Tongues As A Sign For Unbelievers.

[daninthelionsden]

Finally, I see some nitty-gritty from you, something you seemed to avoid before. Ok, suppose I take your word for it. For 20 years I heard meaningless babble from P/Cs (myself included), and everything posted on youtube with someone speaking modern tongues is meaningless babble, as I have described. If anything actually happened like you say, it is buried under a mountain of rubbish, so that no "outsider" believes it's real, and no "outsider" can trust what you say because of P/C hype and counterfeit gifts. Again, I say it looks like cult activity. I have a very hard time believing what you say. I don't call you a liar, just deceived in a culture of deception and hot air claims.

At the very least I would have to see it for myself and examine it carefully, because I can't just blindly believe what you say. The Christianity I know is a religion of historical facts, not one of empty claims. The miracles I see in scripture are obvious, not the secretive and false claims of P/Cs today. I know that God performs miraculous healings today. But the obvious fraud propagated by P/Cs tells me there is an abject ignorance among them.

And besides, I know that I cannot "prove to you" that modern P/Cs speak meaningless babble, because I acknowledge that you have a bias and a vested interest in denying it. However, I'd like to give you a link to a good read, in case you're interested:

Amazon.com

This is a 30-year investigation by a linguistic professor at a university. He writes sympathetically about modern tongues, saying it has religious and social value. Yet, he acknowledges that it is not miraculous, nor conveys any meaning, and shows the evidence by which he comes to such conclusion. It is IMO a very objective analysis.

But to be sure, I use that source as merely a confirmation of what I know by the testimony of scripture and the voice of God to me. So, unless you are willing to give me clear evidence (such as a link to a video of yourself or someone else speaking in tongues that you think is a real language, or other such evidence), then perhaps this is where our paths diverge.

There is a lot of deception going on in a lot of "churches" claiming gifts, but I'll tell you right now, witnessing even one legitimate manifestation is worth putting up with a thousand fakes.

 

[daninthelionsden]

If you believe in "seers" who can see into the hearts of people, so be it. If you believe that people have a special gift to be able to distinguish between what is true and what is counterfeit, the best of British luck to you.

Hypocrites can join a church, live a moral life, be kind to animals, replicate all the gifts and fruit of the Spirit, talk Christian talk, even become deacons, elders and pastors in churches. But what we can't see is their inner intentions. Most of the time we see other Christians in church on Sundays or during weeknight meetings when they put on their Christian appearance for the benefit of other Christians, but when they get home to their own families, and go to work, they put off their Christian appearance and behave just like anyone else in the world. Hypocrites can be angels at church among their Christian peers, but devils everywhere else where other Christians cannot see them.

For example, there are pedophile priests who are "saints" in front of the people, but perverted sexual abusers of young boys behind the scenes. My brother, when he was young, knew that one of the local Methodist youth worker was a stalker of young pre-teen girls and there was at least one event where he exposed himself to a group of young girls. When I was in the Air Force as an 18 year old, the officer in charge of our recruit training was a good looking outwardly successful officer, but unbenown to most of us, he was grooming some of our group for homosexual nooky. He was finally caught and it was a shock to us that at least four of our group came forward and testified against him that he made homosexual advances toward them. He kept the perverted side of him carefully hidden from the majority of us.

One of the elders of my 1970s Charismatic church appeared to be a very upright and faithful leader, until he was caught in a homosexual encounter in a local public toilet. Even though we had "seers" in our fellowship, no one knew what he was doing behind the scenes. So much for their spiritual "discernment". Not even his wife knew, and she was the closest to him.

Concerning tongues, I can be driving down the motorway praying in tongues under my breath, without anyone else in the car knowing. Because genuine tongues bubbles up from the spirit and one can speak it without making a single sound. Uninformed people wouldn't know that. I have been in a Charismatic church where many people were praying in tongues in support of people who went up for prayer at the end of the service, but I never heard any muttering at all.

But I can understand those whose worship of God is exclusively church-based, who believe that worship and praise to God doesn't happen outside of church services, or they sit like wooden Indians during their church services while the minister drones on from the front, and just spend time in their duty-bound "quiet time" at home spending five minutes praying their shopping list to God then not knowing what to say next and so they spend the rest of their "quiet-time" in a state of sleepy suspended animation until their 15 or 30 minutes is up and they have done their duty.

Actually, there are many more sleeping through boring sermons in cessationist churches than there are tongues speakers who disrupt Charismatic meetings.

