dirtfarmer
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Under Grace not Under Law
- Thread starter Papyrus_dust
- Start date
Totally agree.
If we look at the scripture itself and the context will discover the truth.
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. Ephesians 4:30-32
The first thing we notice is this scripture you refered to doesn't say we are sealed until the day of redemption.
It's says we are sealed for the day of redemption.
The second thing about this verse is the word sealed.
This refers to the stamp with a signet that kings used to authenticate a letter.
The Holy Spirit is the mark of the genuine believer.
IOW the Holy Spirit is only given to those who genuinely believe.
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 1:13
- having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
From this point a good study of what the biblical word believe means, as well what the Bible says about those who believe for a while.
Now for context.
In the same breath goes on to say -
Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.
3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:1-7
Look at what warns of, in the same breath as he said.., do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
- Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Paul warns the Ephesians not to be partakers of God's wrath along with the sons of disobedience.
Christian's who practice the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God, which means they will partake of God's wrath along with the sons of disobedience.
JLB
Yes and each person who is in Christ must make the choice to live by His life and produce fruit or live according to the flesh and practice the works of the flesh.
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
He loves us all dearly and desires for each of us to be with Him forever in the kingdom of God, as His beloved people.
The fruit of His Life and Spirit is love.
Love is expressed in deeds.
My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.
1 John 3:18
Jesus wants His Life expressed through us in fruitful expressions of love.
And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful. Titus 3:14
Look at the words he says to His people who have no fruitful expression of Hos Life on the Day of Refemption.
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ Matthew 25:41-43
JLB
LIKE!
Morning JLB, looking up the following (Strongs G1519) -unto), throughout, til, to (be, the end, what would the significant difference of saying UNTO which it is interpreted as? In other words, how do you understand this particular redemption to mean? When are we redeemed according to your thinking?
The manner I see this is like the song of redemption the 24 elders and 4 Living Ones sing that were caught up to God in their particular order written in Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. Thanks.
dirtfarmer
Member
But the Prodigal son was lost or dead. Dead doesn't sound like saved.A great observation to reiterate eternal salvation and God's grace is not irrevocable. Thank you for posting that brother.Someone can lose fellowship with our Lord, those who choose to leave their faith. But the father will never forget their name. Just as the father in the parable of the prodigal knew his son from afar off and rejoiced to see him return. But had he died in his journeys abroad, the father would have still loved and cherished the son he knew by name.
While the older brother was angry to see all of it restored. The fellowship and the family of his father. A very deep and abiding timeless message isn't it.
“But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’" Luke 15:22-24 and again in v32.
Traveling teacher
Member
When you focus on initial salvation only and dont look at a lifelong relationship with our Father in heaven with the ups and downs and trials of this relationship you are walking in imaturity....
As Paul says that those who focus on the begininning of your walk with the Lord are imature Christians
Hebrews 6:1-2
Paul specifically mentions these 2 doctrines as elementary
1. Babtism
2. Eternal security
Let us go onto maturity...through prayer and obedience to Love for others
Hebrews 5:11-14
God wants to know how I am doing today...cant live in the past.....
philipians 3:13
One thing I do is forget what lies behind
And press on toward Christ
As Paul says that those who focus on the begininning of your walk with the Lord are imature Christians
Hebrews 6:1-2
Paul specifically mentions these 2 doctrines as elementary
1. Babtism
2. Eternal security
Let us go onto maturity...through prayer and obedience to Love for others
Hebrews 5:11-14
God wants to know how I am doing today...cant live in the past.....
philipians 3:13
One thing I do is forget what lies behind
And press on toward Christ
The Lord explains to us the work of angels who obey His commands, to gather up those who are sentenced to such Judgement.
The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:41-42
I have never said this work was for men to do.
I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;...
John 15:1-2
The unfruitful branches are removed from Him.
That is the main point.
JLB
Yes. Great scriptures
I skimmed through the thread and might have missed this point if already raised - but the error most probably lies in how we interpret the term 'Law'.
In response to the OP concerning Rom 6:14, we face a dilemma only if we have to choose between God's grace and God's commandments. And that is forced only if you constrain the meaning of the Law to be the 'set of commandments'. The term Law has several usages even in our own contemporary context - in the Bible, it could refer to the Torah as seen in references of 'the Law and the Prophets' Or it could simply refer to a principle such as the Law of Gravity as seen in Rom 3:27.
The Law of works is a principle which Paul himself quotes out of Lev 18:5 - (paraphrased) if a man does the things of God, he shall have life in so doing them. The corollary of this principle is - if a man does not do the things of God, he shall be under the curse unto death. This is the Law that Paul writes throughout about - the principle alone and not necessarily the set of commandments taken individually or grouped as ceremonial / ten commandments etc.
It is in this manner alone that Paul writes that the Law is not of faith quoting Lev 18:5 in Gal 3:12. And still more, he states that the Law seeks only self-righteousness and not the righteousness of God in Rom 10:3 by quoting Lev 18:5 again in Rom 10:5.
