Under Grace not Under Law

[Eugene]

we do not sin while our bodies are dead and buried!

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

And your point is?

You are the one that said above "we do not sin while our bodies are dead and buried!
I was just bringing it to your attention that we as believers are buried with Christ in baptism. Do you disagree with this?

 

[Eugene]

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God . . . .
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not . . . .

And the same person also said:
1Jo 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
Which passage is wrong?

Neither scripture is wrong to the best of my knowledge of it. It is all context, context, context. Please consider the following.

Brother Jim Parker, what and who was Jesus’ ensuing battles with throughout His going to His people; the Jews? Near every instance it was the Gnostics, scribes, and Pharisees.

How can we come to any conclusion if we take what Jesus said to those under law and apply it to our correction as believers, when in actuality He is correcting those opposing His message of grace versus the law of condemnation.

Let’s look at 1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) Were those hearing this all saved? Let’s go further.

1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you (Do you see two different opinions of God being presented here?), that ye also may have fellowship with us (How could unbelievers ever have fellowship with us whose fellowship is with our Father?): and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Back to the thought of the OP, “Under Grace, not under Law.” When we rightly divide the word of truth there is no conflict. Even if there were believers among them that thought their law keeping was above sin by keeping the law, A.S. Copley made note of the fact any that believed that law keeping was sufficient were still faced with their Old Man that must be counted dead. Thanks.

 

[JLB]

Well if you can insist on conditional security you can seek out the scripture that tell Christians Jesus did not come to save the righteous but the sinners. The well do not need a physician. The ill do.
It would be stark stupid for Jesus to come to save the sinners when he knew full well there were those who would be righteous in his sight once those called by the grace of God repented of their sins, REPENTED of their SINS and were forgiven by the God that would remember their sins no more, to then say he came to save the righteous after they repented because by golly they were still gonna be sinners and unrighteous.
Conditional security doctrine is Hell's spawn. Not Christ's covenant sealed by his blood. And that is why it is true. Those unrighteous will never see the kingdom of God.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

I listed several scriptures that teach us from Paul writing to the Christians in Galatia and Corinth as well as Ephesus, warning them with these very clear words.

But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:3-7

• because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Therefore do not be partakers with them.


JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

I listed several scriptures that teach us from Paul writing to the Christians in Galatia and Corinth as well as Ephesus, warning them with these very clear words.

But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:3-7

• because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Therefore do not be partakers with them.


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

In verse 6 that you quoted, who are "the sons of disobedience"? If Romans 8:1 is correct: "There is therefore no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit", and it is, then if a believer has the ability to become lost again, then scripture is false and not true, but scripture tells us that it is God that keeps us secure by the earnest of the Spirit.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Yes to God Alone be the glory in Christ our Lord! Great post

I certainly don’t want to hear works based salvation being promoted. All the while denying the gospel of Christ

To put a fine point on it, isn't that the point of that which promotes works based salvation? To refute the simple truth of God's grace and eternal life and salvation through faith alone. Because of God who was Christ.

 

[Boaz308]

I'll chime again in. I can assure you, maybe it's semantics and maybe your thinking something different than the words you are using but everyone who believes in "UNCONDITIONAL" ETERNAL SECURITY is DEAD WRONG!!!! Here's why, You have now removed Free Choice. Love can not exist with out Choice and the entire story of the bible is a Love Story. You need to stop finding scriptures that only support your argument and you need to read those scriptures and ask the spirit to reveal what they mean and what messages is God trying to convey to his people in the love story. And on the other side of the coin, you Can have ETERNAL SECURITY, albeit not unconditional But Jesus said "He would never LEAVE us nor FORSAKE us." So the choice is ours.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

In verse 6 that you quoted, who are "the sons of disobedience"? If Romans 8:1 is correct: "There is therefore no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit", and it is, then if a believer has the ability to become lost again, then scripture is false and not true, but scripture tells us that it is God that keeps us secure by the earnest of the Spirit.

Amen!

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

I listed several scriptures that teach us from Paul writing to the Christians in Galatia and Corinth as well as Ephesus, warning them with these very clear words.

But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:3-7

• because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Therefore do not be partakers with them.


JLB

God knows your opinion. Because you insist it means more than the truth he taught to John.
Galatians 1:8 (CJB) But even if we-or, for that matter, an angel from heaven!-were to announce to you some so-called "Good News" contrary to the Good News we did announce to you, let him be under a curse forever!

Further, those that pay attention saw that Justice is no longer here as a sister among those in Christ. To whom would you be speaking then?

