Tongues, initial evidence of one having the Holy Spirit

[FightingAtheism]

Imagican

On a NUBER of occasions I witnessed those under the influence of hallucinogens 'speaking' in what 'appeared to be', different 'languages'. On EACH occasion, when confronted about WHAT they were doing, those that were doing it got a 'blank' look on their faces and denied that the events took place.

Back in Russia, KGB used to imitate tongues and went into churches and destroyed churches from the inside. I guess you know how it works, destroying churches from the inside. There are a lot of false pastors that pervert the gospel or show them the wrong example.

If a KGB can imatate tongues, then this wont be a problem to a demon. This is why there is a gift of 'discerning of spirits'.

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
(1Co.12:10)

Follow me here. The Baptist DON'T speak in tongues. I mean MAIN STREAM Baptist. The Methodists DON'T speak in tongues. The Catholics DON'T speak in tongues. ONLY a very very small and NEW group actually believe, teach and practice this.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
(Mt.7:13)

1) If you would always look at the majority, then this is what the Bible writes. 2) Your statistics are wrong, the Bible proves that this is not a new group.

Question for those that profess a belief and practice of tongues: WHY is it ONLY a 'gift' to those groups that TEACH and PRACTICE it? How is it that the Spirit has been UNABLE to bring about utterance to those in OTHER denominations?

Because they ask for the Holy Spirit.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
(Jas.1:6)

22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
(Mt.21:22)

And folks, I find THIS idea to be the MOST rediculous possible. For God wants EVERYONE to KNOW Him. That some will chose to NEVER get to know Him, that does NOT take away from His desire. Now, wouldn't it stand to reason, that IF there were those that were TRULY seeking God, that IF tongues existed today as they have in the past, that God would send The Spirit to SHOW those that are 'like myself' that this gift does indeed exist and is still able to offer edification of The Church? When, in fact, I have YET to witness tongues being spoken WITH an interpreter. YES, I have been to Pentacostal groups where a GROUP of women will, at one point in a meeting, flop on the ground and start mumbling, or SHOUTING OUT, in an indistinguishable gibberish, (that by the way, does NOT sound 'like a language AT ALL but some sort of mindless blubbering), but NEVER with an interpreter. I have witnessed Pastors of these type churches mumble in tongues between lines of their message. But I have yet to even have these do so WITH an interpreter. And ALL of this points to a DIFFERENT direction than that we have been offered up in scripture.

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
(Mt.7:7)

I have provided many verses, and now it's your choice.

 

[Dave Slayer]

Guess what? I can speak in tongues now! I never felf this good before!

this is what I spoke, I feel the Holy Spirit asking someone to interpret it for me.

"allaa panglay ramma tamm moosa roosaa kelebda lolla kollobda reckif sheckif baba abba gala torofo".

 

[FightingAtheism]

"allaa panglay ramma tamm moosa roosaa kelebda lolla kollobda reckif sheckif baba abba gala torofo".

Are you serious or is it the sense of humor you have?

 

[Dave Slayer]

"allaa panglay ramma tamm moosa roosaa kelebda lolla kollobda reckif sheckif baba abba gala torofo".

Are you serious or is it the sense of humor you have?

I'd like an interpretation so I can understand what I said. Perhaps I made it up, not sure. It just felt right.

 

[Imagican]

Majority has little to do with my understanding. What we have is NO evidence of ANY speaking in tongues from about a couple of hundred years after Christ's death until about a hundred years ago. This is pretty clearly showing that perhaps that as the NEED for tongues diminished, so TOO the 'gift'.

When we consider that tongues are NOT for 'them that believe, but for them that 'believe NOT' then we can CLEARLY see that the tongues offered up were the unknown languages that were HEARD upon Pentacost. These 'tongues' were NOT gibberish. They were ACTUAL languages and all it takes to understand this is to READ what is offered. SOME didn't understand because the language that they heard was NOT their OWN. But others DID understand and not ONLY in their own language, but in the actual dialect of the region from which they came.