Not everyone has the gift of discernment. Just like not everyone has the gift of healing or prophecy or word of knowledge etc. Each has or will have a gift allotted to them that best serves the Kingdom. This is done so not to divide us but to bring us together so each utilizes his/her gift/s to benefit the body.

 

[daninthelionsden]

The reality is that our knowledge of the things of God are limited by us looking through the wrong end of the telescope (ie, through a glass darkly). Our knowledge is only partial.

Also, like it or not, we were conditioned as young believers through what our mentors taught us. For the first 12 years of my Christian walk I was in Pentecostal churches, so all my mentors were Pentecostal. In the first two years, I became as Pentecostal as one could get - passionate, loud, preaching to everyone, and generally making an pest of myself. Then I realised that although I was doing all the religious stuff that I was taught, I didn't know God personally. So, I started seeking the Lord earnestly to come to a point where I could meet Him and know Him, otherwise, I might as well give it all away, because without knowing God Himself, all the other religious stuff, including the Pentecostal, was pointless, to me anyway.

So, one April night at 11pm, I went out into the middle of a golf course, looked up to the starry sky, told God that He was in earshot of my voice, and that I had come out to introduce myself to Him. I told Him that if I didn't know Him that night, I would give it all away because there was no use being religious if I didn't know Him. Then I said, "I am Paul and you are God and I'm very glad to meet you." Immediately I felt all lit up inside like Times Square, and I knew that Jesus was real. This was not emotional because in the Southern Hemisphere April is late Autumn and at 11pm it can be fairly cool. It was like one moment God was not real to me, and then the next moment He was. Then I started getting clear thoughts that I had not received before. The first thought was, "We have been waiting for this for a long time." I asked the Lord, "Why?" The answer came back, "We have been waiting for you to stop trying to do the religious stuff and to come to Me directly." I then asked, "How do I become a real Christian?" He said, "Walk before Me and be perfect, but just be yourself." I said, "I can't do that. People will see all my faults, sins and shortcomings!" He said, "If I don't like you, I will change you." This was the first time in my Christian walk that I was having a two-way conversation with God. It changed my whole view of what Christian life was all about. I asked the Lord about visions and dreams, and He told me that I didn't need them because I had His presence to guide me. I learned afterward that it is the indwelling Holy Spirit who was saying these things to me and making Jesus real to me. I asked Him how I am knowing that He is speaking to me. He said that He speaks to my spirit, and then my mind interprets what is in my spirit. It is a bit like compiling BASIC into machine language in a computer in reverse, like the computer receiving input as machine language and converting it into BASIC so the programmer can understand the programming.

I then asked the Lord what was happening to me, and He answered, "You are having fellowship with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ."

As I have matured, I have asked the Lord questions, or discussed an issue with Him, and although I have never memorized Scripture, the exact correct reference or verse has come back to me to either correct or confirm what I have been discussing with Him. It has also been remarkable that when I have gone to my favourite Christian second hand bookshop and chosen books at random, I have found that the books I have chosen have greatly increased my wisdom. A Christian friend introduced me to Puritan literature, and I found the Holy Spirit speaking to me in every page, giving me a solid foundation in the Faith. There were times when the manager of the Christian bookshop would email me with a book recommendation, and when I have brought that book home, the Lord has spoken to me through it in a remarkable way.

All this happened after I left the AOG church in 1968, and was involved with a small group of friends worshiping in a rented "converted" upstairs coffee bar in central Wellington NZ. A year later I fellowshipped with a suburban Nazarene church, then after that I moved cities, ending up in an independent mission church with a very strict Pentecostal Holiness pastor who really sorted me out on many issues, and taught me about the true ministry of the Holy Spirit. He firmly believed that when the Holy Spirit was really present, people would get on their faces, repent, and have a strong desire for personal holiness. He had no time for the popular Pentecostalism of the time. He believed that praying in tongues was totally sacred, and he demonstrated God healing the sick in his ministry with a number of verified healings to his credit. He believed that if a person was to have a ministry in the Spirit he had to be a man of the Word and of prayer. When he gave me correction, he would get out his big black Bible and show me the Scriptures where I had gone wrong and how to put things right. That was three years of real discipleship toward walking in the Spirit in holiness as a requirement for everything else. That was the discipleship that stood the test of time for me after 50 years, when all my other Pentecostal mentors' teaching fell by the wayside and passed into the mists of history.