 

[WIP]

Okay, time out! There are rules to this forum for a reason. I'm seeing way too many personal opinions tossed back and forth along with insulting and condescending statements and accusations. The purpose of this forum is not to argue points based on our own opinion but rather to dig into Scriptures for the purpose of coming to the truth. There are Scriptures that seem to back up both sides of the debate and Scripture does not contradict so the desire should be to work to find out how those Scriptures fit together not see how far we can push each other or talk down to each other.

 

[dirtfarmer]

I'll chime again in. I can assure you, maybe it's semantics and maybe your thinking something different than the words you are using but everyone who believes in "UNCONDITIONAL" ETERNAL SECURITY is DEAD WRONG!!!! Here's why, You have now removed Free Choice. Love can not exist with out Choice and the entire story of the bible is a Love Story. You need to stop finding scriptures that only support your argument and you need to read those scriptures and ask the spirit to reveal what they mean and what messages is God trying to convey to his people in the love story. And on the other side of the coin, you Can have ETERNAL SECURITY, albeit not unconditional But Jesus said "He would never LEAVE us nor FORSAKE us." So the choice is ours.

hello Boaz308, dirtfarmer here

"Free will" only applies to believers. Before a person receives salvation what choice do they have? The don't have the ability, in an unsaved condition, to let Christ live in and through them. They obey "the god of this world". he is their master and they are his slaves. When the Spirit of God reveals the plan of salvation to the unbeliever, they have a choice to either believe or to continue in unbelief. We cry to God for mercy when we realize that our destination outside of Christ there is no hope. We are condemned because we are a child of the first Adam. God gives all who believe the message of the cross the ability to choose to become an heir and joint heir with Christ.

Scripture tells us that we are kept by the power of God until the day of redemption, therefore we cannot break the relationship that has been established. We can hinder fellowship, but we can't break the established relationship.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

I'll chime again in. I can assure you, maybe it's semantics and maybe your thinking something different than the words you are using but everyone who believes in "UNCONDITIONAL" ETERNAL SECURITY is DEAD WRONG!!!! Here's why, You have now removed Free Choice. Love can not exist with out Choice and the entire story of the bible is a Love Story. You need to stop finding scriptures that only support your argument and you need to read those scriptures and ask the spirit to reveal what they mean and what messages is God trying to convey to his people in the love story. And on the other side of the coin, you Can have ETERNAL SECURITY, albeit not unconditional But Jesus said "He would never LEAVE us nor FORSAKE us." So the choice is ours.

Context! Context makes the truth of God in Christ and the eternal grace that provides eternal salvation and life for those in Christ purpose. And surrounds the teaching Jesus gave his life to seal under his blood for eternity every protection from any effort formed against it. God is The Word of Life. The words of people can't change that. We can only pray for that which would think the expenditure of the effort shall overcome that truth. Pray to be protected from it when it does not relent and seek to know the truth that shall make them free. Yes, it is a choice. Jesus sheep hear his voice and follow him. They can't follow unless they become that sheep who knows the shepherd's purpose for themselves. And that precious shepherd knows each that will follow by name. God is eternal and he's known our name forever
Galatians 1:8 (CJB) But even if we-or, for that matter, an angel from heaven!-were to announce to you some so-called "Good News" contrary to the Good News we did announce to you, let him be under a curse forever!

 

[Boaz308]

hello Boaz308, dirtfarmer here

"Free will" only applies to believers. Before a person receives salvation what choice do they have? The don't have the ability, in an unsaved condition, to let Christ live in and through them. They obey "the god of this world". he is their master and they are his slaves. When the Spirit of God reveals the plan of salvation to the unbeliever, they have a choice to either believe or to continue in unbelief. We cry to God for mercy when we realize that our destination outside of Christ there is no hope. We are condemned because we are a child of the first Adam. God gives all who believe the message of the cross the ability to choose to become an heir and joint heir with Christ.

Scripture tells us that we are kept by the power of God until the day of redemption, therefore we cannot break the relationship that has been established. We can hinder fellowship, but we can't break the established relationship.

Hey Dirtfarmer,
I will admit my DEAD WRONG statement was a little dogmatic, so I will apologize for that. But Please re-read what you just said. You have now taken free will out of both sides of the equation and seemed to have defined a single moment in someones life where they have to make a decision and given free will to make that choice and then free will is once again removed. This is not the story of the bible.

