The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology

[Hospes]

Adam.. ?

Are you sure? I kinda like the idea of somehow linking my wrong behavior to my wife's influence...

 

[stovebolts]

Are you sure? I kinda like the idea of somehow linking my wrong behavior to my wife's influence...

Lol! Your so much like Adam lol!

Genesis 3:12 NLT
12 The man replied, “It was the woman you gave me who gave me the fruit, and I ate it.”

whats sad, is Adam once called her, bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. Harmony was no more.

 

[Hospes]

Lol! Your so much like Adam lol!

Genesis 3:12 NLT
12 The man replied, “It was the woman you gave me who gave me the fruit, and I ate it.”

whats sad, is Adam once called her, bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. Harmony was no more.

You see! Even the scriptures support my position! Can't wait to show v12 to my bride!

(You just know someone on here will think I'm serious... )

 

[JLB]

Maybe if you would quote my question and then respond, then I'd see more clearly you are addressing my question.

I did exactly that in post 268 and also post 278.

Here it is for the third time —

BTW, what conclusion(s) do you draw from the words being interchangable?

That believing without obeying is useless.

It’s actually called “demonic believing”, and is what many people are engaged in, thanks to false teachings in the Church.


You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! James 2:19


Demons believe Jesus rose from the dead, and that He is Lord, however they continue to obey Satan, so therefore Satan is their lord.


This is the point Paul makes in Romans where he says...

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16


If we believe Jesus is Lord by do not obey Him, then He is not our Lord.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9





JLB

 

[Hospes]

I did exactly that in post 268 and also post 278.

Here it is for the third time —

How would you like for me to respond to your 3X posting? Further apologies? Some other form of penitence?

It'd be nice to move off of process and back to dialog.

 

[tdidymas]

So the whole Bible starts with God created earth. So this tradumumumism is yet another twisting doctrine among maaany more.
God created man with a free will. To choose by their selves.
God is no author of sin. The Bible clearly speaks of origin of sin and our potential to do it.

Both Adam and Eve was deceived. But still chose to do so having been warned.

Don't complicate things more than necessary.

God good. Satan bad. Man bad. (Because of the fall) by free choice.
God still good tho. Thank God for that.
Pride comes before the fall. We should by all means avoid it!

Shalom

Yet, the Bible says "through one man sin entered the world." This means that Adam was without sin until he sinned, then sin came into the world and "spread to all men". It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see clearly that sin is inherited, and this is proved by the fact that everyone sins, including children who don't know right from wrong.
TD

 

[stovebolts]

, the Bible says "through one man sin entered the world." This means that Adam was without sin until he sinned, then sin came into the world and "spread to all men".

Yes, sin fractures our world and our relationships. Adam blames Eve and Eve blames the serpent. Adam refuses to accept his actions and by doing so, fractures his relationship with Eve. This is interesting, and significant that Eve has no name until after the fall. Prior to the fall, the two are one. As Adam put it, she was bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. After the fall she is called the mother of all living. This is because on that day, Adam died and harmony in the garden was broken.

. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see clearly that sin is inherited, and this is proved by the fact that everyone sins, including children who don't know right from wrong.

You'll have to read Ezekiel 18. You'll also have to show me where scripture says we inherit the sins of our fathers.

You rightly said earlier that Adam was sinless until he sinned. This shows that Adam had the propensity to sin. It also shows that Adam was created without sin, but there was a point when he did sin.

Psalm 139 echo's this narrative and supports that we are created without sin

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

 

[tdidymas]

I agree, our path do diverge from here. I would add this though, I don’t consider your evidence convincing. What I consider it is lacking in depth. True, you have put Passages beside each other to build the narrative to support a doctrine. But I don’t agree with the measure you used to put them side by side because from my understanding, the passages tell different stories and have little business beside one another to create a new narrative.

That's the nature of proof-texting, which is the normal way of debating in this forum. It is extremely difficult to be comprehensive in biblical exegesis for supporting an idea. Proof-texting is a sort of shortcut.

Ps. 51 might be seen as a weak passage to support the inherited sin idea. It says "in sin my mother conceived me." But it begs the question why would he say that in that context, and what are we to conclude from it about whether a person was born with a sinful nature or not? I think the Bible is clear that every person is sinful by nature, so my conclusion to this verse is that it implies that since David was conceived in sin, then sin was transferred to him from his parents, that he is implying that he has been sinful since conception (by nature).

