THE NEW MAN

[Mitspa]

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone be in Christ, he is a NEW CREATION; the old things have past away; behold all things are new.

There is in fact two men in every born again believer, to "renew" the mind, is to bring the mind into the knowledge of who we are in spirit "IN CHRIST"

the "old man" must be considered dead with Christ at His Cross. The "new man" is the man that is raised from the dead with Him.

The old man was under the law of sin and death.
The new man is under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ.

For me, to hear anyone to claim to be a New Testament teacher, and not understand this truth, Is just another puffed up religious teacher. Those who see themselves in the flesh are "fleshly" carnal. Those who have been to His Cross and have died with Him are "spiritual" they see themselves and other believers according to who they are in spirit.

1 John 3:5-9
Is speaking of the "new creation" the spiritual man.
In Him, we have no sin, we cannot sin.
Now the bible is a flaming sword that gaurds the way back to the Tree of Life. It turns every way and judges the thoughts and intentions of every mans heart.
Until one dies to the flesh at His Cross, he is not able to receive the Kingdom of God. For the Kingdom is inherited by the "new man", not the old!
Therefore if you walk in the flesh you cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
The Word is called "the perfect law of liberty", because it sets us free from the old man and brings us into the liberty of life in Christ.

Now when one reads such a scripture as 2Cor 5:17. and believes who the spiritual mirror reflects, they are not a forgetful hearer. But when one looks at this truth and forgets, they are not a "producer" of the word.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone be in Christ, he is a NEW CREATION; the old things have past away; behold all things are new.

There is in fact two men in every born again believer, to "renew" the mind, is to bring the mind into the knowledge of who we are in spirit "IN CHRIST"

the "old man" must be considered dead with Christ at His Cross. The "new man" is the man that is raised from the dead with Him.

The old man was under the law of sin and death.
The new man is under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ.

For me, to hear anyone to claim to be a New Testament teacher, and not understand this truth, Is just another puffed up religious teacher. Those who see themselves in the flesh are "fleshly" carnal. Those who have been to His Cross and have died with Him are "spiritual" they see themselves and other believers according to who they are in spirit.

1 John 3:5-9
Is speaking of the "new creation" the spiritual man.
In Him, we have no sin, we cannot sin.
Now the bible is a flaming sword that gaurds the way back to the Tree of Life. It turns every way and judges the thoughts and intentions of every mans heart.
Until one dies to the flesh at His Cross, he is not able to receive the Kingdom of God. For the Kingdom is inherited by the "new man", not the old!
Therefore if you walk in the flesh you cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
The Word is called "the perfect law of liberty", because it sets us free from the old man and brings us into the liberty of life in Christ.

Now when one reads such a scripture as 2Cor 5:17. and believes who the spiritual mirror reflects, they are not a forgetful hearer. But when one looks at this truth and forgets, they are not a "producer" of the word.

Yes, I agree.

But you use this sentence "the old man was under the law of sin and death".

It seems that some "new men" turn back to being the "old men".

Do they not understand what they are doing?

Do they not understand what it means to be the "new man"?

What causes the "new man" to want to be the "old man" again?

 

[mondar]

Yes, I agree.

But you use this sentence "the old man was under the law of sin and death".

It seems that some "new men" turn back to being the "old men".

Do they not understand what they are doing?

Do they not understand what it means to be the "new man"?

What causes the "new man" to want to be the "old man" again?

Allenwynne, I think I know where you coming from, but I also think it needs to be expressed a little different. We do not turn to the new man, and cannot change our nature. Once we are in Christ, we cannot go back to the old man. Yet we can go back and serve sin like we still have the old man, but that should not be.

The term "Old Man" occurs in Romans 6:6.
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;

Once the old man is crusified with Christ, it is done away with. It can no more come back then Christ can be uncrusified. I think the part you are focused upon is the last part of Romans 6:6, that we should not be in bondage to sin. This is of course speaking of slavery. The rest of Romans 6 speaks many times about this slavery.

