Tongues, initial evidence of one having the Holy Spirit

[follower of Christ]

Get this, keep SILENCE IF there is NO interpreter.

We are so bound by rules, even Biblical rules. However, God Himself is not bound by them.

Paul was a pretty intelligent guy.
I personally believe the rules he gave are a 'test' of sorts to make it so tongues pushers wouldnt speak UNLESS it was by inspiration.

Who knows BEFORE the fact if there will be an interpreter if they speak in tongues ? No one would.
ONLY God would know if He had someone in the group to speak in tongues and someone else ready to interpret.
So by telling them not to speak in tongue UNLESS there is an interpreter Paul leaves them all being silent since the fakers wouldnt know if there would be an interpreter or not after they spoke in tongues.

God can break His own rules for sure, however I dont believe that God would inspire Paul to write these rules and then walk all over them...that would be teaching the Corinthians the very disruptiveness Paul was trying to get control over.

 

[follower of Christ]

Follower of Christ, for some parts I agree with you.

[quote:18taimpj]In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1Co 14:20-22)

They were a sign to the Jews, to Peter and to others, but thats all tongues really are...a sign gift for those who NEED to SEE to BELIEVE.

It is a sign, but it's not just a sign.[/quote:18taimpj]
Actually thats precisely what is for when one understands the origins and purpose for tongues.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
(1Co.14:2)

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
(1Co.14:14,15)

Paul is very clear that for he that prays in an unknown tongue prays in the Spirit. At this moment he might be praying for someone or something that he doesn't know about (speaketh mysteries), this is because the Spirit makes intercession for him, he is speaking with an unknown tongue. Paul also writes that he that prays in an unknown tongue is edifying himself (v4). By praying with an unknown tongue, the speaker is charging himself; he is being filled with the Holy Spirit.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
(1Co.14:4)

Paul is also very clear that tongues IS for a sign for those who do not believe...does Paul have a split personality here ? Is he contradicting himself ?
Pauls words above are simply to show that tongues is unfruitful because we cannot understand them. Which is precisely why we are to keep them silent in the church.
Those who speak in tongues edify themselves...which in the body is simply selfishness. Better to have a gift in the church that edifies the GROUP.

I dont forbid tongues except where Paul restricts them.
I love the stories some have, but there are RULES for tongues in the church and they ought to be followed so we have order in the church....otherwise Paul gave instruction for nothing.

I don't quite understand of what you mean by that.

Just what I said


For those who push tongues, ask yourself this. Why is it that other than Acts in a couple places taht the only real mention of tongues in the NT is to a church who was out of control with tongues and were also tongues pushers ? Why is there so much RESTRICTION put on tongues and VERY little in trying to encourage tongues in the churches ?
All those letters by Paul and others and other than 1 Corinthians the NT is pretty much silent on the topic.
Pretty odd since some claim that tongues are so important in the church...kwim ?
Excuses can be made but facts and evidence speak louder than all the excuses in the world...

 

[FightingAtheism]

Once again, Paul WAS NOT against praying with an unknown tongue, he was against people speaking in an unknown tongue UNTO MEN when there were no interpreter.

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
(1Co.14:28)

The pattern when tongues are for the purpose of interpreting, not for the purpose of praying.

27 If any man speak in an [unknown] tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
(1Co.14:27,28)

Pauls words above are simply to show that tongues is unfruitful because we cannot understand them. Which is precisely why we are to keep them silent in the church.

They are unfruitful when you speak with tongues unto men when there is no interpreter.

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
(1Co.14:28)

Those who speak in tongues edify themselves...which in the body is simply selfishness. Better to have a gift in the church that edifies the GROUP.

Could you please explain of what is so selfishness about praying?

For those who push tongues, ask yourself this. Why is it that other than Acts in a couple places taht the only real mention of tongues in the NT is to a church who was out of control with tongues and were also tongues pushers ? Why is there so much RESTRICTION put on tongues and VERY little in trying to encourage tongues in the churches ?
All those letters by Paul and others and other than 1 Corinthians the NT is pretty much silent on the topic.
Pretty odd since some claim that tongues are so important in the church...kwim ?
Excuses can be made but facts and evidence speak louder than all the excuses in the world...

