebris]

So what was the Apostle Paul thinking when he told the Jailor to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and he would be saved.. in response to the most serious and important question ever asked.. ?

He told him the truth. The jailer obviously already believed or he wouldn't have asked the question. You believe...BAM...you're saved. But guess what, according to the Bible that belief is a gift from God, not an effect of man's choice.

OK, so I asked you to explain what Eph 1:13 means in the Greek and you can't do that either..

That salvation always comes through faith upon hearing the word.

 

[n2thelight]

Hey, if the other thread can go on and one... let's have a sister thread concerning the false premise that the other thread is based upon..

Many Christians have been taught that THEY are the elect of God.. and this might seem fairly obvious to the passive reader who might not have considered WHY a person (like a Christian) is referred to as the elect in scripture.. although upon close examination of the scriptures we can see that WE are not the elect of God but rather that the Lord Jesus Christ IS the elect of God and that we are the elect IN HIM..

That's the key here... IN HIM..

Christians are members of the BODY OF CHRIST.. old things are passed away and all things are become NEW IN CHRIST.. and because you're IN CHRIST, you are the elect, not because YOU ARE, but rather because HE IS.

All Christians are not of the elect......

 

[Eventide]

He told him the truth. The jailer obviously already believed or he wouldn't have asked the question. You believe...BAM...you're saved. But guess what, according to the Bible that belief is a gift from God, not an effect of man's choice.

The Calvinist twist is always a good laugh to listen to isn't it.. now the Jailor already believed...

And that's the basis for God choosing anyone to salvation.. by believing the truth.

That salvation always comes through faith upon hearing the word.

Yep, that's the model Paul preaches.. that we trust in Christ after hearing the gospel, and after we believe God seals us with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Eventide]

All Christians are not of the elect......

Who are the elect according to what you believe, and and why are they the elect..?

 

[savedbygrace57]

rd:

He told him the truth. The jailer obviously already believed or he wouldn't have asked the question.

Well, the Jailor had not yet heard the word of the Lord when he asked the question, that came after words Acts 16:

30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?


31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

Faith cometh by hearing the word of God. Now, I believe the Jailor was born again when he asked the question. And notice how its worded,

"what must I do to be saved " Not what must I do to get saved !

And Paul answered him in like fashion, Gave him a imperative and stated, believe on the Lord and thou shalt be saved, again not get saved. Both times saved is in the passive voice.

Now, how was he to believe on the Lord if he had not yet heard the Gospel ? So they spake unto him and his family the word of the Lord, that is they explained the Person and work of Jesus Christ to them, who He was, what He had accomplished, and for whom He accomplished it.

Now Paul taught that it was by the obedience of one, that many shall be made righteous Rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The obedience here is talking about Christ death on the cross Phil 2:


8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

I am sure paul preached to him the obedience of the cross, and the fruit or accomplishment of it, that many shall be made righteous, by His one act of obedience.

Now, If the Jailor believed, he would have believed that he had been made righteous by Christ obedience, the Spirit would have witnessed or testified to his spirit with the word of the Lord. Now if that be the case, his believing was not a conditioned he fulfilled to get saved, but an embracing of the fact he had been made righteous by Christ death of obedience, so his believing gave evidence of being in a saved or Justified state before God, Why ? Because of the obedience of one.. Hence believing is not a condition to get saved, but an evidence of having been saved or made righteous by Christ blood.

 

[Eventide]

What must i do to be saved ?

a) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved

b) Nothing

lol

 

[Eventide]

All Christians are not of the elect......

Care to explain..

Here's a good chance to exercise your signature quote (below) to see if what you have learned about election comes from man or the word of God..

When we come to ask ourselves, and say, "Where did I learn this?" "How did I get this?" "Who taught me this?" it is astonishing to find how much we have imbibed from man, and from tradition; and not directly and for ourselves, from the Word of God.

 

[RoadDebris]

And that's the basis for God choosing anyone to salvation.. by believing the truth.

No, the basis is God's sovereign choice. He chooses to gift us with the faith through which we receive grace.

Yep, that's the model Paul preaches.. that we trust in Christ after hearing the gospel, and after we believe God seals us with the Holy Spirit.

Paul rules out any action or intent on our part absolutely as the cause of our salvation in Ephesians and Romans, and that includes placing our trust. The cause of our salvation is strictly a matter of God's action, not our own, according to the Bible.

 

[Eventide]

No, the basis is God's sovereign choice. He chooses to gift us with the faith through which we receive grace.

Yes, we all know that Calvinists believe that God chose them unconditionally.. and that they didn't need to do anything.

The cause of our salvation is strictly a matter of God's action, not our own, according to the Bible.

I couldn't agree more.. although since you've been taught for so long that we cause our salvation.. then you'll most likely come back with some statement about how dishonest I am.. etc..