The term "Old Man" speaks of our legal position. We do not have a legal position of slavery. Thus romans 6:7, 18 speak of this freedom from our former sinful Adamic (see romans 5, the previous chapter) nature. So we are, and always will be free. This does not mean we cannot return to sin. Let me give an illustration....

In the antibellium south, before the civil war, the black man was a legal slave. If he ran off, the master had the legal right to find him and make him come back to the plantation because he was a slave. After the civil war, the black man was free. He could go anywhere legally. Yet, some returned to the plantation.

The spiritual problem we have is that even thought we are free, and can and should serve Christ, too often we return to the plantation and serve the old master, sin. Of course this should never be. For then we are freemen, serving the former master, sin.

Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death no more hath dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For the death that he died, he died unto sin once: but the life that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Men cannot be free, and then again a slave, and later again free. Christ died once to make us free and we are free indeed.

So then, technically, we do not go back and again have the old man, but we have the new man and still give way to the old nature. Unfortunately, it leaves us with even less excuse. It seems all the worse to be sinning. Such things should not be.

 

[Mitspa]

Yes, I agree.

But you use this sentence "the old man was under the law of sin and death".

It seems that some "new men" turn back to being the "old men".

Do they not understand what they are doing?

Do they not understand what it means to be the "new man"?

What causes the "new man" to want to be the "old man" again?

I think the scripture of Paul, best describes this conflict? The flesh wars against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh.
But we grow in grace and knowledge, even when we fail, and maybe more in our failures?
For His strength is made perfect through our weaknesses.
Because I am so sure of the failure of my own ability and the absolute condition of my flesh. I seek only the grace of God to overcome that part of me.
This is where the power of the Cross comes into the believers walk. Because if daily we go and see the need to crucify our flesh, and depend upon the spirit. We will in fact grow in grace. But if we forget and take up efforts of the flesh we will hinder the working of God within us.
"we are those who worship God in spirit and have no confidence in the flesh"

Fear and trembling , is the awarness of our limited mind and strength. If we stay in this condition of being a fool, and weak in self. Our salvation will be allowed to come from Christ in us, and the new man formed in us.

We in Christ and Christ in us. The New Man.

 

[Mitspa]

Allenwynne, I think I know where you coming from, but I also think it needs to be expressed a little different. We do not turn to the new man, and cannot change our nature. Once we are in Christ, we cannot go back to the old man. Yet we can go back and serve sin like we still have the old man, but that should not be.

The term "Old Man" occurs in Romans 6:6.
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;

Once the old man is crusified with Christ, it is done away with. It can no more come back then Christ can be uncrusified. I think the part you are focused upon is the last part of Romans 6:6, that we should not be in bondage to sin. This is of course speaking of slavery. The rest of Romans 6 speaks many times about this slavery.

The term "Old Man" speaks of our legal position. We do not have a legal position of slavery. Thus romans 6:7, 18 speak of this freedom from our former sinful Adamic (see romans 5, the previous chapter) nature. So we are, and always will be free. This does not mean we cannot return to sin. Let me give an illustration....

In the antibellium south, before the civil war, the black man was a legal slave. If he ran off, the master had the legal right to find him and make him come back to the plantation because he was a slave. After the civil war, the black man was free. He could go anywhere legally. Yet, some returned to the plantation.

The spiritual problem we have is that even thought we are free, and can and should serve Christ, too often we return to the plantation and serve the old master, sin. Of course this should never be. For then we are freemen, serving the former master, sin.

Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death no more hath dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For the death that he died, he died unto sin once: but the life that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Men cannot be free, and then again a slave, and later again free. Christ died once to make us free and we are free indeed.

So then, technically, we do not go back and again have the old man, but we have the new man and still give way to the old nature. Unfortunately, it leaves us with even less excuse. It seems all the worse to be sinning. Such things should not be.

Sorry mondar, you have missed the truth of these scriptures. The flesh "body of sin" is a fact. Thus we have ALL the scriptures that relate to this struggle. The New Man is a fact, in spirit we are a New creation. Now the battle is a real one! This is why Pauls spends so much effort on teaching us to no longer depend upon the flesh, but to renew our minds to what is true in us, and us In Christ.