If you would just understand 1 Corinthians 14, it would all make sense:

In this chapter Paul is given the Corinthians the correct pattern of speaking with tongues. The Corinthians, as new Christians, were misusing the ability to speak with tongues. As we know, tongues cannot be understood, so the Corinthians were speaking with tongues unto men when there was no interpreter. So because of this, Paul told them that when there's no interpreter, let him speak unto God (v28). Basically, Paul is telling them that the church wont receive edification when you speak in an unknown tongue unto men, because no men understands him (v2). In this case, for the whole church to receive edification, Paul wants them to prophesy (v5), or at least have an interpreter.

(Please keep in mind that Paul was not against praying with tongues, he was against people speaking with tongues unto men when there's no interpreter.)

 

[Paidion]

Well, I don't believe that tongues is necessarily the initial evidence of having the Holy Spirit. When those who had put Christ to death were smitten by Peter's words and asked, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Peter responded, "Repent and be baptized every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forsaking of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:8

That act is the baptism in the Spirit, but there are many fillings thereafter --- fillings for power to do God's work.

I am not a "Pentecostal", but I had Pentecostal relatives. My aunt was a itinerant Pentecostal minister. Once when she was substituting in a church in Thunder Bay, Ontario, I was visiting her, and went to her church with her. During that meeting, a woman spoke in the Greek language. Everyone else thought she was simply speaking in tongues, a common practice in that church.

I am not familiar with spoken Greek, but having studied Hellenistic Greek for a number of years, I recognized some of it. I remember that she used the phrase "legei ho kurios" rather frequently. This means "The Lord says" or "Thus says the Lord". When she had finished, she herself interpreted. I was listening for the English equivalent, and sure enough "Thus says the Lord" was spoke a number of times. I was very excited, and when I went to my aunt's house afterward, I told her about it. "Well, I'm sure Mrs. ---- doesn't know GREEK!" she said, but she seemed to take it in stride as if it were the most normal thing in the world. But I was astonished! I wished that I had had a tape recorder so that I could listen to it and analyze it.

 

[FightingAtheism]

Paidon, I have the right to believe you or or don't believe you. I don't believe that tongues is a gift used to preach in a foreign language, although a miracle like that could happen and happened in the past.

2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
(1Co.14:2)

14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
(1Co.14:14,15)

Tongues is used as a private prayer language that edifies the speaker; builds up the speaker, charges up the spirit of the speaker. But it can also be used in public so that a person with the gift of interpreting tongues can interpret.

 

[Dave Slayer]

But it can also be used in public so that a person with the gift of interpreting tongues can interpret.

And yet I rarely see this occur.

 

[Cornelius]

And yet I rarely see this occur.

I suppose it depends on where you go, does it not ?

 

[FightingAtheism]

But it can also be used in public so that a person with the gift of interpreting tongues can interpret.

And yet I rarely see this occur.

Depends what church you go to.

 

[cyberjosh]

Hello FightingAtheism,

Finally I can get around to discussing this a little with you. Sometime later I'll tell you of an experience I had after a sincere discussion I had with a roommate of mine who had a similar opinion that unless you do not speak in tongues that you have not been baptized in the Holy Spirit. I've written an entire paper on what the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is and when it occurs if you would like to read it. Just give me your e-mail in a Private Message (PM) if you do.

Thankyou for the response, cybershark5886.

Glad I can discuss this with you.

The Holy Spirit is proved by speaking in tongues. Tongues is not the Holy Spirit itself, it's part of the Holy Spirit, just as the words you are uttering.

To be sure, no one can utter things in tongues unless the Spirit is in them, but I believe that it is a distinct gift given only to some. In that case it is a evidence, but not a required one. But I will expand on that view as we progress with the discussion.

The verse (1 Corinthians 12:13) does not claim that we receive the Holy Spirit the moment we repent, and confess him with our mouth.
...
If that was so, then the Bible clearly contradicts itself:


They had accepted Jesus Christ, they were baptised, but they had not recieved the Holy Ghost!

