Water Baptism, is that ENOUGH?

[francisdesales]

I am well aware of how the churches teach the sacredness of certain 'things' or 'rituals' such as 'water Baptism'. I simply do not agree that they hold the places of importance as offered by them.

Then you preach a false gospel and do not trust the Scriptures and HOW we are united to Christ...

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.Romans 6:3-7

The very beginning of Acts also teaches we are freed from sin by baptism, implemented by men, a royal "last" command of the Lord (Mat 28:16-20)

God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:36-38

The problem I see is trying to set up some sort of 'bus ticket', an event that we can do something, say something, and POOF! We are going to heaven no matter what.

"Salvation" is the remission of sins, not to enter heaven no matter what!!!

Consider what salvation and redemption was to the Jews by heeding the words of Zacharias, the father of John the Baptist:

That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel. Luke 1:74-80

Again, salvation, redemption, is the remission of sins. Why this talk about "does baptism allow people to enter heaven???" Salvation is the remission of sins - and baptism ALWAYS removes sins, thus, we are ALWAYS saved by baptism - when we define redemption as the Bible defines it.

What does Jesus say the reason He came here? To form a New Covenant between God and man by what?

And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Mat 26:26-27

Thus, salvation is NOT eternal heaven when we discuss baptism. It is freedom from sin, redemption and entrance into a New Covenant, in where God's promise through Ezekiel is established...

Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Ez 36: 25-27

Baptism is promised, and the effects of which are very clearly described in the New Testament, for example, as Peter says above. We are given a New Spirit, our hearts are purified and we are enabled to walk in the Lord's statues - Romans 8 clearly points this out. This is not brain surgery, my brothers...

THe purpose of baptism is the remission of sins, a starting of a new relationship with the Lord. THAT is what such arguments on this thread are missing, the remission of sins and a beginning of a relationship. If we remain in our relationship with the Lord, sure, we'll enter the Kingdom of Heaven. We enter into our relationship with Christ's Passion and Death through Baptism, a ritual through which God sends His Spirit and a NEW LIFE is formed, one is BORN FROM ABOVE.

I am amazed this thread has gone on this long... This is instrumental to being a Christian and the Scriptures and Apostolic Teachings on the matter have been very clear. Only people with an agenda - destruction of any ritual that ties man to God - explains the supposed confusion of what the Bible clearly points out to those who would read and heed.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

1Cor 1:

[11] For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
[12] Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
[13] Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
[14] I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
[15] Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
[16] And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
[17] For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.


Fran,

What you have offered has little bearing on my words. I have not simply taken a stance based on nothing other than a desire to 'go against' what has been offered. What I have attempted to do is show that the devices of the churches play little part in understanding Baptism through scripture.

The Baptizing that we witness TODAY has evolved over many centuries into what we SEE now. Is it INDEED what was offered THEN? I think NOT. For I have found NO evidence of 'holy water' sprinkled in ones face, nor have I found evidence of 'man-made pools' of water used to Baptize. While YOU would maintain that these such rituals were 'created' by 'inspired individuals', I have no such evidence to place MY faith in such.

Now, what about the words offered by Paul above? We can clearly see that Baptism had become a 'thorn of contention' among those to which Paul addressed with these words. That those that were Baptized by certain individuals had begun to THINK that they were 'special' according to WHO they had been Baptized BY. And this is a 'good thing'? Not really any different than what we witness today in that one is able to DO exactly the SAME thing; I am Baptized into the BAPTIST faith, I am Baptized into the Catholic faith, I am Baptized into the Pentacostal faith............ The EXACT same schism we witness in the words of Paul that was taking place in Corrinth.

The words written by Paul were NOT words of encouragement to CONTINUE in such practices but words of REBUKE in that these people had NOT 'grown IN Christ' but remained steadfast, caught up in the OLD MAN without the 'cleansing or growth' that YOU would maintain is performed in 'water Baptism'.

Note the words; "I thank God that I Baptized NONE of YOU",,,,,,Now, IF 'water Baptism' was AS important an issue as you have offered, HOW could Paul POSSIBLY offer such words? For such words according to YOUR belief would be no different than Paul offering UTTER condemnation to ALL that he was speaking to.

Then note and please explain what is offered in these words, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

And Fran, there are NOT 'my words'. These were offered by an Apostle of Christ; The apostle that we have MOST instruction from.

Sybolically water Baptism DOES exactly what you have offered. But what Baptizm was John the Baptist refering to when he stated that there was one coming AFTER him that would offer a BETTER Baptism?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

.

