The MYTH of condemned men being the ELECT...

[Eventide]

Again, trust is not a reflexive action like breathing. God can miraculously grant it to you, or you can choose to have it. It's not a magical force that appears with no cause.

Trusting in Christ is the result of the gospel and from the conviction of the Spirit of God.. and once again the bible says that we trusted in Him after we heard the gospel of our salvation, and that after we believed, GOD sealed us with the Holy Spirit..

Now if you'd like to insist that God sealing us with the Holy Spirit is US saving ourselves, then so be it, I can't help you there.

Yeah, going to the original Greek. That's so outlandish.

It's fine if you'd like to go to the Greek... so please explain what Eph 1:13 says in Greek..

I've already advised you before that I don't believe you or anyone else has ever saved themselves. You claim to and deny that you're making the claim all at the same time. Totally delusional.

OK, so show me one place where I have claimed to save myself.. sounds like you're getting desperate here RD..

 

[RoadDebris]

Trusting in Christ is the result of the gospel and from the conviction of the Spirit of God.. and once again the bible says that we trusted in Him after we heard the gospel of our salvation, and that after we believed, GOD sealed us with the Holy Spirit..

What is the cause of the "conviction of the Spirit of God"? It can't be merely hearing the word or everyone who hears it would be saved and we know that's not true. So what's the difference between those who hear and accept and those who are standing in the same place, hearing the same message who don't accept?

Now if you'd like to insist that God sealing us with the Holy Spirit is US saving ourselves, then so be it, I can't help you there.

If you left it there that would be fine. Your belief would be in line with the Reformed view. However, you don't do that. You continually insist that man must do something in order to facilitate his salvation. That contradicts scripture.

It's fine if you'd like to go to the Greek... so please explain what Eph 1:13 says in Greek..

To be clear, I'm no scholar of ancient Greek. However, we are blessed with tools today that allow even non-scholars to examine the exact wording in the original Greek.
Ephesians 1:13 Greek Texts and Analysis

As before, there is no "before" or "after" in the original text. Folks get themselves in trouble when they start arguing the minutia of scripture based on their translation, which is not inerrant, and compound it with their own false presuppositions.

OK, so show me one place where I have claimed to save myself.. sounds like you're getting desperate here RD..

Ironically, your false inferences about my state of mind strike me the same way about you. Here's an idea: how 'bout just commenting on the content of what I say and leave the personal stuff out?

"So unconditional election is false at its basis.. because ALL election is conditional upon being IN CHRIST, and every member of the first Adam MAY be justified freely by placing their faith* and trust in the Last Adam, and thereby becoming the elect of God... and God, who alone judges true faith and repentance, baptizes them into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.. and they are new creatures IN HIM, in Christ." - Eventide

*emphasis mine

You claim your salvation is contingent on your actions. You claim to move yourself by "placing" your faith in God, and then you turn around and deny that you are making any such claim. Utterly delusional.

 

[Hitch]

Good work RD.

 

[Eventide]

You claim your salvation is contingent on your actions. You claim to move yourself by "placing" your faith in God, and then you turn around and deny that you are making any such claim. Utterly delusional.

There's a significant difference between what we must do and who does the saving.. we do the trusting and believing, after hearing the gospel, and God does the saving..

It's this simple RD..

What must I do to be saved.. Is it

a) believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..

b) nothing at all..

Which is it ?

And then WHO seals a believer with the Holy Spirit after they believe..

a) God

b) us

Simple questions right ?

 

[RoadDebris]

Even, you insist your salvation is contingent on you works (i.e. ergon*; things you do) (e.g. "placing" your faith). You also deny that you are doing this while you are doing it right in front us. I'm half expecting to hear you say shortly, "Who're you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?"




* 2041. ????? (ergon) -- work

 

[Eventide]

Even, you insist your salvation is contingent on you works (i.e. ergon*; things you do) (e.g. "placing" your faith). You also deny that you are doing this while you are doing it right in front us. I'm half expecting to hear you say shortly, "Who're you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?"




* 2041. ????? (ergon) -- work

So what are your answers to the two basic and simple questions RD.. or can't you even answer these very simple things ?

 

[RoadDebris]

So what are your answers to the two basic and simple questions RD.. or can't you even answer these very simple things ?

~facepalm~

Y'know, I have no problem answering questions. In fact, I enjoy the give and take of an honest conversation. Honest conversation. Honest. You basically denied claiming that you're saved by your own works and demanded that I quote you as saying so, which I did. Now, most people would consider it reasonable, honest, to admit that you have been making such a claim, given that you made a demand and that I accommodated that demand. So how 'bout it? Would you like to have an honest give and take or not? If so, how 'bout reasonable acknowledgements when I quote you as saying the things you say and so forth?

 

[Eventide]

~facepalm~

Y'know, I have no problem answering questions. In fact, I enjoy the give and take of an honest conversation. Honest conversation. Honest. You basically denied claiming that you're saved by your own works and demanded that I quote you as saying so, which I did. Now, most people would consider it reasonable, honest, to admit that you have been making such a claim, given that you made a demand and that I accommodated that demand. So how 'bout it? Would you like to have an honest give and take or not? If so, how 'bout reasonable acknowledgements when I quote you as saying the things you say and so forth?

Did you not understand the difference between trusting and believing in Christ as compared to His sealing that belief..?