Oh absolutely the Scripture does says that we receive the Spirit upon believing, there is no other foundation for being born again or living the Christian life apart from the Spirit. The Scriptures are abundant on this point. You are hard pressed to find even a Pentecostal who will say that every Christian does not receive the Spirit immediately (because only through the "Spirit of Adoption" are we made sons of God - heirs with Christ - and born again), whereas they say later you have a "second" experience where you are "Baptized in the Holy Spirit" where you will speak in tongues, etc. Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5). I have many more Scriptures I can give you to build a case for the necessity of the Spirit for salvation, and that it is only through the Spirit that we have the power (Greek: dunamis) to live the Christian life, but I want to see if you first agree on the essential of salvation here before I proceed.

As for your example from Acts, remember that every doctrine must be proved by a volume of witnesses, not just one verse. As the Bible says, "Every fact is to be confirmed by the testimony of two or three witnesses" (2 Corinthians 13:1), and the same is good practice for Biblical doctrine. In Acts we see this transitional point, particularly with the Samaritans, in which the Apostles came to confirm the Samaritans in the faith by laying on of hands, but in fact with the Gentiles at Cornelius' house we see the exact opposite sequence of events. They were not even baptized and they received the Spirit, "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message" (Acts 10:44), only after that undeniable evidence of the Spirit falling on them did they get water baptized (which of course is not necessary for salvation). Neither did they receive the laying on of hands to receive the Spirit as did the Samaritans - it came immediately upon belief in the Gospel. These accounts to not contradict one another but show the diversity in ways the Spirit was moving at this time, whatever those reasons may have been. Some have suggested that the Apostles' presence was key at this time, but that is another discussion.

At another time Paul met some men who had been water baptized by John but had not heard of Jesus, thus were not saved, and Paul asks them an important and interesting question,"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" (Acts 19:2). Then they responded, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit" (Acts 19:2) which is an astonishing response, and clues Paul in that they had not been saved by faith in Christ, and he subsequently discovers they have only heard the preparatory preaching of John - thus had not come to heard of the Savior Jesus Christ. But it also importantly shows that Paul expected the receiving of the Holy Spirit upon belief. Remember that Christ promised the Spirit unconditionally to all who believe, "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me" (John 15:26), "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth (John 16:13), and also "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you" (John 14:15-20). The Spirit is in all who believe through faith in Christ, it is by that and that only that we receive eternal life. The Bible is very clear, "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His" (Romans 8:9).

Christ also said, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.' But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified" (John 7:38, 39). The Spirit was to be given to all who believed, and was the source of that that eternal life in Christ, those "living waters" through faith in Christ.

But back to Paul in Acts now. Paul seeing that they had not so much as even heard of the Spirit asked them "Into what then were you baptized?" (Acts 19:3), because only the Baptism into the Spirit accomplishes salvation, not baptism into water. When Paul said, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all" (Ephesians 4:4-6), he refers to Baptism of the Spirit (the one true, saving baptism) and the unity through one body and one Spirit that all Christians share in Christ. That's why Paul said, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13). The Baptism of the Spirit was necessary for these men in Acts 19, not more water baptism.

Then Paul preached the Gospel to them, water baptized them again (once baptized by John) this time through profession of faith in Christ, and then laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit (although we know hands laying, though done for these men and the Samaritans as well is not necessary either, because the disciples on Pentecost and also the Gentiles at Cornelius' house were hit by the power of the Spirit coming down directly upon them), and as we are told, "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied" (Acts 19:5, 6) and as we see they also prophesied being given another gift of the Holy Spirit as well as tongues.

The fact is, outside of certain instances in Acts were things happened in what we might consider irregular order (and in many cases they happened different each time - which leaves us a diversity of witness of how God saved people) the doctrinal matters of salvation and the Holy Spirit in the Epistles and the the Gospels are clear that every believer receives the Spirit upon believing and that, "if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His" (Romans 8:9). Whether they always walk in the filling of the Holy Spirit is another matter, and is mostly what Pentecostals refer to when they mean the "second baptism" of the Holy Spirit. But as I contend in the paper that I wrote the Baptism of the Spirit is the same as regeneration in the Spirit (being born again - saved).

This may all take a little time to digest and read through though, so take your time and feel free to respond point by point if you want to.

"Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?" -1 Corinthians 12:30

There's a big misinterpretation of the verse. In this chapter, you notice that Paul is talking about the 'different'(v10) kind of tongues, meaning 'not the usual' kind of tongues. The usual kind of tongues is a language no men can understand nor interpret. However, the 'different' kinds of tongues are the type of tongues that can be interpreted.

I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: -1Co.14:18

They all spoke with tongues. However, if my conclusion wouldn't be correct, then why would Paul tell them that tongues is not for everyone if they all spoke with tongues?

They certainly could have all spoken in tongues there at Corinth (which is why it was a particular problem for them in specific - thus why he wrote them to set the record straight), but by no means does this mean all believers speak in tongues, and also that doesn't warrant assumptions that Paul meant to distinguish tongues into two categories. And there is no doctrinal evidence for any form of tongues being uninterpretable (which is different from saying that it is unintelligible to a human). If the Spirit gives utterance then the Spirit can certainly give interpretation. There simply is no biblical evidence for two categories of tongues like that, other than the possible distinction of "tongues of angels" and "tongues of men" both of which are the same gift just different forms of it.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[FightingAtheism]

Thanks for the reply CyberShark. I was a little confused from your post, as if you're a little off from the topic. But this is okey, I'll try my best to give an answer.

Oh absolutely the Scripture does says that we receive the Spirit upon believing, there is no other foundation for being born again or living the Christian life apart from the Spirit.

Yes, we ask for the Holy Spirit in our prayers, and absolutely YES, we have to believe.

22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
(Mt.21:22)

13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
(Lk.11:13)

We believe in Jesus Christ, we believe in his word that we're supposed to ask for the Holy Spirit, and we ask for the Holy Spirit upon believing that we will receive it, and we receive it.

I have many more Scriptures I can give you to build a case for the necessity of the Spirit for salvation, and that it is only through the Spirit that we have the power (Greek: dunamis) to live the Christian life, but I want to see if you first agree on the essential of salvation here before I proceed.

I do agree that the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation.

In Acts we see this transitional point, particularly with the Samaritans, in which the Apostles came to confirm the Samaritans in the faith by laying on of hands, but in fact with the Gentiles at Cornelius' house we see the exact opposite sequence of events. They were not even baptized and they received the Spirit, "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message" (Acts 10:44), only after that undeniable evidence of the Spirit falling on them did they get water baptized (which of course is not necessary for salvation). Neither did they receive the laying on of hands to receive the Spirit as did the Samaritans - it came immediately upon belief in the Gospel. These accounts to not contradict one another but show the diversity in ways the Spirit was moving at this time, whatever those reasons may have been. Some have suggested that the Apostles' presence was key at this time, but that is another discussion.

I'm not here to debate whether there is sequence of events (I don't believe there is) nor whether baptism of water is necessary for salvation. I have only brought these passages up to prove that the baptism of the Holy Spirit does not come emmediately upon belief in Jesus Christ, although it may, but it is still considered a different experience. This passage will prove so:

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
(Ac.8:14-18)

They did believe in Jesus Christ, they were baptised, but they hadn't yet received the Holy Ghost. The conclusion is very clear.

Christ also said, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.' But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified" (John 7:38, 39). The Spirit was to be given to all who believed, and was the source of that that eternal life in Christ, those "living waters" through faith in Christ.

If you believe in Jesus Christ, you would also believe in his word. His word was to ask for the Holy Spirit, and if we ask with faith, of course we will receive it.

But back to Paul in Acts now. Paul seeing that they had not so much as even heard of the Spirit asked them "Into what then were you baptized?" (Acts 19:3), because only the Baptism into the Spirit accomplishes salvation, not baptism into water. When Paul said, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all" (Ephesians 4:4-6), he refers to Baptism of the Spirit (the one true, saving baptism) and the unity through one body and one Spirit that all Christians share in Christ. That's why Paul said, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13). The Baptism of the Spirit was necessary for these men in Acts 19, not more water baptism.

Then Paul preached the Gospel to them, water baptized them again (once baptized by John) this time through profession of faith in Christ, and then laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit (although we know hands laying, though done for these men and the Samaritans as well is not necessary either, because the disciples on Pentecost and also the Gentiles at Cornelius' house were hit by the power of the Spirit coming down directly upon them), and as we are told, "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied" (Acts 19:5, 6) and as we see they also prophesied being given another gift of the Holy Spirit as well as tongues.

