Water Baptism, is that ENOUGH?

[Catholic Crusader]

...I was watching two teenagers being interviewed on TV this morning about the world youth day in Sydney. One kept on saying things about "the holy father". I find that strange as Matthew 23 V 9 says to call NO MAN on earth FATHER. If you are so sure that you are the only one that is right and that Jesus founded your church, why do you ignore what he teaches?

Start a thread on it. I will be happy to educate you. THIS thread is about Baptism

 

[Catholic Crusader]

A reminder of the original post in this thread:

The mark of a TRUE Christian has lead to a discussion on Baptism more than anything else. To keep from allowing that thread to go 'completely in this direction', I am here offering a thread devoted to the ACT of 'water Baptism' and it's significance.

Feel free to post your beliefs in this doctrine and hopefully MOST can come to some kind of a 'conclusion' as to the BASIC premiss of Physical Baptism.

i AM aware that many different denominations have assorted beliefs on the issue. But WITHOUT a 'basic premiss' and agreement, there is little that can be agreed upon in MANY other questions. Hopefully this will allow MANY to come to a 'closer understanding' and by THIS allow them 'deeper understanding' concerning OTHER issues as well.

So, we have been offered in scripture that Baptism ISN'T the TOTALITY of our submission or conversion. If someone BELIEVES that it IS, then, by all means offer us some 'scriptural evidence' so we can discuss it.

MEC

Here is a link of interest about the subject, an article from "This Rock" magazine:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0803fea2.asp

 

[dadof10]

I was watching two teenagers being interviewed on TV this morning about the world youth day in Sydney. One kept on saying things about "the holy father". I find that strange as Matthew 23 V 9 says to call NO MAN on earth FATHER. If you are so sure that you are the only one that is right and that Jesus founded your church, why do you ignore what he teaches?

WOW, I haven't heard this old accusation in years. It's been debunked so often I didn't know anyone really still tried to beat the Church with it. Here are a few verses to set you straight, AGAIN.

Acts 7:2 Stephen calls Abraham "father" and the Jewish leaders "fathers".

"And Stephen said: "Brethren and fathers, hear me. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran, 3 and said to him, `Depart from your land and from your kindred and go into the land which I will show you.'"

1Cor.4:14 Paul calls HIMSELF the Cointhians' father:

"For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel."

One more. Acts 21:40-22:1 Paul calls the Jerusalem Jews "father":

"And when he had given him leave, Paul, standing on the steps, motioned with his hand to the people; and when there was a great hush, he spoke to them in the Hebrew language, saying:
22 1 "Brethren and fathers, hear the defense which I now make before you."

That should be enough to prove that the word "father" can be used as a title. I notice you left off the word "teacher" from the same verse "call no man..." Why is that? :o

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Baptism.
Baptism.

The subject is Water Baptism

...and this link answers the "call no man father" bit:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp
please don't respond to it in this thread; respect the thread subject

 

[turnorburn]

This is quite normal for Catholics and Christians, "Protestants" to collide, so then you
say these posts are argumentative? that we chase people around denying them the chance to hear the glorious gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. No I think not, let me ask you a question if I may.
How do you know you are saved? what are you saved from? When did you meet Jesus
the year the day? these are all important questions :-D
Oh! one other question, where did CC go? :wink:

that YOU choose to follow as you do is OK. But when your attempts are designed to influence others to 'follow the leader' as you do, you ARE evangelizing and attempting to 'pull others' into YOUR faith. That is not only against the rules of the forums but something that YOU will bear the judgement of in times to come.

I would tread lightly here, MEC. This smacks of an accusation of people PURPOSEFULLY leading others away from Christ. I am pretty sure that everyone here (including you) believes with all our hearts that what we post is in keeping with the teachings of Christ.

 

[turnorburn]

Baptism.
Baptism.

The subject is Water Baptism

Oh! there you are and your quite right CC a Bot got in my way, it won't happen again until the next time :smt045

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...This is quite normal for Catholics and... .."Protestants" to collide...

