Tongues As A Sign For Unbelievers.

[tdidymas]

You can find that even if you are looking at a cesspool, you can still see glimmers and slivers of light reflecting off of it from the sun. You can see slivers and glimmers of the Holy Spirit and Gifts in any Church, no matter how bad. There is a remnant in each church and scattered about. Look for that remnant and not the masses. If a church leader shows pride then he has taken over that church by his own audacity. Many people admire simple audacity and flock to those types. Even though the leader and the masses of that church are lost "blind leading blind" you can still find that little sliver of the Kingdom scattered about. Look for those few in every church who exhibit patience/humility/perseverance/a serving spirit etc.

I go to a Bible church now, and at least 80% of the congregation are genuine Christians. I think I'll stay there. It seems that if you are experiencing a sliver of the Kingdom scattered about, it begs the question are you in the wrong crowd?

 

[tdidymas]

Tell all the Africans and Indian Christians and non-Christians (who subsequently came to Christ), who received miracles of healing of all kinds of medical conditions, including cancer, goiters, etc, and the young woman who was bitten by a snake and was dead for three hours, brought back to life through prayer, no brain injury and now has a masters degree. Go over there and tell them they are lying!

Yet more exaggerative slanders typical of P/Cs who have an agenda and don't seek to understand what they are reading.

 

[tdidymas]

Brother please answer my question, if you can.


How many years before a new born baby fully develops the ability to communicate fluently in a language?

2?
5?
10?
15?


How many years does it take someone to learn to speak a new language fluently?


Im going to give you some help here, since you seem to be struggling to answer honestly.


The answer is: It depends on how much they use their new language, to develop all the nuances of that particular dialect. If they were taught incorrectly then it may be years before they realize they were pronouncing certain words or syllables incorrectly.





We know that there are some people who may indeed operate in a counterfeit tongue, however this doesn’t disprove that there is a real spiritual tongue, rather it proves it.

Your argument seems to be akin in trying to convince everyone that because there is counterfeit money, then there is no such thing as real money.




JLB

What is in circulation in the market: Real money 99.99%, counterfeit 0.01% (or less)

What is in circulation in the P/C churches: Real miracles 0.01% (or less), counterfeit 99.99%

Your questions are irrelevant, but my question is relevant. Did you read it or not?

But you probably won't, because my last encounter with you was that you just wanted to argue. If that continues, then I'll ignore you.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Yet more exaggerative slanders typical of P/Cs who have an agenda and don't seek to understand what they are reading.

Actually, they are not. They are totally verified accounts of people genuinely receiving healing miracles. The girl who was bitten by a snake is named Therese. When she got bitten, her mother saw that she was not breathing, so she carried the girl to the nearest Christian missionary for prayer. It took her three hours to get to the missionary. The missionary prayed, and the girl started breathing and recovered with no brain damage. The girl went on to gain a masters degree. The author who related the story actually went to the African village and met Therese and her mother who told him exactly how it happened. This was not a lie, nor an exaggeration. By the way the author is not a Pentecostal. He attends a small Baptist church.

I think that you have been conditioned to believe that any account is exaggerated or a lie by some lunatic Pentecostal, even though the healings have been verified by medical professionals who had diagnosed the medical condition through tests and Xrays, and afterward testified that the condition had entirely disappeared through subsequent Xrays.

There is the account of a woman in a rest home confined to a wheelchair because of a definite medical condition, and who would constantly say, "I wish I could walk again". A young preacher visited, saw the lady in the wheelchair, heard what she said, and said, "In the Name of Jesus get out of that wheel chair and walk!" She immediately got up and walked, and was totally puzzled about how she could actually walk when before she couldn't. The medical condition definitely was not psychosomatic, but real. The others in the rest home were amazed at the miracle.

The problem is not that you can't believe these accounts to be true, but because of your conditioning against the modern manifestation of the gifts, you won't believe that they are genuine and real. I don't think that you would choose to believe if a miracle of healing occurred right before your eyes. You would have to find some reason to believe it was not a genuine healing even if it was verified by medical professionals.

