The MYTH of condemned men being the ELECT...

[RoadDebris]

So His choice is not based upon believing the truth ?

He doesn't wait for us to believe to grant us salvation. If He did no-one would ever be saved. He gives us the faith through which we are saved.

 

[reba]

Me neither... so what's your point.. are you going to mock me now because I believed the truth and you can't..

Even i dont set out to mock you you may read things as a mock but that is not my intent.

Why are you so rude? I dont challenge your salvation, I dont call you names.(not implying you call me names)

 

[Hitch]

Even i dont set out to mock you you may read things as a mock but that is not my intent.

Why are you so rude?

Come on cant you see hes better than you, He chose Christ, I'll bet you cant say THAT!

 

[RoadDebris]

Every person who has been saved has been saved by believing the truth.. even Abraham.. he believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness..

Although the obvious exception to the word of God is the Calvinists.. they were chosen to salvation based upon absolutely nothing.. that's what unconditional means.. no conditions.

God is not nothing. He merits all the glory for salvation. We rate none.

 

[Eventide]

He doesn't wait for us to believe to grant us salvation. If He did no-one would ever be saved. He gives us the faith through which we are saved.

If this is true, then please show us some biblical examples of God choosing people to salvation without them believing..

 

[RoadDebris]

If this is true, then please show us some biblical examples of God choosing people to salvation without them believing..

Saul of Tarsus. But that's not to say our intellect is absent from salvation, it's just not the cause of our salvation.

 

[Eventide]

Saul of Tarsus. But that's not to say our intellect is absent from salvation, it's just not the cause of our salvation.

So you believe that the Apostle to the Gentiles didn't need to believe in order to be saved.. ?

Here's what Paul told the Jailor in response to what he must do to be saved..

BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ..

Here's what he writes about all believers..

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise..

So where does this show that Paul didn't need to believe in order to be saved..?

 

[RoadDebris]

So you believe that the Apostle to the Gentiles didn't need to believe in order to be saved.. ?

Here's what Paul told the Jailor in response to what he must do to be saved..

BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ..

Here's what he writes about all believers..

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise..

So where does this show that Paul didn't need to believe in order to be saved..?

The crux here is choice and causation, Even. You claim a person must choose to accept Jesus, that that is what causes them to be saved. But what Paul breaks down to us in Ephesians and Romans is that no-one chooses God until He chooses them. He changes their will so it no longer fights against Him. It's like He changes the lightbulb. With an intact filament it suddenly goes on. We see this in action in Acts where Saul is saved.

 

[Eventide]

The crux here is choice and causation, Even. You claim a person must choose to accept Jesus, that that is what causes them to be saved. But what Paul breaks down to us in Ephesians and Romans is that no-one chooses God until He chooses them. He changes their will so it no longer fights against Him. It's like He changes the lightbulb. With an intact filament it suddenly goes on. We see this in action in Acts where Saul is saved.

Where's your scriptural support.. you don't expect me to just take your word for it do you ? Where does Romans or Eph teach that there is no need to believe in order to be SAVED..?

WHERE does the bible say that Paul didn't need to believe in order to be SAVED... I had asked for an example and you gave me Paul... so where does the bible say that Paul didn't need to believe ?

Should we just believe you without any scriptural support for your comments ?

 

[Eventide]

The crux here is choice and causation, Even. You claim a person must choose to accept Jesus, that that is what causes them to be saved..

Once again, there's a need to correct this comment concerning what I believe..

I claim what the bible claims, that a person must BELIEVE (not choose) on the Lord Jesus Christ to be SAVED.. and then that is NOT what causes them to be saved.. because the bible is also very clear in that a person is SAVED by God alone.. for example..

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise..

So here we see the simple biblical sequence.. a person HEARS the gospel.. they trust in Christ who is the central message of the gospel, and then A F T E R they BELIEVE, it is God who seals them with the Holy Spirit.. which is the earnest of their inheritance in HIM unto the praise of HIS glory..

Nothing about God causing anyone to believe... think of how ridiculous that makes God out to be.. He demands that all men repent and believe the gospel and then enables certain people to believe and condemns others because they do not believe when He didn't allow it in the first place..

