dadof10 said:
Imagican said:
I ask this of ANYONE in attendance on this forum: What is the EXACT method of 'water Baptism' as offered up in SCRIPTURE? Who can tell me EXACTLY 'how' one is to BE Baptized in water. What water, when, where, and what WORDS are to be spoken in order for Baptism to BE effective in bringing about cleansing or 're-birth'?
When all these questions are answered, will you admit that this "Scriptural" method of water baptism, however you define it, saves, as it says in 1Pt??
New questions: What are the EXACT books that are considered inpired as offered up in Scripture? How EXACTLY are the verses to be laid out? Whose version, how many pages, what kind of ink, what color binding, gold leaf, or not? When I get these answers, I'll accept the Bible as the Word of God, until then I'll simply consider the Bible a "man-made tradition". Sound reasonable??? :crazyeyes:
I cannot agree with something that I cannot see. I do NOT see 'water Baptism' ALONE as being able to 'save'.
So far as your second question:
I only KNOW what has transpired in MY life through the 'written words' inspiration. I cannot say anything concerning your question other than this: I believe that the Bible IS inspired by God. Whether EACH word or EACH book is OF God I cannot say. But I can say that MUCH of what is offered up in scripture, in my opinion, IS truth. But I will also add that I believe that MUCH of it has been altered from it's original in the favor of beliefs held by those that WROTE it. And I am a devout KJV Bible reader and studier. Not that it is PURELY without flaw, but I believe that it's about as close as we have to what was offered up in the original documents that it was transcribed from.
But dad, this is a bit extreme in example. While the words and method of 'water Baptism' may well have an effect on it's intended purpose, I really don't see how the color of the ink used to write words is able to do anything so far as ALTER the meaning. The books used or the translation is up to the individual to accept or deny as 'truth'.
But 'water Baptism' on the other hand, there was most certainly a 'method' used. That we have been offered so little as TO this method is an indication to me that it may WELL NOT be as important as MANY have been led to believe.
I believe that anyone that BELIEVES in Christ and is willing to commit themselves TO Christ should be Baptized in water. But I DON'T believe that it is a 'determining factor' of whether one is 'saved' or 'not saved'. Could it? I can't deny POSSIBILITIES. But I can say that I have not been convicted in the direction that the churches would have me 'believe'. For I KNOW that God is able to DO as God chooses to DO and that what WE do so far as ritual is able to DO little, so far as scripture is concerned, other than CONDEMN. For we see that we were told to 'do this in rememberance', yet MOST of what we have through scripture is description of how it was ABUSED and what the consequences for such abuse were. I believe that it works the SAME way with ALL ritual. That we need BEWARE of what we promise and make SURE that we mean it or SUFFER the consequences.
The traditional means by which the ancients chose to be Baptized was at the LATER stages of their lives. I believe that they may have been 'on to something'. For they waited until they were SURE that they were READY to FOLLOW Christ BEFORE making such a ritualistic and sybolic gesture.
For, HOW often must we put Christ to DEATH if upon the FIRST time that we are 'Baptized' we are NOT able to follow as we have PROMISED? Again and again? Now that seems like cruel and unusaual punishment if you ask me.
Circumcision of the heart or 'Spiritual Baptism' is what I believe is that which able to truly bring one closer to God through His Son. How to explain how to obtain this is a difficult thing to do indeed. While it is difficult to 'tell someone HOW' they are able to BE born again Spiritually, those that have 'been born again' are able to relate to each other in a way that shows that it is a similar experience to ALL who have 'truly been born again'.
But no matter how many words that I may offer, they are STILL not able to 'bring one' to God. That is something that takes place between an individual and God Himself. Who chooses or who is chosen is a debate that has been waged since the inception of Christianity. As many OPINIONS as there are PEOPLE claiming to BE 'born again'. So, I will rest in my understanding and accept what has been offered to ME and pass that on to others. What THEY do with it from there is up to them and The Spirit. For mine is NOT to 'save others'. I have NO such ability. But what I DO have is testimony and witness as to the wonderous things that have been accomplished THROUGH Christ in my LIFE. It is an enticing testimony and to some I'm quite sure able to move them in the RIGHT direction so long as they have an open heart and a desire to KNOW God through His Son.
But you WON"T catch me preaching that one MUST be Baptized in order to BE saved. I encourage those that are willing to make the committment to BE Baptized but even then would NEVER tell ANYONE that they MUST be Baptized in order to BE 'saved'.
Blessings,
MEC