Frankly, it doesn't matter much to me whether you believe that healing miracles happen today or not. That is your personal choice. But when you give teaching to others that healing miracles are not for today, then that is quite another matter, because someone who might have had the faith to believe God for a healing miracle might be robbed of the opportunity by believing your teaching, and remain sick, when the Lord might have healed him.

Miracles of healing are powerful signs that Jesus Christ is alive today, that God's nature is love and compassion. Anyone can say that Jesus Christ is loving and compassionate, but it is just words until the Holy Spirit demonstrates it by miracles of healing and release from demonic oppression.

 

[daninthelionsden]

I go to a Bible church now, and at least 80% of the congregation are genuine Christians. I think I'll stay there. It seems that if you are experiencing a sliver of the Kingdom scattered about, it begs the question are you in the wrong crowd?

I was born into the wrong crowd.

 

[JLB]

What is in circulation in the market: Real money 99.99%, counterfeit 0.01% (or less)

Real money.

 

[JLB]

What is in circulation in the P/C churches: Real miracles 0.01% (or less), counterfeit 99.99%

I don’t know what goes on in all the churches in all the world and neither do you.


We are discussing tongues, and if it is for today.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Your questions are irrelevant, but my question is relevant. Did you read it or not?

My questions are indeed relevant.


If you don’t believe the baptism with the Spirit with the evidence that is seen and heard is for today, then that is your choice.


JLB

 

[tdidymas]

Actually, they are not. They are totally verified accounts of people genuinely receiving healing miracles. The girl who was bitten by a snake is named Therese. When she got bitten, her mother saw that she was not breathing, so she carried the girl to the nearest Christian missionary for prayer. It took her three hours to get to the missionary. The missionary prayed, and the girl started breathing and recovered with no brain damage. The girl went on to gain a masters degree. The author who related the story actually went to the African village and met Therese and her mother who told him exactly how it happened. This was not a lie, nor an exaggeration. By the way the author is not a Pentecostal. He attends a small Baptist church.

I think that you have been conditioned to believe that any account is exaggerated or a lie by some lunatic Pentecostal, even though the healings have been verified by medical professionals who had diagnosed the medical condition through tests and Xrays, and afterward testified that the condition had entirely disappeared through subsequent Xrays.

There is the account of a woman in a rest home confined to a wheelchair because of a definite medical condition, and who would constantly say, "I wish I could walk again". A young preacher visited, saw the lady in the wheelchair, heard what she said, and said, "In the Name of Jesus get out of that wheel chair and walk!" She immediately got up and walked, and was totally puzzled about how she could actually walk when before she couldn't. The medical condition definitely was not psychosomatic, but real. The others in the rest home were amazed at the miracle.

The problem is not that you can't believe these accounts to be true, but because of your conditioning against the modern manifestation of the gifts, you won't believe that they are genuine and real. I don't think that you would choose to believe if a miracle of healing occurred right before your eyes. You would have to find some reason to believe it was not a genuine healing even if it was verified by medical professionals.

Frankly, it doesn't matter much to me whether you believe that healing miracles happen today or not. That is your personal choice. But when you give teaching to others that healing miracles are not for today, then that is quite another matter, because someone who might have had the faith to believe God for a healing miracle might be robbed of the opportunity by believing your teaching, and remain sick, when the Lord might have healed him.

Miracles of healing are powerful signs that Jesus Christ is alive today, that God's nature is love and compassion. Anyone can say that Jesus Christ is loving and compassionate, but it is just words until the Holy Spirit demonstrates it by miracles of healing and release from demonic oppression.

Actually, I was referring to your slanderous statement "Go over there and tell them they are lying!" I've already said that I believe genuine miracles happen in modern times.

 

[tdidymas]

I was born into the wrong crowd.

Ok, I was too. I spent my first 20 years among the P/C crowd, and I too spoke in "tongues" until I woke up and got out of it. Since then, I've been able to grow spiritually in peace, as opposed to constant spiritual warfare, and I have friends who genuinely care about me when I am in need (as they have proven time and again), and I'm willing to do the same for them. It was not like that when I was with the P/Cs, since about the last 10 years I was ostracized and considered a heretic.

