Water Baptism, is that ENOUGH?

[Imagican]

I have YET to read in scripture where ANYONE was Baptized in a 'man-made' pool filled with stale water constructed in a building.....

You have also yet to in scripture that it is not allowed. :-D

No, CC, I haven't. But then I will offer how DANGEROUS it is to use this type of reasoning when learning or teaching things pertaining to God or Christ. The use of drugs is not specifically condemned in the Word either but I doubt there are many that would deny the dangers inherent in their abuse.

And CC, once again, let me offer that I have NO issues with the act of Baptism ITSELF. What we are discussing here is whether it's ENOUGH for one to be 'saved'. Also whether it IN ITSELF is the 'sign of a TRUE' Christian. I have my doubts on BOTH accounts and have done my best to point them out both scripturally and Spiritually. Regardless of what MEN have offered through churches for seventeen hundred years or even two thousand years has little bearing on the truth simply because they offered it in word or writtings. For we have plain words offered BY the apostles that MANY had gone out FROM THEM and were teaching LIES while they were still ALIVE.

So, holy water, baptismals, etc......While they are TAUGHT to be the NORM or the 'way' does NOT have any pertinent backing from a scriptural reference. These are 'man-made' traditions that have been taught for centuries but with little proofs offered through scripture. Regardless of what people 'believe', that does NOT make it so.

I have seen some of the most rediculous offerings imaginable on television concerning; personal Baptism 'kit's, bottles of 'holy water', personal prayers, slapping people in the forehead to 'heal them'. And ALL things things for a 'price'. Making merchandise of those that are so simple as to 'fall for them'. No different than much that has been taught concerning Baptism. The ONLY difference is the brazeness and absurdity that we witness in those that exist NOW verses then, (times past).

What we REALLY NEED to do is trust in God and His Son rather than the deceptions institiuted by men in their lusts for power and lucre. IF we are able to do this, then we can clearly see that it's NOT 'ritual' and 'pomp' that pleases God, but the love that we are able to offer Him and each other. That those that are able to become Spiritually circucised have LITTLE NEED for that which is but a semblance of the truth.

But, I can assure you and anyone reading these words, there will ALWAYS be those that are able to be convinced OTHERWISE. That 'someone' will teach that there is 'someTHING' that we are able to DO that is able to bring us 'closer to God' or offer 'forgiveness' in 'someOTHER way' than what has been offered through sciripture and Spirit. Just the NATURE of the 'old man'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[dadof10]

you offered your response in indication that the 'kind' of water matters not. And as an indicated proof, you present scripture. But IN that scripture, there is NO indication whatsoever that the 'water' mentioned was NOT a 'river'. It simply states; 'some water'. While it does not say specifically the water was 'a river', anyone aware of the environment associated with that part of the world realizes that there was RARELY if EVER any 'standing water' in existence other than LAKES. Since it does NOT specify the nature of the water, it would be more prudent to believe that it WAS a lake or river than simply a 'puddle' of some sort. But MOST likely a 'river'.

MEC

The point is that the eunuch said "look, at the side of the road, there is some water". He didn't ask if it was the right kind of water. It seems that any water would do, even just "side of the road" water. It is amazing to me that the kind of water used is such a huge deal to a person that discounts water baptism as merely a symbol that has nothing to do with salvation. Are you trying to deflect the OP? Is water baptism enough? Here is the question AGAIN:

You are splitting hairs in order to justify an un-Biblical position, while completely ignoring the plain words of Scripture.

In your opinion, does the following verses refer to water baptism?

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

 

[Vic C.]

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

That is what was said. It doesn't say "some water, it says "here is water". It also says they came upon "a certain water". While I won't go as far as MEC and assume it was a river, I will say this "certain" water allowed for immersion. My reason why, besides being So. Baptist ;-) , is this verse:

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

This was no mere puddle or shallow wading pond. 8-)

 

[dadof10]

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

That is what was said. It doesn't say "some water, it says "here is water". It also says they came upon "a certain water". While I won't go as far as MEC and assume it was a river, I will say this "certain" water allowed for immersion. My reason why, besides being So. Baptist ;-) , is this verse:

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

This was no mere puddle or shallow wading pond. 8-)

I was paraphrasing, and don't think I did THAT much damage to the Text :P .

