Under the Law - what does it mean?

[George Muller]

why are they base George? What defines them as base? After all, if we have no rules (no law) there is nothing to determine that they are base.

Who said we have no law?

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ro 3:19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Ga 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

 

[John 8:32]

why are they base George? What defines them as base? After all, if we have no rules (no law) there is nothing to determine that they are base.

Who said we have no law?

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ro 3:19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Ga 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

You keep telling us that we are not under the Law in the sense that we are not to obey the Law. I say we are to obey the Law and thanks to the grace of God and the sacrifice of Christ, we are not bound to pay the price for our transgressions. We are forgiven and told to quit sinning. Quit breaking God's Law.

 

[Joe Domingo]

Sometimes it's best to just be clear and concise on your position. George you have failed to do that repeatedly. I too get a sense that we are free in Christ to do anything we please. Now you may not mean to say that - but your usage of scriptures and how you use them to support your perspective is done in a way that leads the reader to believe that we do not have to obey God's Law.

Here is a perfect example ...

You said,

You may not understand nor even care to believe the clear evidence
of the gospel, but the way out of sin is not through law, but through
grace.

What gives you the idea that either me or John believe that the Law will justify us? I think we have both made it clear repeatedly on several threads that if it were not for grace - where would we be? And yet and still, we have continued to make it clear that we must obey God's Law if we truly love him and want to enter into life. Meaning that we both agree that we can't just go around breaking the Law and think it's ok with Christ.

 

[smaller]

What gives you the idea that either me or John believe that the Law will justify us? I think we have both made it clear repeatedly on several threads that if it were not for grace - where would we be? And yet and still, we have continued to make it clear that we must obey God's Law if we truly love him and want to enter into life. Meaning that we both agree that we can't just go around breaking the Law and think it's ok with Christ.

The difficulty you mention above comes up repeatedly in these types of conversations.

If either party stopped and thought things through in reasonable fashion the issues would start to dissipate in the interests of accurate conversations.

From the 'you must do the Saturday Sabbath camp.'

A. No one who does the Saturday Sabbath makes themselves sinless or legally obedient by doing so. Even the mere 'thought' of not wanting to 'do' the Sabbath, [whatever that may consist of in the eyes of the particular dictates] is A SIN internally.

B. Indwelling sin/evil present is a reality with all believers that does not go away or disappear, ever, in this present life.

C. The Law is intended to be against that working of indwelling sin/evil present. To make them a known fact within those whom honestly confront the matters before our Maker.

Is it a problem if a group of believers desires to gather on Saturday? Absolutely NOT. The problem arises when such adherents try to make incredible claims that other believers must do as they do or they are sinning, condemned and stand in possible eternal judgment for that sin. This is where the heart of the friction on this issue arises.

From the Grace side of the ledgers:

A. No believer becomes sinless under Grace.

B. No indwelling sin and evil present which we all have is UNDER GRACE, authorized or condoned.

C. It's not a problem if someone wants to gather on Saturday or not eat pork as a 'personal matter of conscience.'

The always overlooked common denominator on both sides of this issue (and most others) is the incessant desire to overlook the obvious problem, which is indwelling sin/evil present and trying to gloss it up or cover it over with legal obedience or grace.

Both camps think that if they don't murder, that makes them a non-murderer. Scripture tells us the mere thought of sin defiles us all. And that the thought of sin comes to the fore when indwelling sin meets Gods Law. None of us who engage the scriptures avoids those thoughts. It comes with the territory. There are more than enough laws to make us 'think' about at least one of them in a defiling manner.

Neither 'angle' will or can work, period. Those who can't see the simplicity of this matter are doomed to continually go around in circles. And all try to somehow vainly justify the obvious problem or cover up the glaring issue by avoiding the subject matter.

s

 

[smaller]

You keep telling us that we are not under the Law in the sense that we are not to obey the Law. I say we are to obey the Law and thanks to the grace of God and the sacrifice of Christ, we are not bound to pay the price for our transgressions. We are forgiven and told to quit sinning. Quit breaking God's Law.

It has been repeatedly pointed out that exactly zero of us become temporarily sinless.

No, no one 'obeys' the law, period.

We all have indwelling sin/evil present as a fact, regardless.