Not necessarily. I have great conversations with many protestants. Its on'y the haters that spoil the threads. So, lets show'em turn: Lets get back to the subject.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The mark of a TRUE Christian has lead to a discussion on Baptism more than anything else. To keep from allowing that thread to go 'completely in this direction', I am here offering a thread devoted to the ACT of 'water Baptism' and it's significance.

Feel free to post your beliefs in this doctrine and hopefully MOST can come to some kind of a 'conclusion' as to the BASIC premiss of Physical Baptism.

i AM aware that many different denominations have assorted beliefs on the issue. But WITHOUT a 'basic premiss' and agreement, there is little that can be agreed upon in MANY other questions. Hopefully this will allow MANY to come to a 'closer understanding' and by THIS allow them 'deeper understanding' concerning OTHER issues as well.

So, we have been offered in scripture that Baptism ISN'T the TOTALITY of our submission or conversion. If someone BELIEVES that it IS, then, by all means offer us some 'scriptural evidence' so we can discuss it.

MEC

Okay MEC. We're getting back on track. Heres a few exerpts from a tract called "Baptismal Grace" in reply to your OP:

Few truths are so clearly taught in the New Testament as the doctrine that in baptism God gives us grace. Again and again the sacred writers tell us that it is in baptism that we are saved, buried with Christ, incorporated into his body, washed of our sins, regenerated, cleansed, and so on (see Acts 2:38, 22:16; Rom. 6:1–4; 1 Cor. 6:11, 12:13; Gal. 3:26–27; Eph. 5:25-27; Col. 2:11–12; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet. 3:18–22). They are unanimous in speaking of baptism in invariably efficient terms, as really bringing about a spiritual effect.....

....The early Fathers were equally unanimous in affirming baptism as a means of grace. They all recognized the Bible’s teaching that "[In the ark] a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:20–21, emphasis added).

Protestant early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly writes, "From the beginning baptism was the
universally accepted rite of admission to the Church. . . . As regards its significance, it was always held to convey the remission of sins . . . we descend into the water ‘dead’ and come out again ‘alive’; we receive a white robe which symbolizes the Spirit . . .the Spirit is God himself dwelling in the believer, and the resulting life is a re-creation. Prior to baptism . . . our heart was the abode of demons . . . [but] baptism supplies us with the weapons for our spiritual warfare" (Early Christian Doctrines, 193–4).

Click the link to read ther early patristic quotes.
Source: "Baptismal Grace":
LINK: http://www.catholic.com/library/Baptismal_Grace.asp

 

[Vic C.]

Cleanup time. ALL posts not related to water baptism will be removed.

 

[Vic C.]

Turn, Marksman and CC and whoever else I missed, PLEASE stay on topic. I don't want to lock this thread permanently.

Thanks,
Vic

 

[turnorburn]

Thanks Vic that was much needed :

 

[dadof10]

I have YET to read in scripture where ANYONE was Baptized in a 'man-made' pool filled with stale water constructed in a building. Yet this is what has been accepted for this is what has been TAUGHT. Dirty water able to cleanse? I wonder........... As I have read Baptism was performed in RIVERS. And there was most likely a REASON that rivers were used. For the water in a River FLOWS. Cleanses itself CONSTANTLY. Yet a standing body of water has a tendency to be STAGNANT and UNCLEAN.

I didn't seem to matter to the Ethiopian eunuch what kind of water was used, or to Phillip, for that matter.

Acts 8: "And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?" 38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.

You are splitting hairs in order to justify an un-Biblical position, while completely ignoring the plain words of Scripture.

In your opinion, does the following verses refer to water baptism?

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him."

 

[stovebolts]

I have YET to read in scripture where ANYONE was Baptized in a 'man-made' pool filled with stale water constructed in a building. Yet this is what has been accepted for this is what has been TAUGHT. Dirty water able to cleanse? I wonder........... As I have read Baptism was performed in RIVERS. And there was most likely a REASON that rivers were used. For the water in a River FLOWS. Cleanses itself CONSTANTLY. Yet a standing body of water has a tendency to be STAGNANT and UNCLEAN.