A pastor and elder borrowed money and didn't lift a finger to pay it back, although they continued to declare they would pay it back (it was a lot). The elder told me that 3 prophets confirmed his business success that year, but it failed, and I realized I had been swindled, and that he was hiding behind a "God said..." ruse. I lost it all, and it hurt years later when I realized I needed that money when I was in need. That was near the end of my fellowship with that group, and made me realize I was in the wrong crowd, and that they (among others) were taking advantage of my generosity and gullibility. I'm not saying they were all like that, but the ones I mostly encountered were like that. I don't discount what happened, because I learned a lot through it, and I chalk it up to high tuition in the school of hard knocks.

It has been many years since, and only in the past few years I've been willing to discuss the tongues issue. I know how controversial it is, because many of my relatives still believe in it. My study and research on the subject was not only for myself, but also for others who see a discrepancy in the modern practice.

 

[tdidymas]

I don’t know what goes on in all the churches in all the world and neither do you.


We are discussing tongues, and if it is for today.




JLB

Yes, that's the rub, isn't it?

 

[tdidymas]

My questions are indeed relevant.


If you don’t believe the baptism with the Spirit with the evidence that is seen and heard is for today, then that is your choice.


JLB

It's my choice to believe what the Bible says about it, not what P/Cs claim.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Ok, I was too. I spent my first 20 years among the P/C crowd, and I too spoke in "tongues" until I woke up and got out of it. Since then, I've been able to grow spiritually in peace, as opposed to constant spiritual warfare, and I have friends who genuinely care about me when I am in need (as they have proven time and again), and I'm willing to do the same for them. It was not like that when I was with the P/Cs, since about the last 10 years I was ostracized and considered a heretic.

A pastor and elder borrowed money and didn't lift a finger to pay it back, although they continued to declare they would pay it back (it was a lot). The elder told me that 3 prophets confirmed his business success that year, but it failed, and I realized I had been swindled, and that he was hiding behind a "God said..." ruse. I lost it all, and it hurt years later when I realized I needed that money when I was in need. That was near the end of my fellowship with that group, and made me realize I was in the wrong crowd, and that they (among others) were taking advantage of my generosity and gullibility. I'm not saying they were all like that, but the ones I mostly encountered were like that. I don't discount what happened, because I learned a lot through it, and I chalk it up to high tuition in the school of hard knocks.

It has been many years since, and only in the past few years I've been willing to discuss the tongues issue. I know how controversial it is, because many of my relatives still believe in it. My study and research on the subject was not only for myself, but also for others who see a discrepancy in the modern practice.

I was born due to the sin Episcopal Church clergy committed against my mother. She had been groomed, brainwashed, molested, raped, impregnated. It started when she was a teen and continued into her married adulthood. I was born into a hostile step-family. Only surviving because abortion was illegal and attempts against my life by my own parents failed as they took out a large life insurance policy to cash me in. I endured abuse of every type.
I attended many churches of many creeds and saw a little of the Kingdom in each. I can no longer attend church as there is a church/corporate/government bounty on my head to keep my story suppressed. I cannot allow a church to actually assist me as the government would attack their tax exempt status and/or accreditation if they run a school. For their own good, I must refuse help from any church and any Christian. Hopefully, if I make it off disability, I can join a church and enjoy fellowship once again.

 

[PaulChristensen]

I don’t know what goes on in all the churches in all the world and neither do you.


We are discussing tongues, and if it is for today.




JLB

I agree. The question I would ask as well is: If the whole of available knowledge was in the form of a pizza, how big a slice would represent our limited knowledge? I think, by the way he is talking about the Pentecostal movement, that he thinks that his amount of knowledge would be a very large, if not all the pizza, while us mere mortals with have just a very small slice to show how much knowledge we have. The Scripture says that we see through a glass darkly, in other words, through the wrong end of the telescope. Paul said that we know in part, which means that our knowledge consists in just a slice of the pizza.

So it could be quite true that the principles of speaking with tongues in the Holy Spirit could exist in the area of the pizza outside of the slice of knowledge that our friend has, and so he is trying to teach us things he knows nothing about.