This way, it's now a consistent interpretation to deny the self-righteous principle that is not of faith and yet not be an antinomian - upholding both God's Grace and Commandments. Of course, the commandments ought again to be interpreted spiritually instead of limiting them as simply the foreshadow.
In response to the OP concerning Rom 6:14, we face a dilemma only if we have to choose between God's grace and God's commandments. And that is forced only if you constrain the meaning of the Law to be the 'set of commandments'. The term Law has several usages even in our own contemporary context - in the Bible, it could refer to the Torah as seen in references of 'the Law and the Prophets' Or it could simply refer to a principle such as the Law of Gravity as seen in Rom 3:27.
The Law of works is a principle which Paul himself quotes out of Lev 18:5 - (paraphrased) if a man does the things of God, he shall have life in so doing them. The corollary of this principle is - if a man does not do the things of God, he shall be under the curse unto death. This is the Law that Paul writes throughout about - the principle alone and not necessarily the set of commandments taken individually or grouped as ceremonial / ten commandments etc.
It is in this manner alone that Paul writes that the Law is not of faith quoting Lev 18:5 in Gal 3:12. And still more, he states that the Law seeks only self-righteousness and not the righteousness of God in Rom 10:3 by quoting Lev 18:5 again in Rom 10:5.
This way, it's now a consistent interpretation to deny the self-righteous principle that is not of faith and yet not be an antinomian - upholding both God's Grace and Commandments. Of course, the commandments ought again to be interpreted spiritually instead of limiting them as simply the foreshadow.
Yes.
Here was my post in the other thread about the law.
I think we pretty much agree.
The Torah is a reference to the first five books of the Bible and is referred to as the law, and was written by Moses.
The Old Testament, as we call it, is primarily composed of the law, the prophets and the psalms, along with what some call, "the writings", which would be like proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Job.
Also, as you are aware of, there is the apocrypha.
The law of Moses is also referred to as the law.
The context is what determines which is being referred to.
When the author couples the law together with the prophets, then it is most often, a reference to the Torah.
Example: Torah
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. Matthew 5:17
The Law in this verse is a reference to the Torah, the first five books of the Bible.
Jesus uses the law of Moses, specifically in this case to clarify.
Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”
Luke 24:44
Example: law of Moses
17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.19 What purpose then does the lawserve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it wasappointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
Galatians 3:17-19
Paul is contrasting the Abrahamic Covenant and the promises, with the law of Moses.
The law of Moses was "added" to the Abrahamic Covenant, not the Torah.
This is how we use the context, to determine (in most cases) which law is being
JLB
Yes.
Being under the law meant "under obligation to obey" the law.
Likewise being under grace is being under obligation to obey grace, which is the divine power enabling us to do what we can not, without it.
Grace is the Holy Spirit, who is called the Spirit of Grace as well as the Spirit of truth.
We are now called to walk in the truth, obeying the truth rather than obeying the unrighteous desires that come from our flesh.
Paul says it this way -
God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8
- those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
- those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth
Under grace is a greater requirement than under the law, because we have the power and the new nature to practice righteousness having been given dominion over the sin in our flesh.
Hebrews says it this way -
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:29
The context here is dealing with those Hebrews who were being pressured to turn back to Judaism and depart from Christ, in which they no longer had a sacrifice for sins.
I'm using this scripture to point out that the Spirit of grace holds us to a higher standard that that of the law of Moses.
Some think that being under grace means they can live in sin and not be held accountable.
JLB
Jim Parker
Member
As you wish.Unless you can show me more, I reckon we'll just have to disagree for now. Be blessed in Christ Jesus.
But, be careful what you wish for.
Hey Dirt farmer,
I wouldn't make it so cut and dry as to say that when you run across an apparent contradiction that you have a misunderstanding, I just think at that point one has to say to themselves, there has to be more to this than is on the surface. Because clearly if you were to just take some verses and isolate a sentence here and there and compare it to another their would be some apparent contradictions. Having said that, now you do in fact have to read the context of the verse and ask who was he speaking too and most importantly of all "What point was God trying to Make?" Not every single verse in the bible can in and of itself be an exhaustive dissertation on any given subject. So it does become quite critical to look at all of the given scriptures on a given subject to begin to get a big picture view of the heart of the father concerning some matter. But also what ever conclusion you draw needs to not contradict other fundamental foundational principles of the bible. For once saved always saved to be true, then that would mean that there is no free choice.
Jim Parker
Member
That is a power is not an aspect of grace that is commonly understood. It is most often accepted as "unmerited favor."
So; That would render John 1:14: "And the word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of unmerited favor and truth."
hmmmmmm
Well that would be a false professor who is still dead in his sin. A true believer may fall into certain sins but will be chastened by the Lord, as in the case with David. A lifestyle of sin is someone who bears no fruit of repentance and belief in the gospel. A true believer cannot lose his salvation. If he could, then Christ has failed and the grace of God that saves is nullified. This is what the “law keepers” believes happens when they teach that the elect can lose their salvation by their works of obedience