 

[RoadDebris]

Yes, we all know that Calvinists believe that God chose them unconditionally.. and that they didn't need to do anything.

By the grace of God, of course.

I couldn't agree more.. although since you've been taught for so long that we cause our salvation.. then you'll most likely come back with some statement about how dishonest I am.. etc..

Being that I've told you repeatedly that I don't believe you save yourself, your assertion that I do believe such a thing does appear to be dishonest. Maybe English as a second language is the real issue?

 

[Eventide]

By the grace of God, of course.

And while we were ALL saved by the grace of God, most of us still had to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved.. evidently this is not true for Calvinists.. they just wake up one day and presto, they're saved unconditionally.

Being that I've told you repeatedly that I don't believe you save yourself, your assertion that I do believe such a thing does appear to be dishonest. Maybe English as a second language is the real issue?

LOL.. yeah, as if you or any Calvinist has not told me that I've saved myself.. now that's funny..

 

[RoadDebris]

And while we were ALL saved by the grace of God, most of us still had to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved.. evidently this is not true for Calvinists.. they just wake up one day and presto, they're saved unconditionally.

Not according to the Bible. Paul rules out any action or intent by you as the cause of your salvation in Romans and Ephesians.

LOL.. yeah, as if you or any Calvinist has not told me that I've saved myself.. now that's funny..

Prove it. Post the quote where I say you successfully saved yourself. I do point out that you claim to have worked for your own salvation and that you deny having done any such thing all in the same breath, but that is not the same thing. People who are fluent in English generally don't have a problem discerning these simple facts.

 

[Eventide]

Not according to the Bible. Paul rules out any action or intent by you as the cause of your salvation in Romans and Ephesians.

I didn't say that I caused my salvation... you're the only one who says that and then you say that you don't say that.. lol..

Prove it. Post the quote where I say you successfully saved yourself. I do point out that you claim to have worked for your own salvation and that you deny having done any such thing all in the same breath, but that is not the same thing. People who are fluent in English generally don't have a problem discerning these simple facts.

Look at what you just said above.. "Paul rules out any action or intent by you as the cause of salvation"... and now you're going to tell me that you haven't said any such thing.. right.. ? LOL

 

[RoadDebris]

I didn't say that I caused my salvation... you're the only one who says that and then you say that you don't say that.. lol..

If you're now claiming that one doesn't have to repent by their own free will in order for their salvation to take place you are contradicting what you just said a few posts back.

Look at what you just said above.. "Paul rules out any action or intent by you as the cause of salvation"... and now you're going to tell me that you haven't said any such thing.. right.. ? LOL

Are you denying that the Holy Spirit, through Paul, says that works of man do not cause his salvation? Are you denying that works, as defined by the Holy Spirit, through Paul, is absolutely ruled out as the cause of salvation?

Again, you claim to have worked for your salvation. The Bible says otherwise.

 

[Eventide]

If you're now claiming that one doesn't have to repent by their own free will in order for their salvation to take place you are contradicting what you just said a few posts back.

No, these are simply more ridiculous claims by you.. that's all.

What must I do to be saved.. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..

Who seals a believer with the Holy Spirit after they hear the gospel and believe.. God..

It's that simple.. and yet for you it's nothing and God just one day choose you unconditionally.

Are you denying that the Holy Spirit, through Paul, says that works of man do not cause his salvation? Are you denying that works, as defined by the Holy Spirit, through Paul, is absolutely ruled out as the cause of salvation?

Again, you claim to have worked for your salvation. The Bible says otherwise.

Now (according to you) I am claiming that I have worked for my salvation..

Do you ever listen to yourself.. you make no sense at all.. I think you just like to argue for the sake of arguing..

 

[RoadDebris]

No, these are simply more ridiculous claims by you.. that's all.

That might make you feel better about what you choose to believe, but it's not in line with the actual state of affairs.

What must I do to be saved.. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..

Your false assumption leads you to make the Bible contradict itself. If people really could do something to cause their own salvation then Ephesians 2:8-9 would be a lie. Works can't be ruled out and ruled in at the same time in the same sense (Law of Contradiction).

Let God be true, and every man a liar. Rom. 3:4

Who seals a believer with the Holy Spirit after they hear the gospel and believe.. God..

God. And it's God who gifts the elect with their faith. Does everyone who hears the Gospel accept it? Obviously not. Only those who're gifted with faith from God accept Him.

It's that simple.. and yet for you it's nothing and God just one day choose you unconditionally.

There are no "days" in eternity. As to being chosen by God, that's what the Bible teaches. By His grace I accept what it says.

Now (according to you) I am claiming that I have worked for my salvation..

You're claiming your repentance caused God to seal you. That contradicts Romans 9 and Ephesians 2.

Do you ever listen to yourself.. you make no sense at all.. I think you just like to argue for the sake of arguing..