Hey Mec,
Have you ever read the Didache? Also known as the TEACHING OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... tfoot.html

7:1 But concerning baptism, thus shall ye baptize.
7:2 Having first recited all these things, baptize {in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit} in living (running) water.
7:3 But if thou hast not living water, then baptize in other water;
7:4 and if thou art not able in cold, then in warm.
7:5 But if thou hast neither, then pour water on the head thrice in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

I didn't seem to matter to the Ethiopian eunuch what kind of water was used, or to Phillip, for that matter.

Apparently somebody (Perhaps the Apostles) thought enough about baptism to set a priority on a preferred 'type' of water. :wink:

 

[dadof10]

Apparently somebody (Perhaps the Apostles) thought enough about baptism to set a priority on a preferred 'type' of water. :wink:

Oh sure they did, either in the Apostles time or shortly thereafter, as you quoted in the Didache. I could be wrong, but I don't think MEC will accept ECF documents to either prove or disprove doctrine, or even practice. I had to stick to Scripture.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I have YET to read in scripture where ANYONE was Baptized in a 'man-made' pool filled with stale water constructed in a building.....

You have also yet to in scripture that it is not allowed. :-D

 

[dadof10]

This is quite normal for Catholics and Christians, "Protestants" to collide, so then you
say these posts are argumentative? that we chase people around denying them the chance to hear the glorious gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. No I think not, let me ask you a question if I may.
How do you know you are saved? what are you saved from? When did you meet Jesus
the year the day? these are all important questions :-D
Oh! one other question, where did CC go? :wink:

that YOU choose to follow as you do is OK. But when your attempts are designed to influence others to 'follow the leader' as you do, you ARE evangelizing and attempting to 'pull others' into YOUR faith. That is not only against the rules of the forums but something that YOU will bear the judgement of in times to come.

I would tread lightly here, MEC. This smacks of an accusation of people PURPOSEFULLY leading others away from Christ. I am pretty sure that everyone here (including you) believes with all our hearts that what we post is in keeping with the teachings of Christ.

I missed this with all the deleted posts and such. At the risk of going off topic, I'd like to respond:

First of all, who is Eddie? Secondly, I never claimed these posts were "argumentitive", nor "that we chase people around denying them the chance to hear the glorious gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". I don't know where you got that from the above post. I was responding to MEC's claim that CC would "bear the judgement " for simply explaining and debating his Catholic faith. EVERYONE here does the exact same thing, so my question would be, why will CC bear some kind of judgement that others will not?

Quickly, in answer to your questions, I know I was saved from the stain of original sin the moment I was baptized, because Scripture, as interpreted by the Church Jesus founded and guides to "all truth", tells me so. I am still in the process of "meeting Jesus", so to speak, every day in prayer. I'm trying to the best of my ability to build a relationship with Him and, since I am still a sinner, am in the process of being saved, by His Grace ALONE.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

....I know I was saved from the stain of original sin the moment I was baptized, because Scripture, as interpreted by the Church Jesus founded and guides to "all truth", tells me so. I am still in the process of "meeting Jesus", so to speak, every day in prayer. I'm trying to the best of my ability to build a relationship with Him and, since I am still a sinner, am in the process of being saved, by His Grace ALONE.

Well put. :D

 

[Imagican]

I have YET to read in scripture where ANYONE was Baptized in a 'man-made' pool filled with stale water constructed in a building. Yet this is what has been accepted for this is what has been TAUGHT. Dirty water able to cleanse? I wonder........... As I have read Baptism was performed in RIVERS. And there was most likely a REASON that rivers were used. For the water in a River FLOWS. Cleanses itself CONSTANTLY. Yet a standing body of water has a tendency to be STAGNANT and UNCLEAN.