 

[turnorburn]

The topic the topic we're derailing friends somebody please get us back on track, we've come this far 33 rails and climbing lets make it for the Gipper.

Btw Water Baptism isn't enough :smt090

 

[francisdesales]

1Cor 1:

[11] For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
[12] Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
[13] Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
[14] I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
[15] Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
[16] And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
[17] For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Yes, some desperate people are willing to make the assertion that Paul meant "I don't consider baptism important, I can't even remember if I ever baptized someone. It's a worthless ritual that we invented and now, I think we are regretting it..."'

Naturally, Paul isn't disagreeing with himself in Romans when he says the MEANS by which we are united to Christ is THROUGH Baptism, something that the Scriptures tells us over and over that we are redeemed, saved, from sins. The remission of sins is salvation, and it is by faith that we are saved as a result of the Spirit coming to us through the "cleansing waters of Baptism".

Now, you would tell us that Paul can't make up his mind WHAT Baptism is, and naturally, Jesus words at the very end of Matthew are simply silly little "suggestions? The LAST words He says as He ascends to the Father is BAPTIZE THEM....

Your words are indeed separating men from the Word.

The intent of Paul in Corinthians that you quote above is to stress that the little groups developing in Corinth was over who baptized them. Did Peter baptize you? Paul? Apollos? "OOOHHH, I'm better because Peter baptized me..."

Paul says this is unimportant. The minister of Baptism is inconsequential. The Pope could baptize someone, and it is NO BETTER than anyone else. IT IS GOD'S SPIRIT THAT MAKES BAPTISM IMPORTANT AND EFFECTIVE. That is the meaning of Paul to the Corinthians.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Btw Water Baptism isn't enough :smt090

Wrong. Read my Scripturally full post above. We are redeemed from sin. Baptism is given for the remission of sins - THAT IS SALVATION.

Forget about that bus ticket to heaven. Baptism nor being saved has nothing to do with that invention. Sins are forgiven as a result of Baptism.

Always. Everyday. Everytime....

God's work through Baptism is for the salvation of men BY the remission of sins.

It is enough. Have no further doubt, God has saved us from sin by baptism. ;-)

Regards

 

[Catholic Crusader]

....And Fran, there are NOT 'my words'. These were offered by an Apostle of Christ....

...and you have twisted them totally out of context. The GREAT COMMISSION that Jesus' gave to the Apostles was: "....make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you....."

Those are JESUS CHRIST'S words, and his command to the apostles to BAPTISE

 

[dadof10]

Mat. 3

[11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
[12] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Ok guys, what is refered to here: is it 'water Baptism' that John is refering to when he STATES that Christ will offer a Baptism that is 'greater' than that which he offered? Plain and simple question. Is John refering to Chirst Baptizing with WATER?

No, he's not. He's refering to baptism "with the Holy Ghost, and with fire".

He is also not calling Christ's baptism "greater", he's calling Christ greater. These verses in no way diminish either the importance or the sacramentality of water baptism. These verses don't speak to the OP at all.

 

[dadof10]

Btw Water Baptism isn't enough :smt090

Care to elaborate?

 

[Pogo]

There is only one baptism.

And, while it, by itself, isn't enough...it is still absolutely necessary.

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[Catholic Crusader]

There is only one baptism.

And, while it, by itself, isn't enough...it is still absolutely necessary.

In Christ,

Pogo

I agree with your post as worded. Although, I'll bet we differ on the effects of Baptism. But why ruin a nice "agreeing moment"? :-D

 

[dadof10]

There is only one baptism.

And, while it, by itself, isn't enough...it is still absolutely necessary.

For salvation???

 

[one_lost_coin]

I think Pogo may be getting at Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned.

He seems to want to acknowledge its need and I assume additionally point out we must persevere in the faith till the end.

If that is not accurate Pogo please correct me.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I think Pogo may be getting at Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned.

He seems to want to acknowledge its need and additionally point out we must persevere in the faith till the end.

If that is not accurate Pogo please correct me.

I don't know about him, but I like it. :-D

 

[Imagican]

....And Fran, there are NOT 'my words'. These were offered by an Apostle of Christ....

...and you have twisted them totally out of context. The GREAT COMMISSION that Jesus' gave to the Apostles was: "....make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you....."

Those are JESUS CHRIST'S words, and his command to the apostles to BAPTISE

CC,

Are YOU an apostle? Is you PRIEST an APOSTLE? So, by the very nature of your OWN words you negate what you would have us BELIEVE. Think about it...........