The RSV says "And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?".

To me, the manner of water Baptism is not relevant to this thread. What's important is whether it is a mere symbolic gesture or it actually confers Grace, whether it actually saves. Certainly immersion is a valid baptism, but nowhere does Scripture rule out sprinkling.

Sprinkling developed in the Church over time, as stated in an earlier quote on this thread from the Didache. Besides what does it matter if it's not necessary for salvation and a mere symbol? You could use river water, sea water, sprinkle, spray with a hose, douse with a bucket, whatever. All you have to say is "this is symbolic of X, and this is why".

 

[turnorburn]

 

[Dan Edwin]

WHY WATER BAPTISM

Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5). We need to be born of water AND the Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God.

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them (with water) in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (Matthew 28:19). Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized (with water) in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). We are baptized with water to have past sins forgiven to be born of water; and born of the Spirit (saved) by being made alive together with the Spirit when forgiven of all trespasses. He has made us alive together with Him (saved), having forgiven you all trespasses, (Colossians 2:13b).

When forgiven of all trespasses, we “die†with Christ to the authority of the Mosaic Law and the curse by being joined together with the Spirit of Christ into His death; and are made alive together with Christ (saved) by the Spirit being the life within us.

God set forth Christ Jesus to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (Romans 3:25). Believers are baptized with water to have past sins forgiven, which saves us by clearing our mind of guilt and condemnation. There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1 Peter 3:21).

For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized (with water) in the name of the Lord Jesus (Acts 8:16). They had “only been baptized (with water) in the name of Jesus Christâ€Â. To “only be baptized†(with water) is an act of faith by which we are forgiven of past sins, but we are not saved until we are made alive together with the Spirit. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13). It is the Spirit within us that makes us members of the body of Christ. (Note: as we review these verses, we need to recognize this was when the church first began. After the Spirit was received, it began being passed on through intimate relationships between men with woman and the Spirit thereby in their offspring.)

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21).

Those who practice the works of the flesh (unrighteousness) are not of the Spirit and shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. Works of the flesh in today’s world include: pornography, gambling, and drug abuse. Jesus answered, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5). Everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him (1 John 2:29b).

He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. // he who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. // whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. (1 John 3:7b-10)

Trust the Lord, and God bless.

 

[Imagican]

dad,

I'm am CERTAINLY NOT discounting Baptism. Once again, i am simply trying to place it in it's proper perspective.

We are NOT to believe in Baptism but 'what it STANDS for'. i do NOT worship Baptism simply for the sake of itself. I accept it for what it has been stated to be.

Believe me, If I could simply accept this ONE offering my life would be much easier; that water Baptism is ALL it takes to be saved. But how many do you suppose that BELIEVE this will NOT receive life eternal? For I have already offered that there will be those in their time that will point out TO CHRIST all the wonderous things that they have 'done in HIs name'. And to these His reply will be that He doesn't even know who they are. Now, do you believe that these would be 'any other' than those that were Baptised in water IN HIS NAME'? Since ALL the denominations of Christianity believe in 'water Baptism', it would be foolish NOT to assume that those in reference above had NOT been Baptized in water. What professing Christian would NOT be Baptized in water? And WHO besides Baptized Christians would do ANYTHING in the 'name of Christ'.

Look, the concept isn't that difficult to understand. Baptism alone means LITTLE if anything at all. if it did, then I could have three of my boys grab people one at a time, dunk em under water and given enough time, we could 'save the world' in spite of itself.

Oh, and the river thing. i have simply offered valid information concerning 'what kind of water' is indicated in 'water Baptism'. I simply offered my OWN doubts as to whether or not we were meant to 'build' a 'stagnant pond' in the back of a building that we use to Baptise. It may matter it may not. But it seems rediculous to believe that dirty water is able to cleanse. And IF the water is NOT running, wouldn't the sins of the one Baptized BEFORE you simply saturate YOUR garments upon emersion?