This is why I asked the two simple questions.. and I know that you don't think that I'm as honest as you and that's fine.. although these two simple questions and your answers may clear up your misconception of a person saving themselves.. because they can't.. they can trust in Christ because of the gospel and they can believe that Christ died for their sins according to the scriptures... but they can't place themselves into the body of Christ.. because that's the work of God alone.. again I believe that Eph 1:13 describes it perfectly.

So how would you answer the two simple questions..?

 

[RoadDebris]

There's a significant difference between what we must do and who does the saving.. we do the trusting and believing, after hearing the gospel, and God does the saving..

It's this simple RD..

What must I do to be saved.. Is it

a) believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..

b) nothing at all..

Which is it ?

And then WHO seals a believer with the Holy Spirit after they believe..

a) God

b) us

Simple questions right ?

1) You can't cause your own salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ, both of which are gifts from God (see Eph. 2:8-9)

2) There's no "after" in the original text, as I've shown you. God is not subject to time, thus the biblical explanation of our predestination transcendent to time's creation. Don't put God in a box.

 

[Eventide]

1) You can't cause your own salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ, both of which are gifts from God (see Eph. 2:8-9)

So again, I agree that we can't cause our salvation.. but the question is what must I do to be saved, a) believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, or b) nothing..?

2) There's no "after" in the original text, as I've shown you. God is not subject to time, thus the biblical explanation of our predestination transcendent to time's creation. Don't put God in a box.

Again, the question is who seals us with the Holy Spirit after we believe ? a) God, b) us ?

 

[RoadDebris]

So again, I agree that we can't cause our salvation.. but the question is what must I do to be saved, a) believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, or b) nothing..?

To acknowledge that we can't cause our own salvation and then to ask what you can do to cause it to occur is irrational. Irrational theology is never valid.

Again, the question is who seals us with the Holy Spirit after we believe ? a) God, b) us ?

Again, there is no "after" in the text. God isn't subject to time. Don't put him in a box to serve your own ends.

 

[Eventide]

To acknowledge that we can't cause our own salvation and then to ask what you can do to cause it to occur is irrational. Irrational theology is never valid.

So what was the Apostle Paul thinking when he told the Jailor to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and he would be saved.. in response to the most serious and important question ever asked.. ?

Well, since RD can't answer the simple question, I'll answer it for him..

The Calvinist answer is NOTHING.. regardless of the fact that the word of God says BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ.. so yeah, I'd be ashamed to answer that one too if I was a Calvinist..

Again, there is no "after" in the text. God isn't subject to time. Don't put him in a box to serve your own ends.

OK, so I asked you to explain what Eph 1:13 means in the Greek and you can't do that either..

 

[savedbygrace57]

even:

So what was the Apostle Paul thinking when he told the Jailor to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and he would be saved.. in response to the most serious and important question ever asked.. ?

I have addressed that here :

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/must-one-believe-saved-34588/

 

[Eventide]

even:



I have addressed that here :

Yes, I think that we all know that you're answer is b) nothing..

 

[savedbygrace57]

Yes, I think that we all know that you're answer is b) nothing..

Paul was not giving the jailor a condition on how to get saved, but commanded him to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and he shall be saved. After that He spake unto him the word of the Lord the next verse says.

Now after speaking to him the word of the Lord, and he believed it, then he was in a saved state. Only a saved person can believe the word of the Lord.

Because the Gospel is hid to them that are Lost 2 Cor 4:


3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So a lost person cannot believe the word of the Lord,but if a Person does believe, that means they were not lost but saved..

 

[Eventide]

Paul was not giving the jailor a condition on how to get saved, but commanded him to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and he shall be saved. After that He spake unto him the word of the Lord the next verse says.

Now after speaking to him the word of the Lord, and he believed it, then he was in a saved state. Only a saved person can believe the word of the Lord.

Because the Gospel is hid to them that are Lost 2 Cor 4:


3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So a lost person cannot believe the word of the Lord,but if a Person does believe, that means they were not lost but saved..

So SBG.. let's keep it really simple..

What must I do to be saved ?

a) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved

b) Nothing

Which is it..

 

[savedbygrace57]

even:

So SBG.. let's keep it really simple..

What must I do to be saved ?

There is nothing you can do to get saved. If you believe the Gospel, then God has saved you.

 

[Eventide]

even:



There is nothing you can do to get saved. If you believe the Gospel, then God has saved you.

SO a person must believe, before God saves them, right ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

SO a person must believe, before God saves them, right ?

See post 315

 

[Elijah674]

even:



There is nothing you can do to get saved. If you believe the Gospel, then God has saved you.

I KNOW that I will BELIEVE CHRIST above this [post!]
Acts 9:3-6 found Saul 'KICKING AGAINST THE PRICKS OF HOLY GHOST' when CHRIST TOLD HIM WHAT HE MUST DO! (verse 6) when he asked 'WHAT MUST I DO'!!

And there will be NO ONE SAVED who will not 'yield up their stubborn will' to the Holy Spirit's PLEADINGS! Acts 5:32 is ETERNALLY CONDITIONAL regardless of how many time satan say's that it is not by promising one life. 2 Peter 2:17-22

(and NO, Nothing personal, but the doctrine of OSAS is NOTHING FROM THE GODHEAD!)

--Elijah