I agree that sin entered the world through one man, Adam. And that is exactly what I am talking about. Adam had no sin in him until he disobeyed. Adam was created sinless, and then he sinned.

If Adam could not sin, then there would be no need for Gods command not to eat from the tree. If God commanded us to fly, then he would have equipped us with the means to fly. In this same way, God commands us to love him, and our neighbor. If we did not have the propensity to keep Gods commandments, either positive or negative he would not command them.

If Adam could not sin, then how did he sin?

I never said Adam could not sin. I said he did not have the propensity to do so, since Paul said he was "not deceived." The scripture doesn't say how he did it, it merely says he did it. The scripture doesn't offer us any method of becoming sinless, either. It merely says we are sinful, and what we must do about it.

I certainly don’t agree that God is the author of sin and I don’t think I’d enjoy talking with anyone who believed he was. As far as traducianism, I don’t know how to pronounce it, let alone understand what it means. I also don’t understand your usage of the term creationism.

Creationism is a doctrine held by some Christians that God creates a soul for each body that is generated. People believing this usually believe that every person is born without a nature to sin. I don't believe this, because I believe the Bible is clear that every person is sinful by nature.

Traducianism is a doctrine about the origin of the soul, holding that this immaterial aspect is transmitted through natural generation along with the body, the material aspect of human beings. That is, an individual's soul is derived from the souls of the individual's parents. People who hold to this view usually believe that the sin nature is inherited. I believe the Bible teaches that the sin nature is inherited from the parents, and more specifically the father.

Now I find that odd when it comes to humanity.
Yes, God created his creation to create. For instance, he commands the earth to bring forth trees and plants and cattle etc and to the water he commands to bring forth fish etc.

but with humanity he says, let us... At a basic level, God creates / forms humanity from the dust of the earth, yet breathes His Spirit into humanity. We are not like the other animals that came from the dust, and in many ways.

"Create" is a relative term. God told Adam and Eve to "multiply." This term refers to the natural process of procreation, much as plants and animals, and so progeny is analogized as "seed."

I agree that mankind was created differently, since it says that God "breathed into Adam the breath of life, and he became a living soul." But I am wondering how you distinguish between the Spirit of God and man's spirit at this point since you mention it. The Holy Spirit does not indwell all people, only believers in Christ.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Yes, sin fractures our world and our relationships. Adam blames Eve and Eve blames the serpent. Adam refuses to accept his actions and by doing so, fractures his relationship with Eve. This is interesting, and significant that Eve has no name until after the fall. Prior to the fall, the two are one. As Adam put it, she was bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. After the fall she is called the mother of all living. This is because on that day, Adam died and harmony in the garden was broken.

Your point on this?

You'll have to read Ezekiel 18. You'll also have to show me where scripture says we inherit the sins of our fathers.

Are you confusing the terms "sin" and "sins"? Ez. 18 says that children will not be punished for the sins (sinful acts) of their fathers. This is quite different than inheriting the inclination to commit sin. The sinful nature is a principle that is inherent in fallen man. That inheritance has nothing to do with punishment, as punishment for sins committed is the responsibility of the sinner.

You rightly said earlier that Adam was sinless until he sinned. This shows that Adam had the propensity to sin. It also shows that Adam was created without sin, but there was a point when he did sin.

Psalm 139 echo's this narrative and supports that we are created without sin

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

I disagree with you that Adam had the propensity to sin. It was possible for him to do so, but he was not inclined to it. I take it that Paul was acknowledging this when he wrote that Adam "was not deceived."

Paul also wrote in Rom. 5 "Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come."
This could mean that Adam sinned a much worse sin than anyone else, because he "was not deceived." But it could also mean that people commit sin without breaking any command of God, which supports the inherited sin idea. I think it also supports the idea that Adam's initial condition was different than everyone else. I get the idea that people who think they weren't born with a sinful nature don't know the true condition of their heart. Many people who think that way claim they are "basically good," which is contrary to scripture.
TD

 

[jasonc]

there are children who are more like their mother then dad ,or have both natures good or bad

 

[Hospes]

God certainly is the author and finisher of our faith.

However, He doesn’t do it apart from our active participation; apart from our obedience.