I DON'T know that is matters. But what I have offered is no more ludicrous than those that believe that ALL they need do is BE Baptized in water to receive life eternal.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

That is what was said. It doesn't say "some water, it says "here is water". It also says they came upon "a certain water". While I won't go as far as MEC and assume it was a river, I will say this "certain" water allowed for immersion. My reason why, besides being So. Baptist ;-) , is this verse:

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

This was no mere puddle or shallow wading pond. 8-)

I was paraphrasing, and don't think I did THAT much damage to the Text :P .

The RSV says "And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?".

To me, the manner of water Baptism is not relevant to this thread. What's important is whether it is a mere symbolic gesture or it actually confers Grace, whether it actually saves. Certainly immersion is a valid baptism, but nowhere does Scripture rule out sprinkling.

Sprinkling developed in the Church over time, as stated in an earlier quote on this thread from the Didache. Besides what does it matter if it's not necessary for salvation and a mere symbol? You could use river water, sea water, sprinkle, spray with a hose, douse with a bucket, whatever. All you have to say is "this is symbolic of X, and this is why".

dad,

I have YET to say that it means NOTHING or that it doesn't matter. i have simply tried over and over to place it in it's proper perspective.

I believe water Baptism CAN BE a 'beautiful thing'. But I do not believe that much of what is taught of Baptism by the churches has relevance to the basic premiss of water Baptism.

There IS 'another Baptism' which we have barely spoken of. I believe that it is THIS Baptism that is able to truly allow Christ into one's heart. Don't want to argue about it but the Bible does specifically mention it and it's importance.

To clarify my position: I am NOT encouraging a 'lack of Baptism'. Simply trying to offer to those that have no understanding that the churches have taught it in 'their OWN light' and this oftentimes has been able to influence others in ways that are not Biblical. We can see by the myriad forms that it has been altered from that taught in The Word.

But I will offer that there is MUCH more to following Christ than simply being dunked or sprinkled. The water was but a 'small part' of His teachings and one that is NOT the MOST important as has been taught by some.

So, get your heart right, be Baptized, and follow Christ. But do NOT be led into an over simplification of it's purpose. For as many that have 'eaten' unrighteously now sleep, I BELIEVE, so too have many that have been Baptized in water unrighteously will pay as well. I believe that it's important to make sure one's heart is in the RIGHT place before they make ANY such commitments. For the Bible SPECIFICALLY states that 'them that believe AND are Baptized' indicating that it's imperitive that one TRULY believes BEFORE being Baptized.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Oh, and thanks Vic. i know that you don't agree with what much of what I have offered here but your comment was certainly relevant to this conversation.

We cannot know for a fact 'what water' is to be used. But we CAN certainly know that water as offered in scriture is righteous.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Dan Edwin]

Where the water comes from or what kind of water is not important. It is the faith displayed by the willingness of the believer to be baptized that God bestows His grace.

 

[turnorburn]

I grew 50 more gray hairs following this 30 page tribute to water baptism

 

[dadof10]

dad,

I'm am CERTAINLY NOT discounting Baptism. Once again, i am simply trying to place it in it's proper perspective.

We are NOT to believe in Baptism but 'what it STANDS for'. i do NOT worship Baptism simply for the sake of itself. I accept it for what it has been stated to be.

First, I do not worship baptism, nor does any Catholic.

If you mean "stated" in Scripture, you have to deal with these verses:

Mt 28 "And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

It is obvious that this is water baptism and very important.

""For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him."

Water baptism saves. There is no other way to interpret this.

I will limit this to two. I think I have less of a chance of being ignored, again. :o

 

[Imagican]

dad,

I have not intentionally ignored anything. Water did NOT save Noah. Water was the means by which the world was DESTROYED. Noah was saved 'THROUGH' water. There IS a difference.

Is water able to 'save'? I can't answer that question and won't even try except to say that 'water ALONE' in my opinion, means LITTLE.

CAN it be 'an important thing'? Likely. But only if one is able to 'live up to it'. For what I have gathered from scripture is that water Baptism is a 'committment'. Nothing more, nothing less. And while we are unable to secure salvation through 'works', we ARE able to make decisions concerning ANY committment we make. When we 'choose' to become Baptized in water, what we are doing is confessing our BELIEF. And IF our belief is misguided or WRONG, then I don't see that 'water Baptism' is able to do ANYTHING but condemn us.