Therefore I am just as evangelical as you are, and just as committed to Christ and Him crucified. My basic theology is Puritan Reformed, and sort of Calvinist (I pick the meat from the bones with him), and with the sure confidence that the 1 Corinthians 12 gifts of the Spirit are still available to the Body of Christ today.

My actual experience is that I don't see the gifts actually manifested in my present little Union church with six elderly ladies and one other man. Nor did I see them manifested in the 23 years I was an elder of an Auckland Presbyterian church. But my belief in the continuation of the spiritual gifts is not based on my personal experience but on the fact that 1 Corinthians 12 list of gifts was never meant to be temporary, but are in place until the end of the church age.

I know that there is much misuse of the gifts in the lunatic fringe that pretends to be Pentecostal, but these groups do not represent and majority of Pentecostals and Charismatics who are like me, desiring to see the gifts manifested and sad that we don't see them as often as we would like.

So, if you have had similar experience of meeting and knowing God personally, and being discipled by sound and faithful men and women of God throughout your Christian walk, then we would have a lot in common.

I believe as this world comes to an end, we will see a return of a massive outpouring of the Spirit and gifts. This will be out of necessity as it was in the infancy in the Church so it will be in its final days before the Second Coming.

 

[PaulChristensen]

I believe as this world comes to an end, we will see a return of a massive outpouring of the Spirit and gifts. This will be out of necessity as it was in the infancy in the Church so it will be in its final days before the Second Coming.

True. Cessationists will have us believe that there will be a great increase of false signs and wonders through the influence of the AntiChrist. But those signs and wonders will draw people away from Christ to putting trust in the AntiChrist.

The true signs and wonders have the effect they always have had, to confirm people's faith in Christ, and to glorify the grace of Christ, through multitudes turning to Christ, and being released from demonic influence.

The Scripture says that the devil is not divided against himself. If he is divided against himself, his kingdom will not stand. The last thing the devil wants is for multitudes to turn to Christ and be set free from demonic influence.

As we can see in these days, where false claims of signs and wonders do more to draw attention to the false teacher and mega-church personality.

But there is a multitude of genuine healing miracles around the world that have caused whole families and communities to turn to Christ and confirm their faith in Him. Many of these miracles have happened through the ministry of relatively unknown pastors, elders and teachers in churches and groups that never get recorded on Youtube. Many miracles are happening in India with pastors whose names one cannot pronounce, and where the people are so poor they don't own a video camera and computer to be able to get a recording on Youtube. As a result Hindu pagans are turning to Christ. Those who assert that these miracles are from the devil are accusing Satan of shooting himself in the foot, which is a ridiculous as it sounds. There is no way that the devil is going to do anything that would cause people to turn to Christ.

 

[JLB]

It's a denomination.

Ok. UPC

Yes, it's the denomination in which people think they are speaking in other languages they haven't learned.

There are many denominations that have people in them that speak in tongues.



How many years before a new born baby fully develops the ability to communicate fluently in a language?




JLB

 

[JLB]

I never said tongues is not for modern times, even though it is reasonable to assume it. My contention is that modern tongues is not the same thing as Biblical tongues, and that it is not miraculous. I call people Pentecostals because that's what they call themselves.

Do you believe “biblical tongues“ is for today?

 

[andy pandy]

1 Cor. 14:22, "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not."

Yet, Pentecostal tongue speakers do so unto each other in their churches and worship. Their learning institutions even teach them to do so. Paul spoke the Word of God specifying tongues are spoken for Unbelievers. This means the Pentecostals reviewing the tongues from others are themselves Unbelievers.

The truth of God's Word is so powerful, it is demonstrated even when it is violated. When Pentecostals speak tongues to each other, it is being spoken to other Unbelieving Pentecostals.

This happens because of an incorrect interpretation of scripture and which leads to incorrect belief. The Pentecostals believe what they do because their denominational teaching supersedes what the bible teaches.

The verse you quoted is better interpreted as languages, not tongues. On the day of pentecost they spoke in languages not tongues as in everyone heard them speak in their own language. When you speak to unbelievers you speak in languages. I have read of many stories where someone has spoken in a language that they have not learnt and someone in the congregation who was an unbeleiver terstified that the person spoke perfectly in their mother tongue.

Paul said he would like everyone to speak in tongues and that means a spiritual language which is different to a language of an unbeliever in the meeting. He said do not forbid the speaking in tongues but rather than you prophesy. Which means you can do both as the Spirit gives you utterance. Like all the gifts (charisma) they are the province of the Holy Spirit to hand out so if he hasn't given you a specific gift, leave well alone.