This claim that Saturday Sabbath adherents are somehow by doing so, legally obedient sinners is an assault to simple reasoning because it doesn't happen. And to then heap up condemnations to other believers over the matters only compounds the tensions.

s

 

[Elijah674]

What gives you the idea that either me or John believe that the Law will justify us? I think we have both made it clear repeatedly on several threads that if it were not for grace - where would we be? And yet and still, we have continued to make it clear that we must obey God's Law if we truly love him and want to enter into life. Meaning that we both agree that we can't just go around breaking the Law and think it's ok with Christ.

The difficulty you mention above comes up repeatedly in these types of conversations.

If either party stopped and thought things through in reasonable fashion the issues would start to dissipate in the interests of accurate conversations.

From the 'you must do the Saturday Sabbath camp.'

A. No one who does the Saturday Sabbath makes themselves sinless or legally obedient by doing so. Even the mere 'thought' of not wanting to 'do' the Sabbath, [whatever that may consist of in the eyes of the particular dictates] is A SIN internally.

B. Indwelling sin/evil present is a reality with all believers that does not go away or disappear, ever, in this present life.

C. The Law is intended to be against that working of indwelling sin/evil present. To make them a known fact within those whom honestly confront the matters before our Maker.

Is it a problem if a group of believers desires to gather on Saturday? Absolutely NOT. The problem arises when such adherents try to make incredible claims that other believers must do as they do or they are sinning, condemned and stand in possible eternal judgment for that sin. This is where the heart of the friction on this issue arises.

From the Grace side of the ledgers:

A. No believer becomes sinless under Grace.

B. No indwelling sin and evil present which we all have is UNDER GRACE, authorized or condoned.

C. It's not a problem if someone wants to gather on Saturday or not eat pork as a 'personal matter of conscience.'

The always overlooked common denominator on both sides of this issue (and most others) is the incessant desire to overlook the obvious problem, which is indwelling sin/evil present and trying to gloss it up or cover it over with legal obedience or grace.

Both camps think that if they don't murder, that makes them a non-murderer. Scripture tells us the mere thought of sin defiles us all. And that the thought of sin comes to the fore when indwelling sin meets Gods Law. None of us who engage the scriptures avoids those thoughts. It comes with the territory. There are more than enough laws to make us 'think' about at least one of them in a defiling manner.

Neither 'angle' will or can work, period. Those who can't see the simplicity of this matter are doomed to continually go around in circles. And all try to somehow vainly justify the obvious problem or cover up the glaring issue by avoiding the subject matter.

s

Just one remark by Christ of.. 'IF' YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDNENTS! (and if not, then what?) And you have a LOVING execution?

--Elijah

 

[JLB]

Just one remark by Christ of.. 'IF' YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDNENTS! (and if not, then what?) And you have a LOVING execution?

Just one remark by Christ -

"But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say?

Just one more He said -

My sheep hear My Voice...

As many as are lead by The Spirit of God, these are the sons of God.


JLB

 

[Elijah674]

No, the execution of all of the lost is called the Lords strange act!

He asks...
[1] Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
[2] And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
[3] And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.
[4] What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? Isa. 5

And these ones are not the Rev. 17:5 group! These all died because He could not save them as 'FREE MORAL' Children of Christ.

--Elijah

 

[smaller]

Just one remark by Christ of.. 'IF' YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDNENTS! (and if not, then what?) And you have a LOVING execution?

--Elijah

As defined by whom?

s

 

[Joe Domingo]

Just one remark by Christ of.. 'IF' YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDNENTS! (and if not, then what?) And you have a LOVING execution?

--Elijah

As defined by whom?

s

Now this is rather interesting ...
Christ says "I and the Father are one." John 10:30
and "And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him." John 8:29

And yet it is insinuated that they have different Commandments ...

 

[smaller]

Now this is rather interesting ...
Christ says "I and the Father are one." John 10:30
and "And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him." John 8:29

And yet it is insinuated that they have different Commandments ...

Or 'one?' Romans 13:8-10.

That is the definition I go with, 'as it is written.'

s

 

[John 8:32]

You keep telling us that we are not under the Law in the sense that we are not to obey the Law. I say we are to obey the Law and thanks to the grace of God and the sacrifice of Christ, we are not bound to pay the price for our transgressions. We are forgiven and told to quit sinning. Quit breaking God's Law.

It has been repeatedly pointed out that exactly zero of us become temporarily sinless.

No, no one 'obeys' the law, period.

We all have indwelling sin/evil present as a fact, regardless.