I'm here only to debate of whether or not tongues is the required evidence for one to have the Holy Spirit.

and as we see they also prophesied being given another gift of the Holy Spirit as well as tongues.

Prophesy can mean to foretell, and it can also mean to preach.

They certainly could have all spoken in tongues there at Corinth (which is why it was a particular problem for them in specific - thus why he wrote them to set the record straight), but by no means does this mean all believers speak in tongues

That they all spoke with tongues proves that tongues is really the required evidence of one having the Holy Spirit and it also supports Jesus' message:

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(Mk.16:17)

Otherwise the Bible contradicts:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
(1Co.12:11)

and also that doesn't warrant assumptions that Paul meant to distinguish tongues into two categories.

Here, it is called 'diversities of tongues' -Paul does not confuse the gift of tongues and tongues (baptism of the Holy Spirit).

And there is no doctrinal evidence for any form of tongues being uninterpretable (which is different from saying that it is unintelligible to a human).

From personal experience, there is evidence.

 

[Dave Slayer]

If Mark 16:17 means that tongues will follow everyone that believes, then how can it be that one can believe, be saved, but not speak in tongues? I believe yet I do not speak in tongues.

 

[FightingAtheism]

If Mark 16:17 means that tongues will follow everyone that believes, then how can it be that one can believe, be saved, but not speak in tongues? I believe yet I do not speak in tongues.

If you believe in Him, you will also believe in His word. His word says that we should ask for the Holy Spirit.

13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
(Lk.11:13)

Apparently, we Pentecostals, ask for the Holy Spirit and receive it with the evidence of speaking with tongues.

 

[Dave Slayer]

If Mark 16:17 means that tongues will follow everyone that believes, then how can it be that one can believe, be saved, but not speak in tongues? I believe yet I do not speak in tongues.

If you believe in Him, you will also believe in His word. His word says that we should ask for the Holy Spirit.

13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
(Lk.11:13)

Apparently, we Pentecostals, ask for the Holy Spirit and receive it with the evidence of speaking with tongues.

I can certainly understand how Pentecostals ask for the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. I know because the majority of my Church experience was in a Pentecostal Church. However, I believe them to be in error when they say that we need to ask for the Holy Spirit because the Bible says all believers have the Holy Spirit. However, not all speak in tongues. I will show you.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (NIV)
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one bodyâ€â€whether Jews or Greeks, slave or freeâ€â€and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Romans 8:9 (NIV)
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Ephesians 1:13–14 (NIV)
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance

As you can see from these verses, all believers have the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:9 specifically states that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ do not belong to Christ. The Spirit of Christ must be the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 says all believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13 says we are all baptized by one Spirit into the body of Christ. Surely the "one Spirit" is the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38 says that anyone who repents and is baptized in the name of Jesus Christ will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

A few verses later, Acts 2:41 says that 3,000 gladly received Peter's word and they were saved, yet it does not say they (the 3,000) spoke in tongues. Obviously the 3,000 received the Holy Spirit because Acts 2:38 says they would.

Acts 2:41 (KJV)
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

 

[FightingAtheism]

Dave Slayer, thankyou for your response.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (NIV)
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one bodyâ€â€whether Jews or Greeks, slave or freeâ€â€and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Romans 8:9 (NIV)
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

I don't see how this verse relates to someone receiving the Holy Spirit automatically once he believes in Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:13–14 (NIV)
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance

Do you know about this story? As Paul met them, asking them if they had received the Holy Spirit upon believing?:

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.
(Ac.19:1-7)

Some time later, Paul wrote a letter to those who already had the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Please keep in mind, the passages you have provided are letters to the specific people, it will not always be true to you as it was not to Samaritans:

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
(Ac.8:14-18)

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

A few verses later, Acts 2:41 says that 3,000 gladly received Peter's word and they were saved, yet it does not say they (the 3,000) spoke in tongues. Obviously the 3,000 received the Holy Spirit because Acts 2:38 says they would.

Of course you will receive the Holy Spirit upon believing in Jesus' words, which teach that we should ask for the Holy Spirit, and if we ask with faith, we will receive it.