The gifts are not given for your benefit. They are given to benefit others.

 

[tdidymas]

Tongues is just one tool in the Holy Spirit toolbox. Reformed or Holiness Charismatics are no different from Reformed or Holiness evangelicals, except that the former believe 1 Corinthians 12 in its entirety is written for all churches for the duration of the Church Age. The Apostles, including Paul believed that Christ was going to come in their own life times, so his view when he wrote 1 Corinthians 13:8 was that the second coming of Christ was going to cause tongues and prophecy to pass away, because he had no idea that the Church Age was going to continue for another 2000 years or so.

After I left the Pentecostal movement in 1978, I have fellowshipped with non-Charismatic churches ever since, so I no longer identify myself as a Pentecostal. I am a Christian believer who accepts the whole of 1 Corinthians 12 as being relevant for today's churches, instead of parts of it. Some churches believe the reference in 1 Corinthians 12 about the different roles in the Body of Christ, but reject the list of the gifts. Not logical. Either we believe the whole chapter or none of it. Also, within the list of gifts, there is "teacher", but some erase all the other gifts and leave "teacher". Doesn't make sense. If one is going to reject the gifts, then all of the gifts need to go, including that of teacher. But the ministry of teacher is still retained and generally accepted by all Evangelical churches. I believe it is because of the blind spot concerning the gifts of the Spirit that the totally senseless notion that some of the list is still relevant to churches and other bits are not. To my commonsense thinking it is either all or nothing. If 1 Corinthians is written for all believers everywhere as Paul said in chapter 1, then the whole book without any erasures applies to the whole church while it continues to exist, until the end of the age.

Even the most passionate cessationists fully acknowledge that there is not one Scripture that supports the cessationist doctrine, but they also maintain that there are no Scriptures to deny it either. So, by their own admission, they are basing the doctrine on Scriptural silence. They believe that the gifts were relevant in Paul's time, but not in ours, because they see that the gifts did decline after the 4th Century, (although in the Eastern Orthodox churches they continued on until the 12th Century A.D.) Also, there are many testimonies throughout church history of miraculous healing, including a close friend of Augustine, Augustine himself, 70 others over two years in his churches, and many others in Puritan England, John Wesley's ministry and right through to the present time. Right up until 1900 all the recorded and verified healings were of non-Pentecostals. So, it is clear that the gift of healing did not decline at all. In relatively modern times, in India, there have been many instances of healing miracles, also in Brazil, Africa and right around the world. Anyone who says that all the multitude of testimonies are lies are just living in Cloud Cuckoo Land.

Miraculous healings don't prove that the gift of healing has continued. The miraculous gifts listed in 1 Cor. 12 were given to individuals, to exercise at their discretion, obviously at the leading of the Spirit. When those people laid their hands on people to be healed, every one was healed, every time, as testified in Acts. Subsequent healings of people over the centuries were done by God because of the prayers of the saints, not because of a gift of healing to individuals.

Gifts have changed with time, such as missionaries as opposed to apostles. By Paul's language to the Corinthian church, those who declared themselves to be apostles (besides the 12) were false. By the destruction of Jerusalem after most of the apostles were killed, the sign gifts had mostly passed away, as testified by Heb. 2:4 which says that signs and wonders attested the word of the apostles and those who were eyewitnesses of Christ. I don't think you can effectively discount that. Therefore, knowledgeable cessationists have a valid point. If the miraculous signs had continued to the next generation, there would have been much writing about it by the early church fathers, but in fact there is almost nothing about it. But one of the councils condemned the teachings and practices of the Montanists who did the same things P/Cs are doing today.

So, the fact that there have been sparse miracles, mostly healings, over the centuries doesn't prove that the sign gifts of the Spirit have continued in operation. IMO you'll need a lot more evidence of it than just an opinion or speculation, and I just don't think you can come up with it, since many scholars and apologists have yet to do that.

 

[tdidymas]

There is a lot of deception going on in a lot of "churches" claiming gifts, but I'll tell you right now, witnessing even one legitimate manifestation is worth putting up with a thousand fakes.

Let's compare what you say here to the parable of the wheat and tares. According to your logic, there are a thousand fakes in the P/C churches to one legitimate Christian. Perhaps many, if not most of Christians view the P/C movement in this way, don't you think? The implication is that the P/C movement is not of God, because if there is one true manifestation of God in the P/C churches, there is also one in non-P/C churches. So then what's the reason for all the deception and hype, except to deceive people into going after supernatural power instead of relationship with Christ?