Here is how I understand your position. (Please correct if I am wrong.):

1. On the Cross, Jesus paid for every single sin for every single human ever to exist and for those humans yet to exist.
2. For someone to be saved and remain saved they must live their lives believing in Jesus and obeying His commands. (I am assuming you do not mean unwavering believing and unwavering obedience, but rather they have lives marked by a dedication to believing and obedience.)
3. For every person, the decision to believe/obey is encouraged/strengthened by God, but God does not encourage/strengthen a person to the point that all their resistance to believing/obeying is overcome.
4. Upon God providing the encouragement/strengthening written of in #3 above, He then leaves a person with the determinative autonomous agency for making a decision to believe/obey.
5. If a person uses their agency to choose to believe/obey, then God will cause them to be born again.
6. If a person uses their agency to choose NOT to believe/obey, then God will cause them NOT to be born again. (This could happen even after a person is born again.)

Have I fairly stated your position?

 

[JLB]

How would you like for me to respond to your 3X posting? Further apologies? Some other form of penitence?

It'd be nice to move off of process and back to dialog.

No apologies.


I agree with you that your questions should be answered.


I think your questions are good, and valid, however I may not understand fully what you are asking sometimes, so please be open to "reframe" your question if I don't answer it correctly.

In getting back to the dialog, I have a question for you.


Do you believe a person is saved first, then they have the ability to believe?



JLB




Thanks JLB

 

[JLB]

Here is how I understand your position. (Please correct if I am wrong.):

1. On the Cross, Jesus paid for every single sin for every single human ever to exist and for those humans yet to exist.
2. For someone to be saved and remain saved they must live their lives believing in Jesus and obeying His commands. (I am assuming you do not mean unwavering believing and unwavering obedience, but rather they have lives marked by a dedication to believing and obedience.)
3. For every person, the decision to believe/obey is encouraged/strengthened by God, but God does not encourage/strengthen a person to the point that all their resistance to believing/obeying is overcome.
4. Upon God providing the encouragement/strengthening written of in #3 above, He then leaves a person with the determinative autonomous agency for making a decision to believe/obey.
5. If a person uses their agency to choose to believe/obey, then God will cause them to be born again.
6. If a person uses their agency to choose NOT to believe/obey, then God will cause them NOT to be born again. (This could happen even after a person is born again.)

Have I fairly stated your position?

Close.

One must believe and therefore obey the Gospel to be born again, which is obeying the command of the Gospel to repent.

Repent means "turn to God" in submission to Him as Lord. The way we obey the command to turn to God, is to confess Jesus as Lord.


This action of obedience (the obedience of faith) is clearly laid out in Romans 10.

6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:6-10


Key Verse:

• For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is what is required to be saved by faith; to be born again, regenerated; confessing Jesus as Lord.


Now as a new creation in Christ we are prepared to live in accordance to the will of our Lord, which involves receiving the Holy Spirit, and beginning the process of becoming sons of God, so that at the end of our faith we will receive the salvation of our soul.


JLB

 

[Link1983]

Link,

Now that all of us have sinful natures, is it possible to choose not to sin - most of the time?

Oz

Yes. But for me not to sin. I think I have to know what to do and how think right.
That's why I am happy to have the Bible as it is the only book, that contains the instructions on how to avoid sin and live righteous.

I think we often sin unknowingly tho..
So I can't rely on myself on this. I have to rely on God to show me the way.

Shalom

 

[Link1983]

1 Timothy 2:14 NLT
And it was not Adam who was deceived by Satan. The woman was deceived, and sin was the result.

There are two types of sin spoken in scripture. Eve was deceived while Adam willfully disobeyed. It was Adams willful sin that resulted in death.

Romans 5:12 NLT
When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.


Yes, I believe it starts with free will. When we look at how sin occurs, James put it this way.

James 1:14 -15 NLT
14 Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. 15 These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.

You are right Stovebolts.
Adam was not deceived by satan. But did he know?
Was it not Eve that deceived him?

I guess spiritual death must have came from his willful disobedience..
Hmmm..

Shalom

 

[Link1983]

Yes, sin fractures our world and our relationships. Adam blames Eve and Eve blames the serpent. Adam refuses to accept his actions and by doing so, fractures his relationship with Eve. This is interesting, and significant that Eve has no name until after the fall. Prior to the fall, the two are one. As Adam put it, she was bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. After the fall she is called the mother of all living. This is because on that day, Adam died and harmony in the garden was broken.