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Fran,

Nothing 'desperate' in my words. NOTHING. i have simply pointed out that IF 'water Baptism' was AS important as YOU or those that believe LIKE you would have ME believe, then Paul would NEVER have made the statement that I quoted.

While I agree wholeheartedly that it was NOT the Baptism itself that Paul was speaking of but THOSE that had Baptized, that does NOT alter the words that Paul spoke. I have taken NOTHING out of context, simply offered what was offered in regards to Paul's words concerning the topic.

Now, lets step back from YOUR 'tradition' and simply face the FACTS offered up in scripture:

How often does CHRIST Himself even MENTION 'water Baptism' in the ENTIRETY of the four Gospels?

Now, how many OTHER 'things' does Christ mention concerning HOW we are to receive what is offered so far as forgiveness and redemption? Boy, the list is quite large; Those that do NOT forgive their neighbors will NOT be forgiven by God, (no mention HERE of 'water Baptism' signifying ANY ability to TEACH forgiveness. Love, I find no words offering that 'water Baptism' is able to TEACH love. Treating others as we wish to be treated, no 'water Baptism' here. Loving God above EVERYTHING else, no 'water Baptism' here. Believing that Christ IS the Son of God, no mention of 'water Baptism' here. i could go on and on like this.

Now, YOU quote to me HOW MANY TIMES that Christ STATES that ANYONE MUST BE BAPTIZED in order to receive the gift that is offered through His death and ressurection. i believe that you will find that there is SO MUCH MORE that Christ offers that has NOTHING to do with 'water Baptism'. And, and this is a pretty BIG 'and', Is there MORE than ONE Baptism? Is EVERY reference in the Word to Baptism in reference to 'water Baptism'? And, is the BETTER Baptism mentioned by John the Baptist 'water Baptism'? And if you have the ability to say YES, then WHY did Christ Himself NEVER ONCE Baptize another? Yet we know the account at Pentacost. Was this NOT the Baptism refered to by John? For IT more than any other resembles the EXACT words offered up by John the Baptist in his direct description of this 'better Baptism'.

Guys, once again you attack my words from the tradition taught to you by the 'churches'. That has little if ANY bearing on what IS 'truth'. What they teach may well be, but may actually have NO bearing on the truth whatsoever. For we can clearly see that IF they are teaching the truth, then the truth is FILLED with opposites and contradictions. For EVERY denomination teaches DIFFERENT understandings of WHAT The 'truth' IS. And this is IMPOSSIBLE to 'be' truth. For there can be ONLY ONE TRUTH and everything that is NOT truth is a LIE. Whether it is intentional or through ignorance, that TOO has NO bearing on 'the truth'. It either IS or it ISN'T.

What I have tried to offer is the KNOWLEDGE to those that have YET to be 'brainwashed' by the churches that it does NOT HAVE to be DONE 'their way'. These are MOSTLY lost souls attempting to convince OTHERS that they are NOT. And through an insistence that THEY KNOW the 'truth' and others FOLLOW them, this is ENOUGH for them to continue in their teachings.

Instead of simply ACCEPTING what 'others' would 'have you believe', I would encourage EVERYONE to 'pick up the book' and start READING and PRAYING for guidance. And ANYONE too lazy to take up my challenge, may as well FOLLOW others that are JUST as lost as they are. At least you'll be in the 'right company'.

Itching ears folks. We were WARNED. And it seems that the churches know JUST what to offer 'itching ears'. For the pews are quite crowded each Sunday when the doors open. And the MORE 'self' that these churches teach, the LARGER the crowds each Sunday. The MORE 'rock and roll' that they introduce, the more FUN that they incorporate in their service and the MORE entertainment the BIGGER the crowds, kind of like the Fair. If this is not 'catering to itching ears' then I guess I'm just a confused individual that has NO understanding whatsoever.

But, you WON'T hear me encourangin this type of 'religion'. For that is EXACTLY what we SEE in the churches today. And 'religion' is NOTHING other than what ONE believes. And as humans, we are able to believe just about ANYTHING that we are able to imagine.

Water Baptism HAS it's place. But it is far far from a means to an end. A step in the proper direction? Perhaps. An agreement entered into by a confessor? Perhaps this as well. A binding contract between one Baptized and God Himself? More likely. Able to cleanse one of their sins? Maybe this as well; symbolically. But, what we witness in the Word is that Baptism is but A step. And many many times Christ forgave without ANY statement concerning Baptism.