I mean come on folks... is this actually how you see the infinitely glorious Lord Jesus Christ.. ? ? Seriously..

 

[reba]

If this is true, then please show us some biblical examples of God choosing people to salvation without them believing..

Psa 22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
Psa 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

1Sa 1:27 For this child I prayed; and the LORD hath given me my petition which I asked of him:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Exo 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.


Luk 1:14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

 

[Eventide]

Psa 22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
Psa 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

1Sa 1:27 For this child I prayed; and the LORD hath given me my petition which I asked of him:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Exo 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.


Luk 1:14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

So where do any of these verses show or teach that God chooses anyone to SALVATION without BELIEF ?

And you do know that some are referring to the Lord Jesus Christ who doesn't need salvation, but is the SAVIOR of all men, especially those that BELIEVE..

 

[RoadDebris]

QWhere's your scriptural support.. you don't expect me to just take your word for it do you ? Where does Romans or Eph teach that there is no need to believe in order to be SAVED..?

There's no support because you're engaging in a straw man fallacy again. I'm not arguing that. Since grace comes through faith, obviously faith is a necessary component of salvation. However, the faith is not the result, is not an effect of man's volition. No one wills themself to salvation. So, again, while it is a necessary property of salvation, it is not a prerequisite. It not something one obtains before they are saved to make themselves qualified to become saved.

WHERE does the bible say that Paul didn't need to believe in order to be SAVED... I had asked for an example and you gave me Paul... so where does the bible say that Paul didn't need to believe ?

In both Romans and Ephesians it says there are no prerequisite qualifications one must acquire to make themselves eligible for salvation.

 

[RoadDebris]

Once again, there's a need to correct this comment concerning what I believe..

I claim what the bible claims, that a person must BELIEVE (not choose) on the Lord Jesus Christ to be SAVED.. and then that is NOT what causes them to be saved.. because the bible is also very clear in that a person is SAVED by God alone.

So now you're saying you didn't choose to be saved? Because if you are, then we're in agreement on that. The Bible teaches we don't choose God until we're saved and then we choose Him.

So here we see the simple biblical sequence.. a person HEARS the gospel.. they trust in Christ who is the central message of the gospel, and then A F T E R they BELIEVE, it is God who seals them with the Holy Spirit.. which is the earnest of their inheritance in HIM unto the praise of HIS glory..

You do realize you're reading a translation, right? You are already aware that there's no "after" in the Greek, right? You're being woodenly literalistic in support of your false assumptions. And you're doing it in spite of Romans 9 which rules out human volition and Ephesians 2 which rules out human action in causing salvation.

Nothing about God causing anyone to believe...

The Holy Spirit claims to be the cause of salvation in Ephesians 2 and Romans 9. You may think He's ridiculous for making such a claim, but that's on you, not Him.

 

[Eventide]

Since grace comes through faith, obviously faith is a necessary component of salvation.

Glad to see you finally see that God's choosing us to salvation is conditional upon believing the truth.

However, the faith is not the result, is not an effect of man's volition. No one wills themself to salvation.

For the hundredth time.. no kidding that no one wills their salvation... people trust in Christ after hearing the gospel and then God saves them.

So, again, while it is a necessary property of salvation, it is not a prerequisite. It not something one obtains before they are saved to make themselves qualified to become saved.

Again, it's certainly a necessary condition for God choosing any person to salvation.

In both Romans and Ephesians it says there are no prerequisite qualifications one must acquire to make themselves eligible for salvation.

So what must I do to be SAVED Roaddebris..? What does the bible say ?

 

[Eventide]

So now you're saying you didn't choose to be saved? Because if you are, then we're in agreement on that. The Bible teaches we don't choose God until we're saved and then we choose Him.

For the 101 time now, nobody has said that we CHOOSE to be saved.. we trust in Christ AFTER hearing the gospel and then AFTER we believe, GOD seals us with the Holy Spirit... unless of course you don't believe what Eph 1:13 says..

You do realize you're reading a translation, right? You are already aware that there's no "after" in the Greek, right? You're being woodenly literalistic in support of your false assumptions. And you're doing it in spite of Romans 9 which rules out human volition and Ephesians 2 which rules out human action in causing salvation.