A few verses later, Acts 2:41 says that 3,000 gladly received Peter's word and they were saved, yet it does not say they (the 3,000) spoke in tongues. Obviously the 3,000 received the Holy Spirit because Acts 2:38 says they would.

Acts 2:41 (KJV)
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

The fact that it was not mentioned does not mean that it couldn't of happen. I believe that the five out six verses mentions a sign and four out of six verses mentions that the sign was speaking with tongues, plus other verses is convincing.

On Reinhard Bonnke's revivals, people also receive the Holy Spirit upon beleiving in Jesus Christ. Does not mean that it will always be like that. It is just two experiences in the same hour.
(http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... nnke&hl=en)

God bless.

 

[awaken]

Why is speaking in tongues the one supernatural sign which always seems to happen in the New Testament when people were baptized with the Holy Spirit? Why is speaking in tongues different from any other supernatural sign?

First, let's take a look at what the Bible says Christians are to do. As a spiritual act of worship we are to offer our bodies as living sacrifices to God:
"Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship." (Romans 12:1)

"Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness." (Romans 6:13)

So the Bible tells us to offer the parts of our bodies to God. However, the Bible also says that there is one specific part of our body which we cannot tame, our tongue:

"Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell. All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and creatures of the sea are being tamed and have been tamed by man, but no man can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison." (James 3:5-8)

Since the Bible says that we cannot tame our tongue, this is the only member of our body which we are incapable of fully offering to God as an instrument of righteousness. It is the Holy Spirit Himself who uses our tongue for righteousness when He utters mysteries directly to God through our mouth:

"For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit [or "by the Spirit," according to the NIV]." (1 Corinthians 14:2)

When we have been baptized (immersed, overwhelmed, saturated) in the living water of the Holy Spirit, this event is demonstrated outwardly when the Holy Spirit prays directly to the Father using our tongue and bypassing our mind:

"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind." (1 Corinthians 14:14-15)

In the above passage, the apostle Paul said that when he prayed in a tongue he was praying with his spirit (by the Holy Spirit) but not with his mind (because his mind was unfruitful). Paul was doing the speaking, but it was the Holy Spirit who was giving him the words to utter.

 

[Dave Slayer]

1Cr 14:14 (KJV)
For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Why would I want understanding that is unfruitful? Look at the next verse.

1Cr 14:15 (KJV)
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

I will pray with what? The understanding. Praying in a tongue that results in unfruitful understanding is not praying with the understanding. I want to understand what I am praying. I want fruitful understanding, not unfruitful understanding. And this is why Paul said "I will pray with the understanding".

Also notice it says "my spirit prayeth". That is not the same as the Holy Spirit. Everytime the Holy Spirit is mentioned in the scriptures, it begins with a capital "S". So, "my spirit" is not the same as the "Holy Spirit".

I could very well be wrong in my exegesis of the scriptures that deal with tongues and the Holy Spirit, but I am not convinced in the exegesis by Pentecostals concerning this subject.

Let me say that throughout my 13 years of being a Christian, I have experienced much joy, more than I could ever ask for. I have never spoken in tongues and I never really had the desire to. Some people speak in tongues and some do not. Sometimes I get the impression that a believer who doesn't speak in tongues is not as spiritual or as close to God as believers who do speak in tongues. This is partly why I left the Pentecostal Church. I felt "less" because I couldn't do something. Perhaps this isn't the case in all Pentecostal Churches, but the two or three I have been to seemed to make me feel lesser of a Christian because I don't speak in tongues, Mostly the United Pentecostal Denomination. The Assemblies of God wasn't as bad, though it still harmed me some.

 

[FightingAtheism]

Dave Slayer

Praying in an unknown tongue is needed for a Christian.

2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
(1Co.14:2)

4 He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. (1Co.14:4)

He edifies himself, he builds up himself, he charges up the Spirit inside him -this is all needed for Spiritual growth. You know for what other purpose the ability of praying with tongues is needed? "Howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries" at this moment he can be praying for someone or something he doesn't know about. I don't know about you, but it seems logical to me to come to the conclusion that tongues is needed for every believer.