You'll have to read Ezekiel 18. You'll also have to show me where scripture says we inherit the sins of our fathers.

You rightly said earlier that Adam was sinless until he sinned. This shows that Adam had the propensity to sin. It also shows that Adam was created without sin, but there was a point when he did sin.

Psalm 139 echo's this narrative and supports that we are created without sin

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

That is a fine scripture!
Thinking about Eve being deceived by satan and adam deceived or fullfil choosing tho...
Was Adam's sin greater than Eve? ?
Or are they Equal?
Just a thought.. this question doesn't necessarily matter..

 

[Hospes]

No apologies.

I agree with you that your questions should be answered.

I think your questions are good, and valid, however I may not understand fully what you are asking sometimes, so please be open to "reframe" your question if I don't answer it correctly.

Thank you, JBL.

I would welcome the chance to re-frame any of my questions. I highly value clarity and want to have the chance to make what I write understood.

Do you believe a person is saved first, then they have the ability to believe?

This is a great question, I just don't know if I can answer it for you satisfactorily. The question is based on the premise that there is a sequence of events. Could it be that regeneration, belief, repentance, and obedience to the Gospel be simultaneous events?

Regardless of sequential vs. simultaneous, I think they are all determinatively accomplished by God apart from any work done by the person saved..

 

[GodsGrace]

I have just begun reading the book Deconstructing Calvinism, by Hudson Smelley, and in the prologue found this statement:

Calvinism completely compasses God's redemptive plan and teaches that God saves a small percentage of humanity based on His elective determination before creation and passes over the rest. Since God's redemptive plan excludes most people, there is no basis for us to tell a lost person that God loves them, that Jesus died for them, that they should believe in Christ for salvation, or that there is hope beyond the grave. If the lost person is not elect, we would be misleading them if we said any of those things. Indeed, it is difficult to see how we could make any honest gospel presentation knowing most people are by God's purposes not savable. Not only that, since salvation hangs on God's elective determination before creation and not on a present decision for Christ, we must make this TULIP reality personal. We must come to grips with the fact that many of those we know, and perhaps some of those closest to us, have no possibility of being reconciled to God because they are not elect.

What caught my eye is the idea that "there is no basis for us to tell a lost person that God loves them, that Jesus died for them, that they should believe in Christ for salvation, or that there is hope beyond the grave. If the lost person is not elect, we would be misleading them if we said any of those things."

I had always thought the Calvinistic evangelism was like searching for the proverbial needle in a haystack,, the rare Elect person in the mass of reprobates, but had never thought of the effect of the presentation of the gospel to those who would never be able to experience it. Smelley terms it "misleading" them to think that they might be savable, when in fact, there isn't a sliver of hope that this would happen.

What are your thoughts, either pro or con to Smelley's thought?


Doug

Hi Doug,

I agree with Smelley 100%.
Searching for the proverbial needle in a haystack has no place in Calvinistic soteriology. There is no NEED to search for the needle because the person God determines to save will be saved whether or not he is found in the "haystack".

It is absolutely misleading to preach to a crowd of persons if one believes God does the electing with no participation from the individual.
What would the person who is witnessing/preaching say? The only HONEST wording would be that the person cannot do too much to be saved....because God will so determine this.

Doesn't sound like much of what the N.T. teaches, does it?

 

[GodsGrace]

That is a fine scripture!
Thinking about Eve being deceived by satan and adam deceived or fullfil choosing tho...
Was Adam's sin greater than Eve? ?
Or are they Equal?
Just a thought.. this question doesn't necessarily matter..

Hi Link,
Adam's sin was greater. It was Adam's sin that caused humanity to fall --- not Eve's.
God made his covenant with Adam, not with Eve.

Romans 5:12 tell us that through ONE MAN sin entered into the world.
New American Standard Bible
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

1 Corinthians 15:21-22
…21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Link1983]

Hi Link,
Adam's sin was greater. It was Adam's sin that caused humanity to fall --- not Eve's.
God made his covenant with Adam, not with Eve.

Romans 5:12 tell us that through ONE MAN sin entered into the world.
New American Standard Bible
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

1 Corinthians 15:21-22
…21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

He had to take responsibility. As God created both the world and Eve for him and of him.
Both guilty tho.
Would he eat the fruit if not Eve did it first?

Not too serious about this. But interesting still. Like to understand things the right way too..