Tongues As A Sign For Unbelievers.

[PaulChristensen]

The gifts of the Holy Spirit as described in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 are not "sign" or validation gifts. They are Holy Spirit tools for the Body of Christ. Believers don't need signs or validation. They have already embraced Christ and are filled with the Spirit. So the gifts described are for the strengthening of believers' faith and to glorify the grace of Christ in their lives. The gifts were not provided for Apostolic "signs" to validate their Apostleship. We know that after the last Apostle (Paul) that Apostleship ceased. That is explicitly stated in Scripture, when Paul said that he was the last Apostle. This was because he was the last person to receive a direct visitation by the resurrected Jesus, and to be directly appointed by the resurrected Jesus is a prerequisite qualification for an Apostle of Christ. So the Apostolic "signs" went into history along with them.

But the gifts provided for the Body of Christ were for the ongoing life and ministry of the Christian church. If there were significant Scriptures relating to the cessation of Apostles for Christ, you would think there would be specific Scriptures to signal the cessation of the Body of Christ gifts, but there are none.

It is also interesting that Paul spoke only to the Corinthians concerning tongues, and that was to deal with issues around the misuse of it in services. It is rightly assumed that the other churches didn't have issues with misuse of tongues, so in those churches the gift was being used as it should. In fact, if Paul never had an issue with tongues in the Corinthian church he would never have mentioned the gift, and without his comments about tongues, we wouldn't have any basis that Paul even believed in speaking with tongues!

Concerning prophecy, we know that Old Testament prophecies carried the absolute authority of God, therefore they were recorded for future use. The prophetic teaching of the Apostles also carried the absolute authority of God so that was recorded as New Testament Scripture. But what of all the thousands of prophecies that were also given in the Christian churches? If they carried the same godly authority, you would think that trouble would have been taken to write them down and add them to New Testament Scripture. But Paul was not concerned that the prophecies given in the Corinthian church were never written down, and probably forgotten by the end of the meeting. So those prophecies must have carried a mixture between the Holy Spirit and the thoughts of the people, and that is why every prophecy needed to be evaluated.

So, if a prophecy is started off by "Thus says the Lord", then it should be written down and added to New Testament Scripture, otherwise although it may be an encouraging word to build up the faith of believers, it does not carry the same authority as Holy Spirit inspired Scripture. Incidentally, 99% of Pentecostals and Charismatics believe that. It is only the hypercharismatic lunatic fringe who try to make out that their prophecies carry the absolute authority of God. But, why don't they write them down and add them to their Bibles? Because none of them actually do!

 

[JLB]

We know that after the last Apostle (Paul) that Apostleship ceased.

Here’s who He sent (as apostles) to represent Him and His authority; to make disciples of all nations.


Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 28:16-20


However, He told them to wait, until they had received the Promise of the Father, so they could receive power.


And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5



Who does He send today, to make disciples and to teach them to observe everything He taught ?



And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, Ephesians 4:11-13



Until we all come to the unity of the faith, to the measure and stature of a perfect man, in which we all hold to the same doctrine, there will indeed be teachers and pastors, evangelists, apostles and prophets.




JLB

 

[tdidymas]

The gifts of the Holy Spirit as described in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 are not "sign" or validation gifts. They are Holy Spirit tools for the Body of Christ. Believers don't need signs or validation. They have already embraced Christ and are filled with the Spirit. So the gifts described are for the strengthening of believers' faith and to glorify the grace of Christ in their lives. The gifts were not provided for Apostolic "signs" to validate their Apostleship. We know that after the last Apostle (Paul) that Apostleship ceased. That is explicitly stated in Scripture, when Paul said that he was the last Apostle. This was because he was the last person to receive a direct visitation by the resurrected Jesus, and to be directly appointed by the resurrected Jesus is a prerequisite qualification for an Apostle of Christ. So the Apostolic "signs" went into history along with them.

But the gifts provided for the Body of Christ were for the ongoing life and ministry of the Christian church. If there were significant Scriptures relating to the cessation of Apostles for Christ, you would think there would be specific Scriptures to signal the cessation of the Body of Christ gifts, but there are none.

It is also interesting that Paul spoke only to the Corinthians concerning tongues, and that was to deal with issues around the misuse of it in services. It is rightly assumed that the other churches didn't have issues with misuse of tongues, so in those churches the gift was being used as it should. In fact, if Paul never had an issue with tongues in the Corinthian church he would never have mentioned the gift, and without his comments about tongues, we wouldn't have any basis that Paul even believed in speaking with tongues!