I didn't seem to matter to the Ethiopian eunuch what kind of water was used, or to Phillip, for that matter.

Acts 8: "And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?" 38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.

You are splitting hairs in order to justify an un-Biblical position, while completely ignoring the plain words of Scripture.

In your opinion, does the following verses refer to water baptism?

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him."

dad,

you offered your response in indication that the 'kind' of water matters not. And as an indicated proof, you present scripture. But IN that scripture, there is NO indication whatsoever that the 'water' mentioned was NOT a 'river'. It simply states; 'some water'. While it does not say specifically the water was 'a river', anyone aware of the environment associated with that part of the world realizes that there was RARELY if EVER any 'standing water' in existence other than LAKES. Since it does NOT specify the nature of the water, it would be more prudent to believe that it WAS a lake or river than simply a 'puddle' of some sort. But MOST likely a 'river'.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

I have YET to read in scripture where ANYONE was Baptized in a 'man-made' pool filled with stale water constructed in a building. Yet this is what has been accepted for this is what has been TAUGHT. Dirty water able to cleanse? I wonder........... As I have read Baptism was performed in RIVERS. And there was most likely a REASON that rivers were used. For the water in a River FLOWS. Cleanses itself CONSTANTLY. Yet a standing body of water has a tendency to be STAGNANT and UNCLEAN.

Hey Mec,
Have you ever read the Didache? Also known as the TEACHING OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... tfoot.html

7:1 But concerning baptism, thus shall ye baptize.
7:2 Having first recited all these things, baptize {in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit} in living (running) water.
7:3 But if thou hast not living water, then baptize in other water;
7:4 and if thou art not able in cold, then in warm.
7:5 But if thou hast neither, then pour water on the head thrice in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

I didn't seem to matter to the Ethiopian eunuch what kind of water was used, or to Phillip, for that matter.

Apparently somebody (Perhaps the Apostles) thought enough about baptism to set a priority on a preferred 'type' of water. :wink:

Stove,

While I respect your opinion and appreciate your offering, once again we have here writtings that from ALL indication had LITTLE if ANYTHING to actually do with the apostles themselves, (from the evidence that we have concerning these documents).

yes, I am familiar with the 'Didache'. But I am also familiar with what is accepted concerning it's authenticity. most scholars believe that at the EARLIEST, these words were written around eighty to a hundred years AFTER Christ's death. Considering that the apostles were GROWN men at the time of Christ's ministry, it is MOST likely that ALL had gone to their graves well BEFORE 80 AD. Unless of couse, they were over a hundred years of age.

But what is MORE accepted is that the evidence indicates that these words were penned around the second century AD. Well after the CC had been formed and may have even been written by members of such using little other than OPINION in their offerings at times.

So, in this respect, MEN are able to 'say' just about anything concerning anything. That is not an indication of truth simply for the sake of someone 'saying it'.

But what we DO KNOW is that John Baptized in a River. Christ was Baptized in a river. And MOST that is offered concerning the PLACE of Baptism was Rivers.

Now, this subject is basically moot for we DO NOT have specific commandments concerning 'what kind of water' is to be used. I simply made the comment that there IS significance to WHY the river was used to 'start with'. Even in todays environment around civilization, water from rivers is MORE likely to be 'clean' than that that is standing. and in the past there were no laws or rules to govern the treatment of water. So standing water was MOST likely to be contaminated durring THAT time. No different than what we see today in countries that have no means of treating sewage and such. Not only animals contaminating the 'standing water' but humans as well. Just look at the conditions in Africa that are similar and you will get an idea of what I speak.

We have NO indication throughout scripture that ANYONE was EVER Baptized in 'well water'. But we DO have the indication of Christ offering that He was able to offer water that could be DRUNK so that the one drinking would 'never thirst' again.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Cleanup time. ALL posts not related to water baptism will be removed.

thanks vic, I was wondering if you's guys was followin this thread.

MEC