Yet another self-serving false assumption.

 

[Eventide]

Your false assumption leads you to make the Bible contradict itself. If people really could do something to cause their own salvation then Ephesians 2:8-9 would be a lie. Works can't be ruled out and ruled in at the same time in the same sense (Law of Contradiction).

Let God be true, and every man a liar. Rom. 3:4

The really really funny thing is that you're the only one who claims that others 'cause' their salvation.

Who seals a believer after they hear the gospel and believe.. God or Me..?

God. And it's God who gifts the elect with their faith. Does everyone who hears the Gospel accept it? Obviously not. Only those who're gifted with faith from God accept Him.

Thanks.. so we both agree that God is the cause of our salvation.. and there are plenty of reasons within the scriptures as to why many reject the love of the truth that they might be saved.. and God withholding faith from them is not one of them.

There are no "days" in eternity. As to being chosen by God, that's what the Bible teaches. By His grace I accept what it says.

Well, thanks for your opinion, but I'll stick with what my bible says plainly.. that God has chosen us to salvation NOT UNCONDITIONALLY, but through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.. the only reason that Calvinists believe that they were chosen unconditionally is because of their mis-interpretation of Romans 9.

You're claiming your repentance caused God to seal you. That contradicts Romans 9 and Ephesians 2.

This is what Paul preached... repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.. and that's the basis according to scripture for God choosing anyone to salvation.. 'believing the truth'.. just like Abraham.. he believed God and and it was counted to him as righteousness.

Unless of course one becomes a Calvinist.. then they're taught that they didn't need to do anything to be saved.. they just wake up one day and poof.. they're in Christ.. lol

 

[RoadDebris]

The really really funny thing is that you're the only one who claims that others 'cause' their salvation.

The really sad part is that no matter how many times I say no-one can cause their own salvation you falsely accuse me of saying the opposite. Your wilful disingenuousness doesn't add any credibility to your argument.

Who seals a believer after they hear the gospel and believe.. God or Me..?

Just answered that (scroll up). Maybe it's a short term memory thing?

Thanks.. so we both agree that God is the cause of our salvation..

Wilfully dishonest. You claim that your action causes God to seal you, making your works (i.e. ergon) the primary cause of your salvation. You claim God reacts to your decision. That is antithetical to biblical teaching.

Well, thanks for your opinion, but I'll stick with what my bible says plainly.. that God has chosen us to salvation NOT UNCONDITIONALLY, but through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.. the only reason that Calvinists believe that they were chosen unconditionally is because of their mis-interpretation of Romans 9.

Wilful mischaracterization of my position. It's not a matter of my subjective opinion. It's a matter of God's objective view as expressed in the Bible.

This is what Paul preached... repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.. and that's the basis according to scripture for God choosing anyone to salvation.. 'believing the truth'.. just like Abraham.. he believed God and and it was counted to him as righteousness.

Again, you choose to make the Bible contradict itself. Paul specifies that our faith (and that includes Abraham's faith) is a gift from God, not the result of anything we do or think.

Unless of course one becomes a Calvinist.. then they're taught that they didn't need to do anything to be saved.. they just wake up one day and poof.. they're in Christ.. lol

According to the Bible, people are doing all kinds of things when they're saved. None of those things has any effect on the cause of that salvation though.

 

[Hitch]

. Your wilful disingenuousness doesn't add any credibility to your argument.


Cut him some slack, it s all hes got.

 

[Eventide]

The really sad part is that no matter how many times I say no-one can cause their own salvation you falsely accuse me of saying the opposite. Your wilful disingenuousness doesn't add any credibility to your argument.

And we know that we all can't be as genuine and honest as the Calvinists..

Wilfully dishonest. You claim that your action causes God to seal you, making your works (i.e. ergon) the primary cause of your salvation. You claim God reacts to your decision. That is antithetical to biblical teaching.

Again, who could possibly as honest as YOU..?

AND Paul writes that believing is the basis for God saving us, and Eph 1:13 says it like this.. I simply believe it.. ie,

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise..

John 1 says it another way... "To them gave HE POWER to become the sons of God".. to those that RECEIVED HIM.

The only problem is that Calvin trumps Christ every time.. so what's the point..?

Wilful mischaracterization of my position. It's not a matter of my subjective opinion. It's a matter of God's objective view as expressed in the Bible.

Are you telling me that what you believe about Unconditional Election is not an opinion ?

Again, you choose to make the Bible contradict itself. Paul specifies that our faith (and that includes Abraham's faith) is a gift from God, not the result of anything we do or think.

I see no contradiction in the bible.. although I don't follow a dead man's theology either like you do.

According to the Bible, people are doing all kinds of things when they're saved. None of those things has any effect on the cause of that salvation though.

Yup, you must have woke up one day and poof.. you were in Christ right.. lol..