 

[vocalyocal]

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone be in Christ, he is a NEW CREATION; the old things have past away; behold all things are new.

There is in fact two men in every born again believer, to "renew" the mind, is to bring the mind into the knowledge of who we are in spirit "IN CHRIST"

the "old man" must be considered dead with Christ at His Cross. The "new man" is the man that is raised from the dead with Him.

The old man was under the law of sin and death.
The new man is under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ.

For me, to hear anyone to claim to be a New Testament teacher, and not understand this truth, Is just another puffed up religious teacher. Those who see themselves in the flesh are "fleshly" carnal. Those who have been to His Cross and have died with Him are "spiritual" they see themselves and other believers according to who they are in spirit.

1 John 3:5-9
Is speaking of the "new creation" the spiritual man.
In Him, we have no sin, we cannot sin.
Now the bible is a flaming sword that gaurds the way back to the Tree of Life. It turns every way and judges the thoughts and intentions of every mans heart.
Until one dies to the flesh at His Cross, he is not able to receive the Kingdom of God. For the Kingdom is inherited by the "new man", not the old!
Therefore if you walk in the flesh you cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
The Word is called "the perfect law of liberty", because it sets us free from the old man and brings us into the liberty of life in Christ.

Now when one reads such a scripture as 2Cor 5:17. and believes who the spiritual mirror reflects, they are not a forgetful hearer. But when one looks at this truth and forgets, they are not a "producer" of the word.

the truth is the born again man is a new creation, the problem is many don't believe it, and the lies of the enemy draw them back into the sins of the old man........baptism is symbolic of us dieing.........and again some don't allow themselves to die fully to their old ways

 

[Mitspa]

the truth is the born again man is a new creation, the problem is many don't believe it, and the lies of the enemy draw them back into the sins of the old man........baptism is symbolic of us dieing.........and again some don't allow themselves to die fully to their old ways

I agree with you vocal, but the solution is not to always point out the fault and the weakness of the "old man". The solution is to feed the "new man" the bread of life. Most christians struggle with sin because they have not been taught how to draw from Gods grace. Instead they have been put back under forms of law and legalism. "For sin will not have dominion over you because you are not under law, but under grace"
The strength of sin, is the law!
So the solution is not law, but grace! and abundant grace.

 

[vocalyocal]

I agree with you vocal, but the solution is not to always point out the fault and the weakness of the "old man". The solution is to feed the "new man" the bread of life. Most christians struggle with sin because they have not been taught how to draw from Gods grace. Instead they have been put back under forms of law and legalism. "For sin will not have dominion over you because you are not under law, but under grace"
The strength of sin, is the law!
So the solution is not law, but grace! and abundant grace.

for me getting free from sins that lead to death
was only accomplished through understanding that sin is a deception (deceitfulness of sin) when you realize that the sins that hold a person in bondage are simply a lie, rebuking the lie and understanding that the sin never delivers what it promises, and always left me in regret, I finally stopped fighting the flesh, and started fighting the battle in the mind, WIN THE BATTLE OVER WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT, and the flesh is easily overcome and insubmission

 

[ezra]

for me getting free from sins that lead to death
was only accomplished through understanding that sin is a deception (deceitfulness of sin) when you realize that the sins that hold a person in bondage are simply a lie, rebuking the lie and understanding that the sin never delivers what it promises, and always left me in regret, I finally stopped fighting the flesh, and started fighting the battle in the mind, WIN THE BATTLE OVER WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT, and the flesh is easily overcome and insubmission

exactly vocal we have to realize its there thats why paul wrote to yield our self to righteousness .. we tend yield to the flesh--sin. we have to sow to the spirit :amen

 