Whereas, those who have been taught by the Holy Spirit concerning His gifts, including the use of tongues in prayer and ministry, have had the appropriate knowledge included in their slice of the pizza.

The problem with our friend and people like him is that they believe that their small slice of the knowledge pizza is the total available knowledge given to the church and the believers in it and that those who speak in modern tongues is getting information from a slice from a totally different counterfeit pizza.

Some might call that religious arrogance and spiritual pride.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Actually, I was referring to your slanderous statement "Go over there and tell them they are lying!" I've already said that I believe genuine miracles happen in modern times.

Most people with religious conditioning like yours will happily say that genuine miracles happen in modern times, but if Harry Jones from just down the road from their house says that he has been healed of cancer, they won't believe him unless he can provide absolute proof, and then they would doubt whether he had cancer in the first place.

Also, if a sick person called for the elders of your church to pray the prayer of faith for that person to be healed, would you be expecting the person to be healed on the spot? Or would you be sitting there thinking, "He won't be healed. That sort of things doesn't happen in this church". Perhaps the sick person won't bother to call for the elders, because he knows that their prayers wouldn't be answered because of the general belief that "instant healing doesn't happen in our church". He would be more likely to go down to the local Pentecostal church where he knows that there is a much better chance that God might answer prayer over there seeing that those Pentecostals actually do believe that God does answer prayer for the healing of sick people, and it has a track record of people actually being healed.

 

[tdidymas]

Most people with religious conditioning like yours will happily say that genuine miracles happen in modern times, but if Harry Jones from just down the road from their house says that he has been healed of cancer, they won't believe him unless he can provide absolute proof, and then they would doubt whether he had cancer in the first place.

Also, if a sick person called for the elders of your church to pray the prayer of faith for that person to be healed, would you be expecting the person to be healed on the spot? Or would you be sitting there thinking, "He won't be healed. That sort of things doesn't happen in this church". Perhaps the sick person won't bother to call for the elders, because he knows that their prayers wouldn't be answered because of the general belief that "instant healing doesn't happen in our church". He would be more likely to go down to the local Pentecostal church where he knows that there is a much better chance that God might answer prayer over there seeing that those Pentecostals actually do believe that God does answer prayer for the healing of sick people, and it has a track record of people actually being healed.

Your cynical response doesn't phase me.

 

[tdidymas]

I was born due to the sin Episcopal Church clergy committed against my mother. She had been groomed, brainwashed, molested, raped, impregnated. It started when she was a teen and continued into her married adulthood. I was born into a hostile step-family. Only surviving because abortion was illegal and attempts against my life by my own parents failed as they took out a large life insurance policy to cash me in. I endured abuse of every type.
I attended many churches of many creeds and saw a little of the Kingdom in each. I can no longer attend church as there is a church/corporate/government bounty on my head to keep my story suppressed. I cannot allow a church to actually assist me as the government would attack their tax exempt status and/or accreditation if they run a school. For their own good, I must refuse help from any church and any Christian. Hopefully, if I make it off disability, I can join a church and enjoy fellowship once again.

Sorry for you situation. I wish I could help somehow. Are you in the U.S.? I don't understand how the gov't can deny tax exemption to a church if they help someone.

 

[stovebolts]

I accepted Christ at 13 while incarcerated. However, I felt like something was missing, and my mentor asked me about Baptism. Weeks later I was Baptized and I could feel the Spirit within me.

One evening I was alone and deep in prayer when suddenly I didn’t know what was coming out of my mouth. I kinda knew what I was saying, but it wasn’t English.... it didn’t scare me or anything,actually it was comforting, but at the same time it was odd.

I asked my mentor what happened. You all already know the answer.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Sorry for you situation. I wish I could help somehow. Are you in the U.S.? I don't understand how the gov't can deny tax exemption to a church if they help someone.

You don't want to find out. Your church would either co-operate through intimidation, bribes or threats. You would then see people you thought you knew turn into people you wouldn't believe you ever associated with. We are hoping to emigrate.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Your cynical response doesn't phase me.

Great. Well, that's it then, End of discussion.