Jude 20-21 "But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit." NIV

Eph 6:18 8 "And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints." NIV

 

[Dave Slayer]

Dave Slayer

Praying in an unknown tongue is needed for a Christian.

2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
(1Co.14:2)

4 He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. (1Co.14:4)

He edifies himself, he builds up himself, he charges up the Spirit inside him -this is all needed for Spiritual growth. You know for what other purpose the ability of praying with tongues is needed? "Howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries" at this moment he can be praying for someone or something he doesn't know about. I don't know about you, but it seems logical to me to come to the conclusion that tongues is needed for every believer.

Jude 20-21 "But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit." NIV

Eph 6:18 8 "And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints." NIV

Yes, I am aware of the Pentecostal understanding of these verses. However, I differ with Pentecostals on their interpretation. I am going to close my end of the debate. Thanks to everyone for the discussion and may God Bless all of you.

Dave

 

[lovely]

Fighting Atheism,

It seems like you are just simply saying that if one does not have the gift of tongues then they are lost.

 

[Paidion]

When did the gospel of Christ begin?

THERE ONLY ONE GOSPEL.
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. As it is written in Isaiah the prophet, "Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who shall prepare your way;
the voice of one crying in the desert: Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straightâ€â€"
John the baptizer appeared in the desert, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forsaking of sins. Mark 1:1-4

So the gospel of Christ began with the preaching of John the Baptizer. His message, "Believe and be baptized. The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." Is baptism necessary? Yes. It's like signing an agreement to clinch a deal. If you want to buy a house, but refuse to sign the agreement, you won't get the house.

THERE ONLY ONE GOSPEL.
Jesus preached the same gospel. "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, " and "Come follow me." He also baptized His followers (or rather His disciples did).

THERE ONLY ONE GOSPEL.
Peter preached the same gospel.

The Israelites
Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified." Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forsaking of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:36-38

The same requirements! Believe and be baptized! However, there was one thing added. That special day of Pentecost has passed, the day in which the Holy Spirit was given. From that point on, when a person repented and was baptized, he received the Holy Spirit. This was the normal order. [1] Repent, [2] Be baptized [3] Receive the Holy Spirit.

Now why was that order not always followed in the book of Acts? Let's look at two groups of people who did not receive the Holy Spirit when they were baptized and why.

John the Baptizer's Disciples
These disciples had received the gospel, and became disciples, and had been baptized by John the Baptizer. But they had been baptized before the Holy Spirit was given, and so had not received the Spirit at the time of their baptism.

While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They said, "Into John’s baptism." And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 19:1-5

If modern Pentecostals today encounter someone whom they believe have not received the Holy Spirit, they lay hands on them and cry out to the Lord to impart His Spirit to him. But what did Paul do? He asked them about their baptism. Paul knew that the norm was to receive the Spirit at baptism. Since this didn't happen, Paul realized that there must be something wrong with their baptism, or if not "wrong", at least different.

The Samaritan Disciples of Christ
These disciples had received the gospel (The word of God), become disciples, and had been baptized in Jesus Name. The Samaritans were a hated people by the Jews. God didn't impart the Holy Spirit to them until the apostles prayed for them. In this way God showed all the Jews that the Samaritans could become God's people, too.

Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit; for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17

The next group is a complete reversal. They heard the gospel, accepted the message, became disciples, and immediately received the Holy Spirit without having been baptized. Why did God give them the Spirit before their baptism?

The Gentiles
After the Holy Spirit had been given, a group of people, including some gentiles, heard Peter proclaim the gospel But since the Jewish believers were not ready to accept gentiles as believers, God did things in reverse order in order to prove that the gentiles could become part of the remnant of Israel (those who truly followed God). As Paul had put it later, the gentiles were branches from a "wild olive tree" which were grafted into the cultivated olive tree, the true Israelites. God wanted them to be baptized (normally necessary), but the Jewish disciples would never have permitted this, if God had not demonstrated that the gentiles could also become part of His people.

While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, "Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Acts 10:44-48

In our day, there are no left-over baptized persons by John the Baptizer. Nor is their any new people group who would not be accepted by Christians as disciples. Thus in our day, everyone who repents (has a change of mind and heart), submits to the authority of Christ in his life, and is baptized, is regenerated as he is baptized and immediately receives the Holy Spirit.