Under the Law - what does it mean?

[reba]

The thread is open..... lets see if we can keep personal jabs out of our words....

 

[Joe Domingo]

The thread is open..... lets see if we can keep personal jabs out of our words....

Thanks Reba. I know that I will

 

[George Muller]

why are they base George? What defines them as base? After all, if we have no rules (no law) there is nothing to determine that they are base.

Who said we have no law?

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ro 3:19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Ga 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

You keep telling us that we are not under the Law in the sense that we are not to obey the Law. I say we are to obey the Law and thanks to the grace of God and the sacrifice of Christ, we are not bound to pay the price for our transgressions. We are forgiven and told to quit sinning. Quit breaking God's Law.

What I am saying is written in clear words, in the bible.

Ro 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

No man can keep the law by the written code. So the bible continues to explain....

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The gospel does not change, now if you want to be under the law? Thats your choice, but its not the gospel.

 

[smaller]

Since the subject seemed to get 'out of hand' by some participants at this point of order I will repeat the common sense observations.

A. No believer should be against Gods Law being in opposition to indwelling sin/evil present in any person, least of all in believers. We after all are also against sin and evil as believers. So it makes no sense to be against the Law if the Law is against what we are also against.

From point of observation A, it get's very dicey for both sides of the debate of Law and Grace.

From the Law side, no amount of 'legal obedience' makes anyone sinless, temporarily sinless or a legally obedient sinner (a completely inane possibility.) One may certain not be 'murdering' or 'stealing' as an external action but that is not what defines being a 'sinner' is. This point seems to be entirely lost on nearly every form of legalist.

and

From the Grace side of the equations it is equally pointless to try to encompass indwelling sin/evil present in any believer, which same we 'all' factually have. It is just as entirely pointless as the legalist trying to make their indwelling sin/evil present 'legally obedient' or 'non-existing temporarily.'

Just as feigned legal obedience does not make the adherents sinless, neither does Grace authorize or make indwelling sin/evil present disappear OR even more, to have indwelling sin/evil present entirely overlooked by God in GRACE as that in effect makes it OK. To me this is an even worse claim than the legalist jargon. Either side of this conversation going these directions falls into instant hypocrisy. Legalist making incredible claims about the facts of indwelling sin/evil present being legally obedient and the Grace camp having God overlook same as if it is ENTIRELY OK. I say nonsense to both claims.

In the final analysis neither party becomes sinless under Law or Grace. It's the only reasoned approach. And both parties as believers try to do GOOD. This much is generally beyond doubt in my mind, or at least I'd give either proponent the benefit of the doubt as to their overall intentions...but that doesn't change the facts of our mutual conditions regardless of where we are on this issue.

Honestly will prevail every single time in those who are so led.

s

 

[George Muller]

According to your demonstration I don't have to Love God, I just have to love my Neighbor...

I'm just working with what you give me my brother. And of course you do realize that he is just repeating the commandments 5 thru 10, as a summary?

Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Paul must know something about love that you do not understand?


Joh 15:9 ¶ As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

1Jo 3:11 ¶ For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. {message: or, commandment}
1Jo 3:14 ¶ We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jo 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
1Jo 3:23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jo 4:7 ¶ Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1Jo 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Sounds like God is saying that we prove our love for Him, when we love one another.

 

[smaller]

The gospel does not change, now if you want to be under the law? Thats your choice, but its not the gospel.

George, you should know by now that under either law or grace to not murder or steal is an identical intention of every believer. So in this effort both parties are factually against the same matters are they not?

Where then is the beef?

s

 

[George Muller]

The gospel does not change, now if you want to be under the law? Thats your choice, but its not the gospel.

George, you should know by now that under either law or grace to not murder or steal is an identical intention of every believer. So in this effort both parties are factually against the same matters are they not?

Where then is the beef?

s

Well until one is set free from the law, they cannot be set free from sin. Its impossible!

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Ro 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

The strength of sin is the law.

Now, the bible is 100% correct, if some have a hard time understanding, I suggest that they listen to Paul;


1Co 3:18 ¶ Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
21 ¶ Therefore let no man glory in men.

Only when one becomes a fool can they be made wise, only when one becomes weak can they be made strong.
Only when one admits they cannot keep the (written code) of the law, will the Spirit of God work to fulfill the law written upon the heart.

 

[smaller]

Well until one is set free from the law, they cannot be set free from sin. Its impossible!

Grace obviously makes none of us sinless George nor does Grace condone sin. Our efforts to not kill or murder under Grace are no different than that of the legalist as to intent.

Now, the bible is 100% correct, if some have a hard time understanding, I suggest that they listen to Paul;[/quote]

Meaning what George? I believe Paul 100% and Paul has not convinced me I'm sinless under Grace. The opposite would be more true. Nor has Paul convinced me that sin or evil is overlooked or authorized by Grace. Again the opposite would be more true.

Only when one becomes a fool can they be made wise, only when one becomes weak can they be made strong.

You mean made sinless George? What are you trying to say?

Only when one admits they cannot keep the (written code) of the law, will the Spirit of God work to fulfill the law written upon the heart.

By how George? Making one sinless? That doesn't happen under Law or Grace. And neither measure condones sin or evil. So how are you any different under Grace in trying to do good, yet still having sin?

You get the picture?

s

 

[George Muller]

Read the scriptures smaller, they are clear to the point I made.
I am in fact "sinless in Christ"

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[smaller]

Read the scriptures smaller, they are clear to the point I made.
I am in fact "sinless in Christ"

The legalist makes no different of a claim when being legally obedient George.