 

[tdidymas]

Ok. UPC


There are many denominations that have people in them that speak in tongues.



How many years before a new born baby fully develops the ability to communicate fluently in a language?




JLB

Did you see my transliteration of the supposed mature pastor of his tongue? Did that look like a language with vocabulary and structure, or did that look like baby talk? I think the latter.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Miraculous healings don't prove that the gift of healing has continued. The miraculous gifts listed in 1 Cor. 12 were given to individuals, to exercise at their discretion, obviously at the leading of the Spirit. When those people laid their hands on people to be healed, every one was healed, every time, as testified in Acts. Subsequent healings of people over the centuries were done by God because of the prayers of the saints, not because of a gift of healing to individuals.

Gifts have changed with time, such as missionaries as opposed to apostles. By Paul's language to the Corinthian church, those who declared themselves to be apostles (besides the 12) were false. By the destruction of Jerusalem after most of the apostles were killed, the sign gifts had mostly passed away, as testified by Heb. 2:4 which says that signs and wonders attested the word of the apostles and those who were eyewitnesses of Christ. I don't think you can effectively discount that. Therefore, knowledgeable cessationists have a valid point. If the miraculous signs had continued to the next generation, there would have been much writing about it by the early church fathers, but in fact there is almost nothing about it. But one of the councils condemned the teachings and practices of the Montanists who did the same things P/Cs are doing today.

So, the fact that there have been sparse miracles, mostly healings, over the centuries doesn't prove that the sign gifts of the Spirit have continued in operation. IMO you'll need a lot more evidence of it than just an opinion or speculation, and I just don't think you can come up with it, since many scholars and apologists have yet to do that.

Is a knowledgeable cessationist the same as a knowledgeable atheist or a knowledgeable evolutionist? Scholars and scoffers want proof. What they really need is faith. Just because the "I didn't see it so it didn't happen" people have an arrogance that prevents witness to the gifts......the "I saw it and experienced it" people will never be able to convince them even if true (I am one of those "saw it and experienced it").

 

[daninthelionsden]

So then what's the reason for all the deception and hype, except to deceive people into going after supernatural power instead of relationship with Christ?

Human nature/pride/envy/jealousy/spiritual immaturity......wanting to be special. Counterfeits abound.

 

[tdidymas]

Do you believe “biblical tongues“ is for today?

I've yet to see any, although I've had encounters with modern tongues since 1959. But since Paul says it [Biblical tongues] is a sign for unbelievers, I think it could go either way, depending on how God wanted to use it. On the other hand, miraculous sign gifts were for proving the truth of the gospel preached by the apostles, per Heb. 2:4, and for that reason it would not be necessary for today because the gospel has been well-proven. Yet, I say, anything is possible.

But did you read my past posts showing how modern P/C tongues is not Biblical?

 

[tdidymas]

Is a knowledgeable cessationist the same as a knowledgeable atheist or a knowledgeable evolutionist? Scholars and scoffers want proof. What they really need is faith. Just because the "I didn't see it so it didn't happen" people have an arrogance that prevents witness to the gifts......the "I saw it and experienced it" people will never be able to convince them even if true (I am one of those "saw it and experienced it").

It seems like you're asking for blind faith based on your assertion. Yet, I also experienced modern P/C tongues and found it to be counterfeit. Have you read my past posts that show modern P/C tongues is not the same as Biblical tongues?

 

[daninthelionsden]

It seems like you're asking for blind faith based on your assertion. Yet, I also experienced modern P/C tongues and found it to be counterfeit. Have you read my past posts that show modern P/C tongues is not the same as Biblical tongues?

You can find that even if you are looking at a cesspool, you can still see glimmers and slivers of light reflecting off of it from the sun. You can see slivers and glimmers of the Holy Spirit and Gifts in any Church, no matter how bad. There is a remnant in each church and scattered about. Look for that remnant and not the masses. If a church leader shows pride then he has taken over that church by his own audacity. Many people admire simple audacity and flock to those types. Even though the leader and the masses of that church are lost "blind leading blind" you can still find that little sliver of the Kingdom scattered about. Look for those few in every church who exhibit patience/humility/perseverance/a serving spirit etc.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Ok. UPC


There are many denominations that have people in them that speak in tongues.



How many years before a new born baby fully develops the ability to communicate fluently in a language?




JLB

I am a committed Presbyterian and I pray in a language I have never learned. Haven't been a member of a Pentecostal church since 1978!