This claim that Saturday Sabbath adherents are somehow by doing so, legally obedient sinners is an assault to simple reasoning because it doesn't happen. And to then heap up condemnations to other believers over the matters only compounds the tensions.

s

No one has made any such claim or condemnation. What I have contended is that obedience is required. God mercy and grace was purchased at the ultimate in price, the death of the Creator. The point is, God does not throw this around lightly, He is very serious about what the cost of grace is...

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

So tell me smaller, is grace cheap and easy to come by? Does it mean very little? Or rather is it precious and not handed out to one who really doesn't care much about the cost? ONe who does whatever he pleases because he is under grace and no matter what he does, grace covers it? Or does God hand out grace freely to those who are striving to live by EVERY word?

Luk 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Even the words that are difficult? Words like...

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mat 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
Mat 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[Joe Domingo]

Now this is rather interesting ...
Christ says "I and the Father are one." John 10:30
and "And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him." John 8:29

And yet it is insinuated that they have different Commandments ...

Or 'one?' Romans 13:8-10.

That is the definition I go with, 'as it is written.'

s

According to your demonstration I don't have to Love God, I just have to love my Neighbor...

I'm just working with what you give me my brother. And of course you do realize that he is just repeating the commandments 5 thru 10, as a summary?

 

[John 8:32]

Just one remark by Christ of.. 'IF' YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDNENTS! (and if not, then what?) And you have a LOVING execution?

--Elijah

As defined by whom?

s

As defined by Christ...

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exo 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exo 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

This was the Word speaking, the one who became Jesus Christ.

 

[smaller]

As defined by Christ...

As if you are the definitive of that matter?

Uh, I very much think NOT.

Everyone throws about their favorites texts to justify their positions. I happen to be thee temporary champion of defeating lesser sights...;)

This was the Word speaking, the one who became Jesus Christ.

Jesus said we will live by Every Word of God, so I discount ZERO of Gods Words.

Yet I can quite easily arrive at an entirely different conclusion than you, supposedly also taking the same measures.

How is that exactly?

I have one approach that is seldom used. I know I'm WRONG as the scriptures show me. Knowing this I have little use for delusions about 'being right' when the scriptures are meant to prove otherwise.

Hence my temporary championship status, mini-king of WRONG...;)

You see I don't mind taking the condemnation that the LAW 'rightfully' brings to the indwelling sin and evil present that I KNOW for no uncertain fact that "I" have.



s

 

[John 8:32]

I heard a great Bible study in 2010 by Dave Myers, it was titled "Don't Tell Me What to Do." It was about the rebellion of Satan and his attitude of lawlessness and how he infected Adam and Eve with it. He goaded Eve into taking the fruit and giving it to Adam. What fruit? The fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The taking to ourselves of determining what is right and wrong instead of simply believing that God knows best. After all, God not only created the physical universe, there is a spiritual creation that is greater yet and we can't see that. Anyhoo, a few short lines surely does not do justice to a 1-1/2 hour presentation that had everyone sitting on the edge of their seats and feeling like it was over far too soon.

 

[Joe Domingo]

It's an amazing circle. Funny thing is - the dog never catches his tale. May be time for all to give it up.

I suggest that we all agree to accept everything in the entire Bible, turn to the very last page and the last Word, and all say

AMEN...

done deal.

s

Now you see my friend that is all a part of the circle. I am inclined to believe that I do accept everything written in the bible.

And yet we come to different conclusions.

 

[smaller]

I just have to love my Neighbor...

There is no just. When you do that you ARE in fact 'loving God.' See Matt. 25 or 1 John 4:20 as examples. Seriously. Go look at them. Those in Matt. 25 who 'did the good things unto others' were really doing it unto WHOM? Yeah. Jesus.

Jesus is in fact hidden in OUR NEIGHBORS and our BROTHERS. We just don't 'see Him.'

I'm just working with what you give me my brother. And of course you do realize that he is just repeating the commandments 5 thru 10, as a summary?

Uh, no, Paul included 'any other command' in Romans 13:8-10.


s

 

[smaller]

Now you see my friend that is all a part of the circle. I am inclined to believe that I do accept everything written in the bible.

And yet we come to different conclusions.

I really don't think so. As a matter of conscience are we going to have different sights? Yes. I have no issues with 'you' doing Saturday Sabbath as a matter of conscience, and I myself have also done so, but I will not condemn myself for not doing so. You might as a matter of conscience.


s

 

[reba]

closed for clean up of personal attacks

After clean up this thread will be reopened .... Members posting for the purpose of closing the threads does not go unnoticed.