 

[Boaz308]

Hey Dirtfarmer,

I know that you will say "well they were never children of God to begin with." But I have watched people walk away from Jesus. I have known them in their walk and it was genuine. Now I know lot's of people that grew up in church with out a genuine walk that have walked away and I would agree in many cases "Well, they never were children of God to begin with." I know personal experience doesn't trump what the bible says,So here is a scriptuere: Tell me what you do with this scripture when it comes to this doctrine of "UNCONDITIONAL" Eternal Security

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

 

[MCoop]

hello Boaz308, dirtfarmer here

"Free will" only applies to believers. Before a person receives salvation what choice do they have? The don't have the ability, in an unsaved condition, to let Christ live in and through them. They obey "the god of this world". he is their master and they are his slaves. When the Spirit of God reveals the plan of salvation to the unbeliever, they have a choice to either believe or to continue in unbelief. We cry to God for mercy when we realize that our destination outside of Christ there is no hope. We are condemned because we are a child of the first Adam. God gives all who believe the message of the cross the ability to choose to become an heir and joint heir with Christ.

Scripture tells us that we are kept by the power of God until the day of redemption, therefore we cannot break the relationship that has been established. We can hinder fellowship, but we can't break the established relationship.

Yes kept by Gods power through faith. 1 Peter 1:1-5.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

People can walk away from Christ. Those who are In Christ know that Jesus doesn't walk away from them.
The parable of the Prodigal son is a beautiful reminder of that.
As is the reaction of the Prodigal's older brother. The older brother became angry that his brother had returned to the family home. And he was also angry that his father welcomed him back. That I believe is reminiscent of that which insists on promoting conditional security. I think it is a great thing to encounter in my life what was foretold as a lesson, a parable, in God's word generations before I was born. It prepares me for what comes. And then I am not surprised when what is coming arrives. Because God foretold of it so we , I , would be prepared.https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-stories/the-prodigal-son-parable-bible-story.html

 

[Jim Parker]

No one earns it through good works BUT whether he inherits the kingdom or sent to hell will depend on the works he did??? Ok what a contradiction... that is definitely a denial of salvation by grace alone.

I have NEVER said that anyone EARNS salvation.

 

[Jim Parker]

You are the one that said above "we do not sin while our bodies are dead and buried!
I was just bringing it to your attention that we as believers are buried with Christ in baptism. Do you disagree with this?

That is a different topic altogether.
I was referring to people who had physically died. Their bodies had ceased to function and begun to decay. I was referring to THOSE DEAD BODIES.
Baptism is an entirely different event.

 

[Jim Parker]

Brother Jim Parker, what and who was Jesus’ ensuing battles with throughout His going to His people; the Jews? Near every instance it was the Gnostics, scribes, and Pharisees.

John's letters were addressed to believers, not to unsaved Jews, or gnostics or scribes or pharisees.

Back to the thought of the OP, “Under Grace, not under Law.”

I have NEVER suggested that Christians are "under law."

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Actually this has been addressed about the Johannine letters is that John was speaking to the church because the congregation was being plagued by false teachings. This has been discussed already.

The argument that Christians need to work to keep their salvation is works salvation and that is the OT law of works, not grace. It wasn't suggested, it was avowed as fact using scripture out of context in order to sustain the teaching.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Hey Dirtfarmer,

I know that you will say "well they were never children of God to begin with." But I have watched people walk away from Jesus. I have known them in their walk and it was genuine. Now I know lot's of people that grew up in church with out a genuine walk that have walked away and I would agree in many cases "Well, they never were children of God to begin with." I know personal experience doesn't trump what the bible says,So here is a scriptuere: Tell me what you do with this scripture when it comes to this doctrine of "UNCONDITIONAL" Eternal Security

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

hello Boaz, dirtfarmer here

The mistake that most people make is trying to find church doctrine in the writings of Peter. We find in Galatians chapter 2 that Peter the apostle was an apostle to the circumcision not to the heathen(Gentiles). Paul was the apostle that was given by God to be the apostle to the heathen(Gentiles). When we read scripture we need to determine to whom it was written and apply it to those. Galatians 2:7-9 reveals that the gospel of the circumcision was committed to Cephas(Peter), James, and John(Galatians 2:7 & 9). When we apply doctrine established in those writings we bring confusion and God is not the author of confusion.

We need to rightly divide the word of truth: scriptures that are written by the apostles to circumcision apply to the Hebrews. Scripture written by Paul are to the heathen(Gentiles), those are the scriptures that we find doctrine for the age of grace(the church age).