So, the churches certainly teach their followers to accept and believe in Baptism in ways NEVER offered up in scripture. And MANY have chosen to follow such beliefs. I believe that there is a 'bit more' to it than simply accepting what 'churches teach'. For churches that we observe today are LED by MEN rather than God through Christ. That is perfectly clear in their continous lauding of 'their way' rather than attempting to simply follow what we have been offered through scripture.

Since you brought up the subject, (I have purposely avoided it to the BEST of my ability), where does 'sprinkling' fit in to the 'water Baptism' that is offered up in The Word? I mean there is NO mention of such a practice in the ENTIRE Bible. So, even IF Baptism IS the important issue that YOU state that it IS, then why aren't YOU following the descriptive means by which is it was accomplished in EVERY instance in which we HAVE a description. The answer simply leads RIGHT back to the premiss that i started with: you have simply accepted and 'bought into' what MEN have created and taught you. i do NOT fault you for your choice. But I would certainly warn othersn not to follow ANY organization or men so blindly.

Regardless of what your church or ANY church teaches, we have been COMMANDED to compare scripture with scripture. WE have been told to do so. We were NEVER told to 'blindly follow' ANYONE. if anything, we were told NOT to follow anything BUT scripture and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. For there is not ONE that is righteous, no NOT ONE. With these words in mind, it would indicate that we are certainly able to LISTEN to others in what they have to offer. But it would be utter foolishness to blindly follow ANYONE no matter WHAT they have to say. For there is but ONE God and ONE Son. And it is to these that we are to place our faith.

And no matter how much you insist upon what 'your CHURCH' teaches you, the scripture that you have offered offers no such intent or understanding. And dad, until this conversation, (thread), I never realized how MUCH importance the CC places in 'water Baptism'. For we were instructed by John, the FIRST Baptizer, that there was one coming AFTER him that was able to offer a BETTER Baptism. And we can clearly see in Acts that upon Pentacost, that this BETTER Baptism was manifest. And it STILL exists today. There are those that ARE Baptized IN The Spirit today as there was then. And, in my opinion, it is THIS Baptism that is able to 'save'. Simply 'putting' water on someone or even 'dunking' them under is able to offer little other than a 'committment' of the individual being so Baptized. And even then, they are NOT bound to the LIVE the committment regardless. Maybe, maybe not. But the water itself is NOT able to 'transform' as many have been led to believe. For it IS the Baptism of Spirit that is able to bring about the circumcision of the heart. And this is NOT simply an outward committment that one is able to utterly ignore if they wish. Once one has been Spiritually Baptised, there is 'no way' that they could EVER deny again.

The biggest REASON that 'water Baptism' has become SO much MORE important than Spiritual Baptism is that there are SO FEW that are able to recognize the later in these times. So in order to give the congregation 'something' to PHYSICALLY take part in, the churches teach what they teach as concerns 'water Baptism'. For this is ALL that THEY can offer. They have NO control over the Spirit yet they ARE able to exhibit this 'water Baptism' and TEACH that it is ABLE to perform the 'cleansing' that you are so quick to explain.

Water Baptism CERTAINLY has it's PLACE in the lives of Christians. But not to the extent that they RELY on IT to do ANYTHING. It's NOT the ritual that has ANY bearing on the lives of those that participate. It's the INTENT in one's heart that is able to make it of ANY significance.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Perhaps this will convey my message BETTER than ANYTHING that I have previously offered:

Let us follow this scenario..................

From birth, I have taken an individual and placed them in a BOX. I feed them and keep them alive but allow them NO interaction or ability to BE Baptized in water, FOR THEIR WHOLE LIFE. Now, is there any doubt in ANYONE'S mind that God is STILL able to offer Salvation to this individual? That IF He so chose, He COULD reveal Himself TO this individual and that through their FAITH in that revelation they could indeed be SAVED?