Concerning prophecy, we know that Old Testament prophecies carried the absolute authority of God, therefore they were recorded for future use. The prophetic teaching of the Apostles also carried the absolute authority of God so that was recorded as New Testament Scripture. But what of all the thousands of prophecies that were also given in the Christian churches? If they carried the same godly authority, you would think that trouble would have been taken to write them down and add them to New Testament Scripture. But Paul was not concerned that the prophecies given in the Corinthian church were never written down, and probably forgotten by the end of the meeting. So those prophecies must have carried a mixture between the Holy Spirit and the thoughts of the people, and that is why every prophecy needed to be evaluated.

So, if a prophecy is started off by "Thus says the Lord", then it should be written down and added to New Testament Scripture, otherwise although it may be an encouraging word to build up the faith of believers, it does not carry the same authority as Holy Spirit inspired Scripture. Incidentally, 99% of Pentecostals and Charismatics believe that. It is only the hypercharismatic lunatic fringe who try to make out that their prophecies carry the absolute authority of God. But, why don't they write them down and add them to their Bibles? Because none of them actually do!

I might have agreed with you wholeheartedly, except for the fact that in my 20 years experience with P/Cs, the many times I heard tongues spoken, not once did it have vocabulary and structure to convey meaning. No interpretation given matched the meter of the tongues, was usually referenced in scripture, and had the tone of coming from someone's memory and imagination. Every time it appeared to be a pretention of true spiritual gifts, leading the gullible to think that people doing it were superspiritual people. I saw this same behavior practiced in all the denominational churches I attended, including: AG, UPC, independent Pentecostal, Apostolic, Vineyard, and independent Charismatic. The only consolation was that the leadership in most of these churches administered order, and most fundamental doctrines of Christianity was taught.

The whole issue in this thread is about tongues and its questionable practice. My contention is that modern tongues is not miraculous, but is a human phenomenon, and therefore is counterfeit, not being the tongues of the NT. It would seem like someone would actually post someone speaking in tongues in a church, with the interpretation, if they wanted to edify the universal church about what God is doing, since there is plenty of ways to do that with today's technology. There is nothing sacreligious about video recording someone expressing a manifestation of the Spirit. Supposedly it is done profusely by people who claim to have the gift of healing. So why not the gift of tongues?

But there has yet been a video recording of someone speaking tongues that had vocabulary and language structure to convey any meaning at all. It begs the question, why? Either real tongues is so sparse that the counterfeit crowds it out, or today's tongues really is a 100% failure rate in regard to authentic gifts of the Spirit. Can anyone in this forum find a video of an authentic tongues spoken (a real language), with the interpretation?

 

[PaulChristensen]

Here’s who He sent (as apostles) to represent Him and His authority; to make disciples of all nations.


Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 28:16-20


However, He told them to wait, until they had received the Promise of the Father, so they could receive power.


And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5



Who does He send today, to make disciples and to teach them to observe everything He taught ?



And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, Ephesians 4:11-13



Until we all come to the unity of the faith, to the measure and stature of a perfect man, in which we all hold to the same doctrine, there will indeed be teachers and pastors, evangelists, apostles and prophets.




JLB

Your rendering of the Scripture is quite correct.
However, the Apostles of Christ were a separate role in themselves, and to be one, they would have had to be personally appointed by the direct presence of the resurrected Christ. Paul was the last Apostle to whom Christ appeared personally. Therefore, as he said, he was the last Apostle, and who was appointed "out of time", because he wasn't part of the original 12.

But the apostles whom God has set in the church, is the continuing role for the Body of Christ until He comes again. Although there are similarities between the two roles, church apostles are for strengthening churches, and planting new ones and appointing elders to maintain them. They can preach the Gospel to the lost, but where there are evangelists in the church, the apostles make way for them.

 

[JLB]

Paul was the last Apostle to whom Christ appeared personally.

I disagree.

At best that would be gross presumption.




JLB

 

[JLB]

But the apostles whom God has set in the church, is the continuing role for the Body of Christ until He comes again.

Please clarify what you mean by this.

 

[OzSpen]

Your rendering of the Scripture is quite correct.
However, the Apostles of Christ were a separate role in themselves, and to be one, they would have had to be personally appointed by the direct presence of the resurrected Christ. Paul was the last Apostle to whom Christ appeared personally. Therefore, as he said, he was the last Apostle, and who was appointed "out of time", because he wasn't part of the original 12.