[Mitspa]

for me getting free from sins that lead to death
was only accomplished through understanding that sin is a deception (deceitfulness of sin) when you realize that the sins that hold a person in bondage are simply a lie, rebuking the lie and understanding that the sin never delivers what it promises, and always left me in regret, I finally stopped fighting the flesh, and started fighting the battle in the mind, WIN THE BATTLE OVER WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT, and the flesh is easily overcome and insubmission

The "deception of sin" is the condition of those under law?
For Paul said that by the law sin was made exceeding sinful and deceived him. So just as the pharisee, who thought they were without sin but were decieved by sin. So no one is more deceived by sin, than those who think they have a self-ability to overcome sin. Its ONLY by the Grace of God. Now I agree a great truth is learning to set your mind upon Christ and beholding Him in your thoughts. But I do not see the scriptures as a mind game, but living spiritual truth.

One can not think of sin all day, but if they have not the Spirit and the Divine Nature working through them, they are still in the deception of sin. Only they do not know it. Just like the pharisees. They would claim this same ability but they were far from the will of God.
Maybe you did not make your point as fully as you would have liked? Forgive me if I have failed to understand your point?

 

[Mitspa]

exactly vocal we have to realize its there thats why paul wrote to yield our self to righteousness .. we tend yield to the flesh--sin. we have to sow to the spirit :amen

I am glad you agree with me in part ezra, but no man has power over the flesh, apart from the grace of God.
Sorry thats the bible!

So again the key to overcoming the old man, is to empower the new man, by the Grace of God.
Why do you think Paul said over and over, that" may the grace of God be with your spirit"? its called the Spirit of Grace.

 

[vocalyocal]

The "deception of sin" is the condition of those under law?
For Paul said that by the law sin was made exceeding sinful and deceived him. So just as the pharisee, who thought they were without sin but were decieved by sin. So no one is more deceived by sin, than those who think they have a self-ability to overcome sin. Its ONLY by the Grace of God. Now I agree a great truth is learning to set your mind upon Christ and beholding Him in your thoughts. But I do not see the scriptures as a mind game, but living spiritual truth.

One can not think of sin all day, but if they have not the Spirit and the Divine Nature working through them, they are still in the deception of sin. Only they do not know it. Just like the pharisees. They would claim this same ability but they were far from the will of God.
Maybe you did not make your point as fully as you would have liked? Forgive me if I have failed to understand your point?

the sin nature works like this, if there is a rule not to do something we are attracted to it, the law works this way with our sinful nature

 

[ezra]

but no man has power over the flesh, apart from the grace of God.

:shocked! what makes you think i discounted the Grace of GOD? the HOLY SPIRIT gives us the power. the Grace is simply the divine favor of GOD ..the Divine GRACE === favor .is unlimited you can call it the spirit of Grace . i call it the HOLY SPIRIT .. tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high —Luke 24:49..The disciples had to tarry, staying in Jerusalem until the day of Pentecost, after pentecost the power was given to all who believe Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. i do not have time to debate with you on how it is said my goodness :dunno

 

[Mitspa]

the sin nature works like this, if there is a rule not to do something we are attracted to it, the law works this way with our sinful nature

I agree that is a part of its deception, but it also produces hypocricy which is the greatest deception. As the Lord said."because you say you have no sin, your sin remains" What grace and the understanding of the New Creation allow is a complete honesty about our flesh and its sinful desires. We can judge ourselves in truth apart from condemnation, apart from sowing fig leaves and mask of religious self-righteousness.

So you see the strength of sin is the law, because it judges and condemns the old man and holds him in bondage to sin.

 

[Mitspa]

:shocked! what makes you think i discounted the Grace of GOD? the HOLY SPIRIT gives us the power. the Grace is simply the divine favor of GOD ..the Divine GRACE === favor .is unlimited you can call it the spirit of Grace . i call it the HOLY SPIRIT .. tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high —Luke 24:49..The disciples had to tarry, staying in Jerusalem until the day of Pentecost, after pentecost the power was given to all who believe Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. i do not have time to debate with you on how it is said my goodness :dunno

Dont want to get you stirred up today, but I must correct you?
Grace is not just divine favor, it is a Spirit that empowers us over the desires of the flesh. It is not just a doctrine it is described in scripture as many different aspects of Gods work in our life. It is given to the "new man"

So dont blow a fuse on me! Just wanted to explain that in Which I am speaking about.