Simply answer this and you will clearly see what I have attempted to offer in this entire thread: Water Baptism is NOT 'THE way'. There is MUCH MORE to receiving the gift that has been offered than simply following a 'man-made' ritual. For even to this day we have so little information offered as to the actual words spoken at Baptising or even the EXACT method in which it was performed for ANYONE to place such emphasis on it as it offered through the churches. And IF the Water Baptism offered up in scripture was AS important as the churches teach, then we would have SURELY been offered the EXACT 'way' in which it should be performed. For we can look back at the OT and see that so far as 'ritual' was concerned, anytime something of such MONUMENTAL importance was taught, EXACT instruction was given so that there could be NO DOUBT as to HOW it was to BE performed.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[turnorburn]

dad of 10 said "Water baptism saves" "There is no other way to interpret this"
"I will limit this to two. I think I have less of a chance of being ignored, again"

Well you certainly got my attention question is how loud do you want me to scream to tell you that your wrong? I mean come on this thread began in March, so are we just

around?

I will limit this to one, do I here none :

 

[Pogo]

Imagician -

Having offered my views, and finally gotten a grasp on your perspective, I've been content to follow this thread at a distance, as I do a lot of others, hoping to find a nugget here and there.

Hence, let me ask for clarification on one of your points.

In your most recent post, you are calling the act of water baptism a "'man-made' ritual."

I'm still thinking that this rite is one that has been bound by Jesus Christ.

I know that you know that the scriptures state - that there is only one baptism...the Great Commission, go and baptize...the only way one person can baptize another is with water...etc.

Your thoughts please!

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[turnorburn]

 

[dadof10]

dad,

I have not intentionally ignored anything. Water did NOT save Noah. Water was the means by which the world was DESTROYED. Noah was saved 'THROUGH' water. There IS a difference.

Yes you have. It's a simple yes or no question. I'll post it again.

In your opinion, do the following verses refer to water baptism?

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him."

CAN it be 'an important thing'? Likely. But only if one is able to 'live up to it'. For what I have gathered from scripture is that water Baptism is a 'committment'. Nothing more, nothing less. And while we are unable to secure salvation through 'works', we ARE able to make decisions concerning ANY committment we make. When we 'choose' to become Baptized in water, what we are doing is confessing our BELIEF. And IF our belief is misguided or WRONG, then I don't see that 'water Baptism' is able to do ANYTHING but condemn us.

Here is another question that has been ignored. Where does Scripture give this definition of Baptism??? Chapter and verse please.

I have been posting these two questions that get to the heart of the matter, in my opinion, since mid May, and have yet to see one verse or one yes-or-no answer. You can choose to not answer these questions AGAIN, but please don't claim you are not ignoring them.

Watch carefully. Here is how you answer a direct question.

From birth, I have taken an individual and placed them in a BOX. I feed them and keep them alive but allow them NO interaction or ability to BE Baptized in water, FOR THEIR WHOLE LIFE. Now, is there any doubt in ANYONE'S mind that God is STILL able to offer Salvation to this individual?

O.K., here it comes: NO, there is no doubt that this person can be saved, your "scenario" is an extreme example.

Now here comes the explanation:

The normal way of salvation is this:
1) Infant baptism to remove original sin, and give the soul sanctifying grace. At this moment the person is saved. This is PURE GRACE. It doesn't need to be EARNED by "accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour".
2) The person can lose that salvation through their actions (works), therefore is REQUIRED to repent when he sins and, with the help of frequent reception of the Sacraments, prayer, charity, etc, allow his soul to be made by God into one capable of enjoying Heaven.

There are many other ways God can save a person and it all depends on the situation. We believe people who have never heard of Jesus and therefore could not believe in Him, can still be saved by His merits. They will be judged by their consciences. There are those who will be saved by faith alone at the last moments of their lives, like the Thief on the cross. This is the exception rather than the norm, as is the person in your "scenario".

O.K. your turn. :-D

 

[dadof10]

dad of 10 said "Water baptism saves" "There is no other way to interpret this"
"I will limit this to two. I think I have less of a chance of being ignored, again"

Well you certainly got my attention question is how loud do you want me to scream to tell you that your wrong? I mean come on this thread began in March, so are we just

around?

I will limit this to one, do I here none :

Go ahead and scream I'm wrong all you want to, just back it up with some kind of logic. Silly pictures don't prove your point.

 

[turnorburn]

This is the exception rather than the norm, as is the person in your "scenario".

The norm in our country is go to church listen to the message believe the message be baptized, this is all in obedience and is prim and proper, but what do you do when things aren't prim and proper :smt014