But the apostles whom God has set in the church, is the continuing role for the Body of Christ until He comes again. Although there are similarities between the two roles, church apostles are for strengthening churches, and planting new ones and appointing elders to maintain them. They can preach the Gospel to the lost, but where there are evangelists in the church, the apostles make way for them.

Paul,

Is it your understanding that the apostles mentioned in 1 Cor 12:27-29 are examples of a gift of the continuing ministry of apostles? This is also expounded in Eph 4:11-13,

11 Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. 12 Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ. 13 This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God’s Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ (NLT).​

It is my understanding that the equipping ministry of apostleship will continue to build up the church until the church comes to unity and maturity. I don't think we are there yet.

What is your understanding of the continuing gift of apostleship?

Oz

 

[PaulChristensen]

I disagree.

At best that would be gross presumption.




JLB

How can Jesus appear personally to anyone when He is at the right hand of the Father interceding for us?

I do agree that people have had visions of Jesus. I had one in the form of a figure of light when I was 9 years old, when I was having horrible nightmares of monsters and after that vision, no more monsters. Then, at the age of 21 while being prayed for, I had the same vision, and I was on my face weeping my heart out, and that changed my life. But therse were visions, and not personal visitations.

If anyone had a personal visitation of Jesus, they would be like Paul, struck blind by the brightness of His glory and totally changed for ever. John witnessed the presence of the glorified Jesus in his vision and fell at his feet as if dead. Therefore, if we were confronted by the real presence of Jesus, we wouldn't be able to stand it.

When a group of ministers had a prayer time with Smith Wigglesworth when he came to Wellington NZ in 1922, the intensity of the presence of God was so great that the ministers couldn't stay in the room with him. And that was only a presence!

The truth is that our mortal bodies would not be able to stand a direct personal visitation of Jesus. Direct fellowship with Jesus will take place when our mortality has become immortality and we will be able to see Him face to face in a body like His.

The visions of Jesus that people have had are very much watered down so that they are able to get the message that He is wanting them to have. It is the Holy Spirit showing them a vision of Jesus for a particular reason, and it is a life-changing event.

A group of Jihad terrorists were pursuing a group of Christians in order to kill them. Suddenly a sand storm appeared between the two groups, and a voice from it said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting". As a result, all but one of those terrorists turned to Christ, and they were trying to get the remaining one converted.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Please clarify what you mean by this.

The original Apostles of Christ were appointed by the resurrected Christ Himself. They had a specific role to plant the early Church, such as Paul planting the Corinthian, Thessalonian, Philippian, and Ephesian churches and appointing elders to manage them. They preached the Gospel in unchurched pagan towns and cities, accompanied by signs and wonders.

But once churches were established, God placed apostles and prophets, evangelists and teachers, workers of miracles, gifts of healing, and various types of tongues in them. These apostles didn't have the same status or specific role that the Apostles of Christ had. These are the apostles that exist in the church today.

But as John Calvin said, it doesn't matter whether a person calls himself an apostle, he has to be one. What he is saying is that there is a difference between being called an apostle, and actually being one in reality. We know the criteria and results of the work of the Apostles of Christ, but we don't have a manual for how church apostles perform their ministry, therefore most have made educated guesses, and if we had ten people in a room, we would have ten opinions about who an apostle is and what he does.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Paul,

Is it your understanding that the apostles mentioned in 1 Cor 12:27-29 are examples of a gift of the continuing ministry of apostles? This is also expounded in Eph 4:11-13,

11 Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. 12 Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ. 13 This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God’s Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ (NLT).​

It is my understanding that the equipping ministry of apostleship will continue to build up the church until the church comes to unity and maturity. I don't think we are there yet.

What is your understanding of the continuing gift of apostleship?

Oz

Exactly what you have just said.

 

[JLB]

How can Jesus appear personally to anyone when He is at the right hand of the Father interceding for us?

The same way He appeared to Paul.

 

[JLB]

The original Apostles of Christ were appointed by the resurrected Christ Himself. They had a specific role to plant the early Church, such as Paul planting the Corinthian, Thessalonian, Philippian, and Ephesian churches and appointing elders to manage them.

The whole earth is much larger than that region.

 

[PaulChristensen]

The same way He appeared to Paul.

So, were those whom Jesus appeared to in modern times have the same reaction as Paul I wonder?