 

[ezra]

Dont want to get you stirred up today, but I must correct you?
Grace is not just divine favor, it is a Spirit that empowers us over the desires of the flesh. It is not just a doctrine it is described in scripture as many different aspects of Gods work in our life. It is given to the "new man"

So dont blow a fuse on me! Just wanted to explain that in Which I am speaking about.

i will say this in a nice manner the best i can .1. i don,t care if you get stirred up or not...sorry not my intent ..i stand my ground... your not my Holy Spirit.. 2. you can try to correct me note i said try. 3. your not the authority on scripture as you think..last but not least don,t try to treat me as a novice .i can back up the way i believe with scripture. the Grace of GOD is a type teacher also Titus 2:11-14
English Standard Version (ESV)
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works. so un fluff your feathers.. just because i dont say it like you do. i apologize for being so blunt but you remind me of a history teacher i had in j.r high she had perfect hearing but had to wear a hearing aide. :shocked!

 

[ezra]

the sin nature works like this, if there is a rule not to do something we are attracted to it, the law works this way with our sinful nature

GOOD EXAMPLE like a sign reading wet paint..we have to touch it to see if it is still wet :amen

 

[Mitspa]

i will say this in a nice manner the best i can .1. i don,t care if you get stirred up or not...sorry not my intent ..i stand my ground... your not my Holy Spirit.. 2. you can try to correct me note i said try. 3. your not the authority on scripture as you think..last but not least don,t try to treat me as a novice .i can back up the way i believe with scripture. the Grace of GOD is a type teacher also Titus 2:11-14
English Standard Version (ESV)
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works. so un fluff your feathers.. just because i dont say it like you do. i apologize for being so blunt but you remind me of a history teacher i had in j.r high she had perfect hearing but had to wear a hearing aide. :shocked!

I did not say I would get stirred but that I did not want to upset you as in the past. Here you have described a grace that goes beyond just divine favor. A grace that teaches. As I was saying before the term "grace" is used for many aspects of Gods work on our behalf. That was my point.
Now as far as my knowledge of the truth of scripture, you knew very well when you posted on this thread, that you would hear my views and I would be very bold in the way that I set them forth. So if I am the teacher with the hearing aid? You are guy who keeps getting set to the principles office, for disturbing the class. lol

 

[iLOVE]

I did not say I would get stirred but that I did not want to upset you as in the past. Here you have described a grace that goes beyond just divine favor. A grace that teaches. As I was saying before the term "grace" is used for many aspects of Gods work on our behalf. That was my point.
Now as far as my knowledge of the truth of scripture, you knew very well when you posted on this thread, that you would hear my views and I would be very bold in the way that I set them forth. So if I am the teacher with the hearing aid? You are guy who keeps getting set to the principles office, for disturbing the class. lol

LOL!

 

[Mitspa]

I agree that is a part of its deception, but it also produces hypocricy which is the greatest deception. As the Lord said."because you say you have no sin, your sin remains" What grace and the understanding of the New Creation allow is a complete honesty about our flesh and its sinful desires. We can judge ourselves in truth apart from condemnation, apart from sowing fig leaves and mask of religious self-righteousness.

So you see the strength of sin is the law, because it judges and condemns the old man and holds him in bondage to sin.

I wanted to bring this forward because I think it relates to what I am trying to teach? The fact that the "old man" fallen man in the Adamic nature, whats to hide his sinful condition from the light of truth, is seen thoughout scripture. The key to overcome the sin of the flesh, is to be in complete dependance upon the grace of God for righteousness. actually one would learn to reckon themselves dead indeed to sin, if they understood who they are in spirit. The ability to be honest with God at all times about any weakness is the key to overcome.
It is only when attempt to cover our shame with fig-leaves of self-righteousness do we hinder the grace and mercy of God in our lives.