Unknown tongues were NOT gibberish. There is NO PLACE in the Bible that offers such. There IS NO 'voice of angels' that IS 'tongues'. Paul was simply offering an expression like this: Let's say that I could perform the miracles of Christ, if I DID so without charity it would mean NOTHING. This is EXACTLY what Paul meant when he spoke of 'the voice of angels'. And further evidence is that 'VOICE' is NOT the same as 'TONGUES'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[FightingAtheism]

[quote="Dave Slayer":1l5pc06d]"allaa panglay ramma tamm moosa roosaa kelebda lolla kollobda reckif sheckif baba abba gala torofo".

Are you serious or is it the sense of humor you have?

I'd like an interpretation so I can understand what I said. Perhaps I made it up, not sure. It just felt right.[/quote:1l5pc06d]

You just haven't tasted it. It's not just tongues, it's what's behind it, the Holy Spirit. When you pray in tongues, your spirit charges. With a human language, there is not enough words to express the feelings, you just have to taste it.

 

[FightingAtheism]

Majority has little to do with my understanding. What we have is NO evidence of ANY speaking in tongues from about a couple of hundred years after Christ's death until about a hundred years ago. This is pretty clearly showing that perhaps that as the NEED for tongues diminished, so TOO the 'gift'.

Couple hundred years ago? Where'd you get your statistics? You know where I got my statistics? From the Bible, Paul was talking about speaking with tongues. Or maybe you're talking about the Charismatic movement, because I know that it started recently. Although Charismatic and Pentecostal are very alike in belief, don't confuse them.

Unknown tongues were NOT gibberish. There is NO PLACE in the Bible that offers such. There IS NO 'voice of angels' that IS 'tongues'. Paul was simply offering an expression like this: Let's say that I could perform the miracles of Christ, if I DID so without charity it would mean NOTHING. This is EXACTLY what Paul meant when he spoke of 'the voice of angels'. And further evidence is that 'VOICE' is NOT the same as 'TONGUES'.

Perhaps you didn't read my posts, I have provided an ample amount of verses. Because the Chinese language is unknown to me, it will sound gibberish, when in fact it is not. Same with tongues.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
(1Co.14:2)

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
(1Co.14:14,15)

(Although the word "unknown" might of been placed by the translators, the context is showing that it is "unknown". )

God bless.

 

[FightingAtheism]

Bible study of 1 Cor. 14: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=35963

 

[Dave Slayer]

FightingAtheism,

Are you saying that unless a person doesn't speak in tongues, he doesn't have the Holy Ghost? Wasn't Pentecost a one time event and not something that is repeated? I don't see any similarities between the tongues at Pentecost and today's tongues. I always see people speaking in tongues to edify themselves but never an entire assembly of believers (or unbelievers for that matter).

1 Corinthians 14:22 (KJV)
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

How are unbelievers going to recognize tongues as a sign if they are kept to a private prayer language? Paul also says that he would rather have us propesy, yet I rarely see that happening. Everyone seems to jump on the gun to speak in tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:5 (KJV)
I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying

It says it is better to prohesy than to speak in tongues but I rarely see people doing this. My guess is because tongues is easier to fake. Anyone can jibber jabber some mumbo jumbo and say it is from the Holy Spirit and people are forced to believe it is from the Holy Spirit, even if it's not. The person speaking in tongues might even be led to believe it was from the Holy Spirit, even if it was not. An interpretation can be given and people would also be forced into believing that. With a real language, it cannot be faked.

 

[FightingAtheism]

Dave Slayer,

Are you saying that unless a person doesn't speak in tongues, he doesn't have the Holy Ghost?

Correct.

Wasn't Pentecost a one time event and not something that is repeated?

The event, yes. But people receiving the Holy Spirit, no.

1 Corinthians 14:22 (KJV)
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

How are unbelievers going to recognize tongues as a sign if they are kept to a private prayer language? Paul also says that he would rather have us propesy, yet I rarely see that happening. Everyone seems to jump on the gun to speak in tongues.

They are a sign when someone interprets them.