Now that's funny... it never ceases to amaze me how far Calvinist will go in order to cleave to what some dead guy taught hundreds of years ago.. there are literally dozens of places in the scriptures where faith is the justifier of men before God.. and Eph 1:13 spells it out perfectly.. but of course Calvinists can't stand the simple truth and must resort to one portion of scripture in Romans 9 to suopport their non biblical view of unconditional election.

The Holy Spirit claims to be the cause of salvation in Ephesians 2 and Romans 9. You may think He's ridiculous for making such a claim, but that's on you, not Him.

Of course God is the cause of salvation... but you see, you've been taught for so long that we all save ourselves that you really can't argue anything else.

 

[RoadDebris]

Glad to see you finally see that God's choosing us to salvation is conditional upon believing the truth.

Sorry to see you still engaging in intellectual dishonesty by wilfully mischaracterizing my views. God is not subject to our assent.

For the hundredth time.. no kidding that no one wills their salvation... people trust in Christ after hearing the gospel and then God saves them.

You've got it half right. No-one wills themselves to be saved (see Rom. 9:16) and no one does anything (e.g. trusts) to cause their salvation (see Eph. 2:8-9). It's strictly a gift from God.

Incidentally, it's absurd to claim people must trust with no volition on their part. Trust is not a reflexive action like breathing. You're stuck with either admitting that faith is strictly a gift from God, as the Bible claims, or that people choose to have it by their own will. At least if you want to be rational that's the choice you have.

Again, it's certainly a necessary condition for God choosing any person to salvation.

Not according to the Bible. God claims He chooses before we ever exist, except as a concept in His mind.

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. - 1 Cor. 2:7

He also claims to give us our faith, through which we are saved.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - Eph. 2:8

Someone can't have something before they posses it. That's a violation of the Law of Contradiction. Leave that kind of absurdity to the Catholics and atheists, Even. Really.

So what must I do to be SAVED Roaddebris..? What does the bible say ?

Both the Lord and the Holy Spirit say you can not cause your salvation to occur.

"The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." - John 3:8

not by works - Eph. 2:9

 

[RoadDebris]

For the 101 time now, nobody has said that we CHOOSE to be saved.. we trust in Christ AFTER hearing the gospel and then AFTER we believe, GOD seals us with the Holy Spirit... unless of course you don't believe what Eph 1:13 says..

Again, trust is not a reflexive action like breathing. God can miraculously grant it to you, or you can choose to have it. It's not a magical force that appears with no cause.

Now that's funny... it never ceases to amaze me how far Calvinist will go in order to cleave to what some dead guy taught hundreds of years ago..

Yeah, going to the original Greek. That's so outlandish.

Of course God is the cause of salvation... but you see, you've been taught for so long that we all save ourselves that you really can't argue anything else.

I've already advised you before that I don't believe you or anyone else has ever saved themselves. You claim to and deny that you're making the claim all at the same time. Totally delusional.

 

[savedbygrace57]

rd:

You claim to and deny that you're making the claim all at the same time. Totally delusional.

Now thats funny..

 

[Eventide]

Sorry to see you still engaging in intellectual dishonesty by wilfully mischaracterizing my views. God is not subject to our assent.

So when you said that faith is a necessary component of salvation, you didn't actually mean that..?

You've got it half right.

Thanks, sometimes I forget that Calvinists like yourself are the standard for what is right..

No-one wills themselves to be saved (see Rom. 9:16) and no one does anything (e.g. trusts) to cause their salvation (see Eph. 2:8-9). It's strictly a gift from God.

Incidentally, it's absurd to claim people must trust with no volition on their part. Trust is not a reflexive action like breathing. You're stuck with either admitting that faith is strictly a gift from God, as the Bible claims, or that people choose to have it by their own will. At least if you want to be rational that's the choice you have.

Once again I'll stick with the bilbical model which Paul teaches... that we trusted in Christ after hearing the gospel, and that after we believed, it was GOD (not us) who sealed us with the Holy Spirit of promise. Pretty simple right.. so why don't you explain what Eph 1:13 is teaching, perhaps that will help.

Not according to the Bible. God claims He chooses before we ever exist, except as a concept in His mind.

He didn't choose us... He chose us IN CHRIST.. a staggering difference to say the least..