For the record I can not lie under Grace or under Law and claim I am sinless or have no sin.

and I refuse the delusions that both sides of this debate presents.

s

 

[George Muller]

Read the scriptures smaller, they are clear to the point I made.
I am in fact "sinless in Christ"

The legalist makes no different of a claim when being legally obedient George.

For the record I can not lie under Grace or under Law and claim I am sinless or have no sin.

and I refuse the delusions that both sides of this debate presents.

s

I will stay with the Word and allow you to decide what part of it you want to believe?
1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[Elijah674]

Hey friend, where are the first verses? 1 John 5

[1] Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
[2] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
(all ten!)

[3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
[4] For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
[5] Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

[6] This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
[7] For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
[8] And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
[9] If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

[10] He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
[11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and [[he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.]]
[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
[14] And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
[15] And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

[16] If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. [[There is a sin unto death:]] I do not say that he shall pray for it.
[17] All unrighteousness is sin: and [[there is a sin not unto death.]]
[18] We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

(see verse 16's last part of the verse! And you document that you are not a 7th day Sabbath Observer)

[19] And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
[20] And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
[21] Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

 

[George Muller]

[1] Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
[2] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
(all ten!)

First John defines these commandments;1Jo 3:23 ¶ And this is his commandment,1. That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ,2. and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

and the point of the post was to prove how love fulfills the law

Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Paul must know something about love that you do not understand?


Joh 15:9 ¶ As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

1Jo 3:11 ¶ For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. {message: or, commandment}
1Jo 3:14 ¶ We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jo 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
1Jo 3:23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jo 4:7 ¶ Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1Jo 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Sounds like God is saying that we prove our love for Him, when we love one another.

 

[Joe Domingo]

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. John 1:8

Even in Christ we cannot say that we are sinless. Because ultimately, we are sinners. Yes the blood of Christ washes our sins away but we are still sinners under grace and willingly obeying God's law. At least I am.

Far as I'm concerned both camps Grace and Obedience are necessary to live the life of a believer.

 

[George Muller]

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. John 1:8

Even in Christ we cannot say that we are sinless. Because ultimately, we are sinners. Yes the blood of Christ washes our sins away but we are still sinners under grace and willingly obeying God's law. At least I am.

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God

There must be some things that some of you do not understand?

Ro 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

 

[smaller]

I will stay with the Word and allow you to decide what part of it you want to believe?

It's not a matter of 'decision' George. Deciding not to lie about having sin is also a decision.

An honest answer.

There are other scriptural ways to see these matters without having to deceive ourselves.

Paul gave us his example of himself.

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

The above is an 'after salvation' statement of fact. If that was Paul's state of being, what is ours by comparison? Were that not the case Paul could have easily said 'I was' or 'I used to be.'

It is far more difficult to arrive at the heart of the issues of sin, Law and Grace.

Deception is a dark alley.

IN these types of conversations it has to be asked: Do you no longer ever have a sin thought? Never a temptation? Tempter never ever bothers you whatsoever? You always have only Perfect Thoughts? Everything that ever crosses your mind is only True and Incorrupt.

There is no shortage of deceptions that men will stop at in order to avoid eternally torturing or eternally killing themselves.

But honesty is seldom the method employed.

s

 

[George Muller]

It's not a matter of 'decision' George. Deciding not to lie about having sin is also a decision.

I will quote the scripture again, but I cannot make you believe it.

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Now, this is part of the "mystery of godliness" it is written in clear and plain words for all to read. If one has not attained to this scripture? I suggest that they stop trying to teach others and become a student and learn how to live a Godly and sinless life.

 

[smaller]

I will quote the scripture again, but I cannot make you believe it.

Why do you think citing only the scriptures you agree with make a case for a believer being dishonest about having sin?

You aren't related to Mitspa are you?

and for the record most who post here are intimate with the scriptures, and if they aren't it usually shows up pretty fast.

So, again I ask you why you avoid the observations that I make with you? Is it beneficial to only look at the scriptures we 'personally like' and disregard the balance?

I put up an observation of fact from the scriptures about Paul being the chief of sinners. An APOSTLE.

Are you now better than him?

Is this too difficult for you to address and instead we play the dodge game and think ourselves a winner?

???

Now, this is part of the "mystery of godliness" it is written in clear and plain words for all to read. If one has not attained to this scripture? I suggest that they stop trying to teach others and become a student and learn how to live a Godly and sinless life.

It's no mystery that some have declarations of fantasy over fact and they often call it faith. IF fantasies counted for faith one may as well have faith for 70 virgins.

s

 

[JLB]

It's not a matter of 'decision' George. Deciding not to lie about having sin is also a decision.

I will quote the scripture again, but I cannot make you believe it.

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Now, this is part of the "mystery of godliness" it is written in clear and plain words for all to read. If one has not attained to this scripture? I suggest that they stop trying to teach others and become a student and learn how to live a Godly and sinless life.

So the struggle is with the sin that remains in the flesh.

For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

However we still need to present our members as slaves to righteousness.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.


JLB

 

[George Muller]

It's not a matter of 'decision' George. Deciding not to lie about having sin is also a decision.

I will quote the scripture again, but I cannot make you believe it.

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Now, this is part of the "mystery of godliness" it is written in clear and plain words for all to read. If one has not attained to this scripture? I suggest that they stop trying to teach others and become a student and learn how to live a Godly and sinless life.

So the struggle is with the sin that remains in the flesh.

For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

However we still need to present our members as slaves to righteousness.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.


JLB

Yes through the truth the mind is renewed unto the Image of Christ, Having died with Him to sin and sins power over the flesh "which is by the law" we become enslaved to true righteousness, and cannot sin.