Paul also says that he would rather have us propesy, yet I rarely see that happening. Everyone seems to jump on the gun to speak in tongues

Do you know what prophesy is ment to be in this chapter? Because prophesy can be to predict or it can be to preach. According to this chapter, prophesy in this chapter is to preach.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men [to] edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
(1Co.14:3)


Prophesy happens all the time. Please note, Paul was not against praying with an unknown tongue, he was against people speaking UNTO MEN with an unknown tongue when there was no interpreter.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater [is] he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, EXCEPT HE INTERPRET, that the church may receive edifying. (1Co.14:5)

For the church to receive edification, prophesy isn't better then speaking with tongues when there's an interpreter. (Once again, please note that Paul was not against praying with an unknown tongue, he was against people speaking unto men with an unknown tongue when there was no interpreter. )

It says it is better to prohesy than to speak in tongues but I rarely see people doing this. My guess is because tongues is easier to fake. Anyone can jibber jabber some mumbo jumbo and say it is from the Holy Spirit and people are forced to believe it is from the Holy Spirit, even if it's not. The person speaking in tongues might even be led to believe it was from the Holy Spirit, even if it was not. An interpretation can be given and people would also be forced into believing that. With a real language, it cannot be faked.

That's why there's the gift of discerning spirits.

 

[Dave Slayer]

Is speaking in tongues the ONLY evidence one needs to prove he has the Holy Ghost? Paul seemed to make it pretty clear that not all spoke with tongues, so can one have the Holy Ghost and not speak in tongues? Aren't there other evidences of the Holy Ghost? For example, can one have the Holy Ghost and prophesy but not speak in tongues?

 

[follower of Christ]

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (1Co 13:8-12)

WHEN tongues cease, so shall prophecies fail...its a package deal.
This all happens when the perfect has come, when we know as we are known, when we see 'face to face'...

Paul also says that we arent to forbid speaking in tongues,

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order. (1Co 14:39-40)

so I dont see evidence that they have ceased, but they clearly were and ARE for a sign for those who need to SEE evidence of some sort.

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1Co 14:20-22)

They were a sign to the Jews, to Peter and to others, but thats all tongues really are...a sign gift for those who NEED to SEE to BELIEVE.

Paul also says this just prior to that last quote;

Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
(1Co 14:20)

So my guess is that Paul would be telling a LOT of tongues pushers today to stop being children/immature but to be mature in their understanding as to what tongues was/is for.

 

[FightingAtheism]

Is speaking in tongues the ONLY evidence one needs to prove he has the Holy Ghost? Paul seemed to make it pretty clear that not all spoke with tongues, so can one have the Holy Ghost and not speak in tongues? Aren't there other evidences of the Holy Ghost? For example, can one have the Holy Ghost and prophesy but not speak in tongues?

One cannot have the gift of prophesy without the ability to speak with tongues.

2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
(1Co.14:2)

14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
(1Co.14:14,15)

Paul is very clear the speaking with an unknown tongue is speaking in the Holy Spirit. How can you have the Holy Spirit and don't have the ability to speak in the Holy Spirit?

Paul seemed to make it pretty clear that not all spoke with tongues, so can one have the Holy Ghost and not speak in tongues?

You cannot have the Holy Spirit without the ability to speak with tongues. Paul never said that not all speak with tongues:

"Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?" -1 Corinthians 12:30

There's a big misinterpretation of the verse. In this chapter, you notice that Paul is talking about the 'divers kinds' of tongues, meaning 'not the usual' kind of tongues. The usual kind of tongues is a language no men can understand nor interpret. However, the 'different kinds' of tongues are the type of tongues that can be interpreted.

I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: -1Co.14:18

They all spoke with tongues. However, if my conclusion wouldn't be correct, then why would Paul tell them that tongues is not for everyone if they all spoke with tongues?

 

[Dave Slayer]

Guess I don't have the Holy Spirit, but I have Jesus!

 

[FightingAtheism]

Follower of Christ, for some parts I agree with you.