And, was the appearance of Jesus similar to Medieval art works of Him? How do these people know it was the real Jesus. We know that Satan can appear as an angel of light to deceive people, so he can appear to people looking like the Jesus depicted in popular art works, you know, with the freshly washed long straight hair and neatly trimmed beard, and the pale complexion of a European.

I heard the story of a old, mature saint of God whom a form of Jesus appeared to him, and he said, "Go away! I will have fellowship with the real Jesus when I get to glory and I will be content to wait until then."

You see, the Scripture says that when we will see Jesus, we will be like Him. Do you reckon that those who claim they have seen Jesus have become like Him? Just sayin'...

 

[PaulChristensen]

The whole earth is much larger than that region.

That's why when the Last Apostle of Christ (The Apostle John) died, apostles of the church continued the work of preaching the gospel with signs following, and planting churches throughout the world.

 

[JLB]

So, were those whom Jesus appeared to in modern times have the same reaction as Paul I wonder?

There are many testimonies out there.


T.L. Osborne comes to mind.

 

[JLB]

That's why when the Last Apostle of Christ (The Apostle John) died, apostles of the church continued the work of preaching the gospel with signs following, and planting churches throughout the world.

If a person is an Apostle, they are an Apostle of Jesus Christ, having been sent by Him; by Hs Spirit.

You seem to be referring to the twelve.


Then there was Paul.


Signs follow believers.

 

[Degas]

Apart from Paul, only two Bible verses refer to speaking strange tongues (Isaiah 28:11) or new tongues (Mark 16:17).
Is it possible that those two verses only meant that Christians would some day speak languages that didn't exist back then, like English, French, Italian, Norwegian, etc., and that Paul misinterpreted those two verses?

 

[tdidymas]

Apart from Paul, only two Bible verses refer to speaking strange tongues (Isaiah 28:11) or new tongues (Mark 16:17).
Is it possible that those two verses only meant that Christians would some day speak languages that didn't exist back then, like English, French, Italian, Norwegian, etc., and that Paul misinterpreted those two verses?

It is not possible that Paul misinterpreted the scripture, because he had the historical event of Acts 2, in which Peter quoted Joel 2:28-29, saying that it was the Holy Spirit, referring to the miraculous languages the apostles were speaking. It was miraculous, because they were speaking languages and dialects they had not learned naturally. So the tongues Paul was referring to was not naturally learned languages.

It is likely that Mark 16:17 refers to miraculous languages, because it also says "they shall take up serpents..." which did happen to Paul (Acts 28:3). Most Bible scholars agree that this Mark was the John Mark who attended Paul in at least two of his journeys, so he would have well known about these events when he wrote his gospel.

It is also true that Isa. 28:11 refers to the languages of the Assyrians, who conquered Northern Israel, and likely the Babylonians who conquered Judah 150 years later. Nevertheless, the apostles, including Paul had the right and authority to deliver a secondary meaning to it, much like Matthew in 2:15 quotes Hos. 11:1 and interprets it to mean Jesus as opposed to Israel.

 

[hawkman]

A group of Jihad terrorists were pursuing a group of Christians in order to kill them. Suddenly a sand storm appeared between the two groups, and a voice from it said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting". As a result, all but one of those terrorists turned to Christ, and they were trying to get the remaining one converted.

I wonder if the sand storm was in the form of a whirlwind ?

But once churches were established, God placed apostles and prophets, evangelists and teachers, workers of miracles, gifts of healing, and various types of tongues in them. These apostles didn't have the same status or specific role that the Apostles of Christ had. These are the apostles that exist in the church today.

But as John Calvin said, it doesn't matter whether a person calls himself an apostle, he has to be one. What he is saying is that there is a difference between being called an apostle, and actually being one in reality. We know the criteria and results of the work of the Apostles of Christ, but we don't have a manual for how church apostles perform their ministry, therefore most have made educated guesses, and if we had ten people in a room, we would have ten opinions about who an apostle is and what he does.

THIS ! The first Apostles/Disciples then we have the other apostles that are at work today in the church . This is the way I understand it too ! Good post

PaulChristensen !​

​

​

 

[OzSpen]

If a person is an Apostle, they are an Apostle of Jesus Christ, having been sent by Him; by Hs Spirit.

You seem to be referring to the twelve.


Then there was Paul.


Signs follow believers.

Were the apostles of Eph 4:11-12 (ESV) the apostles of Jesus Christ or were they continuing apostles like those who are here today?