 

[PaulChristensen]

Miraculous healings don't prove that the gift of healing has continued. The miraculous gifts listed in 1 Cor. 12 were given to individuals, to exercise at their discretion, obviously at the leading of the Spirit. When those people laid their hands on people to be healed, every one was healed, every time, as testified in Acts. Subsequent healings of people over the centuries were done by God because of the prayers of the saints, not because of a gift of healing to individuals.

Gifts have changed with time, such as missionaries as opposed to apostles. By Paul's language to the Corinthian church, those who declared themselves to be apostles (besides the 12) were false. By the destruction of Jerusalem after most of the apostles were killed, the sign gifts had mostly passed away, as testified by Heb. 2:4 which says that signs and wonders attested the word of the apostles and those who were eyewitnesses of Christ. I don't think you can effectively discount that. Therefore, knowledgeable cessationists have a valid point. If the miraculous signs had continued to the next generation, there would have been much writing about it by the early church fathers, but in fact there is almost nothing about it. But one of the councils condemned the teachings and practices of the Montanists who did the same things P/Cs are doing today.

So, the fact that there have been sparse miracles, mostly healings, over the centuries doesn't prove that the sign gifts of the Spirit have continued in operation. IMO you'll need a lot more evidence of it than just an opinion or speculation, and I just don't think you can come up with it, since many scholars and apologists have yet to do that.

Tell all the Africans and Indian Christians and non-Christians (who subsequently came to Christ), who received miracles of healing of all kinds of medical conditions, including cancer, goiters, etc, and the young woman who was bitten by a snake and was dead for three hours, brought back to life through prayer, no brain injury and now has a masters degree. Go over there and tell them they are lying!

 

[OzSpen]

1 Cor. 14:22, "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not."

Yet, Pentecostal tongue speakers do so unto each other in their churches and worship. Their learning institutions even teach them to do so. Paul spoke the Word of God specifying tongues are spoken for Unbelievers. This means the Pentecostals reviewing the tongues from others are themselves Unbelievers.

The truth of God's Word is so powerful, it is demonstrated even when it is violated. When Pentecostals speak tongues to each other, it is being spoken to other Unbelieving Pentecostals.

Jacob62,

When you fail to mention other verses in I Cor 14 that deal with tongues you come up with this myopic view of tongues.

If 1 Cor 14:2-4 were in your Bible you'd have a different view.

Oz

 

[JLB]

Did you see my transliteration of the supposed mature pastor of his tongue? Did that look like a language with vocabulary and structure, or did that look like baby talk? I think the latter.

Brother please answer my question, if you can.


How many years before a new born baby fully develops the ability to communicate fluently in a language?

2?
5?
10?
15?


How many years does it take someone to learn to speak a new language fluently?


Im going to give you some help here, since you seem to be struggling to answer honestly.


The answer is: It depends on how much they use their new language, to develop all the nuances of that particular dialect. If they were taught incorrectly then it may be years before they realize they were pronouncing certain words or syllables incorrectly.





We know that there are some people who may indeed operate in a counterfeit tongue, however this doesn’t disprove that there is a real spiritual tongue, rather it proves it.

Your argument seems to be akin in trying to convince everyone that because there is counterfeit money, then there is no such thing as real money.




JLB

 

[PaulChristensen]

Jacob62,

When you fail to mention other verses in I Cor 14 that deal with tongues you come up with this myopic view of tongues.

If 1 Cor 14:2-4 were in your Bible you'd have a different view.

Oz

The trouble is that those who love quoting the "sign for unbelievers" verse never display the sign for themselves, and all they can offer unbelievers is three hymns and a man's wisdom sermon in their churches. So where is the sign for unbelievers in their churches? Nowhere.

The purpose of the gifts of the Spirit as a sign is to show the sign of God's nature of love and compassion for people, and to show that Jesus Christ is alive and active in the church today and that Gospel of Christ is true. Without those gifts, that evidence cannot be shown. Just having three hymns, a sermon, and a cup of tea and biscuits afterward just shows that people go home full of tea and biscuits instead of the Holy Spirit. Also, Paul says to pursue love. Well, that goes out the window when evangelical so-called believers spew out scorn on their Charismatic brothers and sisters in Christ, calling them deluded, and sometimes of the devil. How does that fit into Paul's instruction, inspired by the Holy Spirit, to pursue love? I don't think some of these people know who Jesus really is! They may be serving another Jesus who supports the total lack of love toward other members of the Body of Christ. If they are serving another Jesus, do you reckon they are even saved? Something to seriously consider.