[quote:34l3ux9l]In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1Co 14:20-22)

They were a sign to the Jews, to Peter and to others, but thats all tongues really are...a sign gift for those who NEED to SEE to BELIEVE.[/quote:34l3ux9l]

It is a sign, but it's not just a sign.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
(1Co.14:2)

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
(1Co.14:14,15)

Paul is very clear that for he that prays in an unknown tongue prays in the Spirit. At this moment he might be praying for someone or something that he doesn't know about (speaketh mysteries), this is because the Spirit makes intercession for him, he is speaking with an unknown tongue. Paul also writes that he that prays in an unknown tongue is edifying himself (v4). By praying with an unknown tongue, the speaker is charging himself; he is being filled with the Holy Spirit.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
(1Co.14:4)

[quote:34l3ux9l]Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. (1Co 14:20)

So my guess is that Paul would be telling a LOT of tongues pushers today to stop being children/immature but to be mature in their understanding as to what tongues was/is for.[/quote:34l3ux9l]

I don't quite understand of what you mean by that.

 

[Dave Slayer]

I have been saved for 13 years and have gotten by just fine without speaking in tongues. I have Jesus, I am saved, I am going to be with God when I leave this place, I don't need tongues. I allready have one and I speak with it everyday. :D

 

[Dave Slayer]

If we can be saved but not have the Holy Spirit, what is this referring to?

Romans 8:9 (KJV)
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Is there a difference between the "Holy Spirit" and the "Spirit of Christ"?

 

[FightingAtheism]

If we can be saved but not have the Holy Spirit, what is this referring to?

Romans 8:9 (KJV)
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Is there a difference between the "Holy Spirit" and the "Spirit of Christ"?

I have never claimed that, that's why I have made this post so that you can believe in the true word of God and ask Him for the Holy Spirit.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].
(Lk.12:47)

Don't try to make it as if I am damning you to hell, God is your judge, not me.

 

[Paidion]

Get this, keep SILENCE IF there is NO interpreter.

We are so bound by rules, even Biblical rules. However, God Himself is not bound by them.

Here is a true story my sister experienced many years ago in the largest Pentecostal Church in Winnipeg. A brother stood to his feet and began speaking in tongues. After a while he ceased. Then the pastor asked, "Is there an intepreter?" ------ silence---- silence----silence.

"All right, Brother," the pastor said. "You are out of order. Sit down."

The man sat down, and the meeting proceeded. Hymns were sung. The pastor gave the message. The collection was taken, and the meeting was over.

Immediately a man of Chinese origin came up to the pastor and asked, "Who was that man back there speaking in Cantonese?"

"Huh? What? Who?" ---- Then suddenly the pastor knew what was going on. The man who had spoken "in tongues" was was still in the building and he was called for further conversation. He had unwittingly, under inspiration, given the gospel in the Cantonese language. The man who had heard the gospel in his own native language, became a disciple of Christ that night.

Later, the pastor apologized to the whole congregation, "I was wrong. Terribly wrong. The Holy Spirit spoke through our brother, and I ignorantly told him he was out of order!"

 

[follower of Christ]

You cannot have the Holy Spirit without the ability to speak with tongues.

Complete fallacious nonsense.
you can keep your cult, friend, *I* dont need sign gifts to prove anything...

Paul never said that not all speak with tongues:

actually thats EXACTLY Pauls intent..

"Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?" -1 Corinthians 12:30

There's a big misinterpretation of the verse.

Hardly.
It is EXACTLY Pauls intent as that is how Paul writes in MANY areas of scripture...asking a question with an obvious answer. The OBVIOUS answer given the context from which the question is asked is 'NO'.

Paul telling the Corinthians who were out of control that he is glad that he speaks in tongues more than them all is meaningless as they were PUSHING tongues, therefore they were, as a group, ALL speaking in tongues...or so they most likely believed....probably the same ramblings Ive been listening to for years in charismatic churches that Ive visited.

I fing it quite humorous that you insist that we dont have the Spirit without tongues given the fact that MOST of the Christians I know who DONT speak in tongues very much exhibit TRUE fruits of salvation while MOST of the folks I know personally who DO and HAVE spoke in tongues DONT exhibit the fruits in any continual way. For some reason most of the tongues pushers Ive met in my life have ended up falling away in very dramatic ways and some of them have turned into something 10 times worse than they were before they came to Christ...a few of them even in adultery after leaving their spouses and all sorts of other sexual sins, embezzling from their own churches, drunkeness, etc.
Over the course of my walk the folks Ive met who have NEVER spoke in tongues have been much more consistent in their own walks and in showing fruits of the Spirit.