Is Christ DEAD? Of course not. So He is able to forgive NOW as He did THEN. That is up to HIM. And JUST because one decides to BE Baptized in water does NOT mean that their intentions are PURE or righteous. And HOW could impure reason or unrighteous intent be USED to do that which IS righteous?

So, believe what you will, but BEWARE of what you TEACH others. For those that mislead their brothers and sisters will surely suffer not ONLY for their OWN sins and unrigteousness, but for that which they use to entice their brothers and sisters as well.

Paul stated that he was NOT sent to Baptize but TO PREACH the Gospel. To TELL people about Christ and why He died. Not my words and NOT taken out of context. For it is through the Spirit that we come to an understanding of the 'truth'. It is through The Spirit that we become convicted in our hearts of THE TRUTH. No amound of 'water' is able to DO this. ONLY through the Spirit is it even POSSIBLE for us to BELIEVE.

Take it for what it's worth, but if your belief is based on wisdom and what you 'THINK', then you are probably following 'something OTHER THAN'' than 'truth'. And if what you follow is simply what the 'churches' have TOLD you, then you are certainly to be confused. For IF those that LEAD these churches even KNEW the 'truth', then they would CERTAINLY be practicing it. See for yourself HOW OFTEN your faith is misplaced on those that would have you FOLLOW THEM. How often these simply IGNORE the NEEDS of those that FOLLOW them blindly like 'puppy dogs' wagging their tails. Look at the whole system of back stabbing and pretentions and then TELL ME that it's The WAY.

The belief in 'water Baptism' that exists today is NOT what is offered up in scripture. It's what was 'created' by the organizations calling themselves 'churches'. and based solely on their OWN interpretation of what it MEANS. Read the Word YOURSELF without BEING biased through an organization and you will plainly see that it is THEY that are confused and NOT 'through the Word', but through their OWN intentions.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[dadof10]

Now, lets step back from YOUR 'tradition' and simply face the FACTS offered up in scripture:

And if you have the ability to say YES, then WHY did Christ Himself NEVER ONCE Baptize another?

John 3:22- "After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized."

And to prove he was talking about WATER BAPTISM, verse 23- "John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people came and were baptized."

Can you step back from your man-made traditions "and simply face the FACTS offered up in scripture". Can you now see the importance of water baptism?

 

[Imagican]

dad,

I have no traditions that are 'man-made'. I simply try my best to follow where I am led through Spirit. What seems to rub many people the 'wrong way' is that I choose to accept that God is a 'living God' and through The Spirit we ARE able to be led to truth. That I don't simply follow MEN as a 'sheep' seems to cause dissention in some.

And I still maintain that it was the 'apostles' that were commissioned with the act of 'Baptism'. And as far as YOU know it was for the testing of THEIR faith that they were so commissioned.

Can Baptism 'save'? I have YET to see scriptural evidence of such. Is it possible that one can receive the Holy Ghost THROUGH 'water Baptism'? I am SURE that God is able to offer what He chooses to offer in any way HE sees fit. But I have YET to find scripture that would offer that this is ALWAYS the 'case' with 'water Baptism'.

Once again, i am well aware of what the churches teach. Catholic as well as Protestant. I have simply offered that their teachings are NOT as offered up in scripture and therefore have little if ANY bearing on the truth of 'water Baptism'. And how dangerous it is to simply accept what ANY church teaches simply because those that have PLACED THEMSELVES in a position of authority SAY it is so.

We are to discern the Spirit of ANYTHING that is offered in regards to God or His Son. And IF that 'spirit' goes against scripture, then that spirit is NOT The Spirit inspired.

If I am NOT mistaken, everyone here has agreed that EVERYONE that is Baptized in water will NOT of necessity BE SAVED. And that everyone that is saved does NOT necessitate 'water Baptism'. If this is truth, then there is no more need of argument concerning the issue.

Dad, is 'water Baptism' ENOUGH for one to receive Salvation? Is that ALL that one must DO or BE in order to BE SAVED?

Answer this question and we can put the issue to rest. Otherwise we go round and round and end up right back where we started from.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

Fran,

Nothing 'desperate' in my words. NOTHING. i have simply pointed out that IF 'water Baptism' was AS important as YOU or those that believe LIKE you would have ME believe, then Paul would NEVER have made the statement that I quoted.

I respectfully disagree and had explained fully why I don't believe your "brushing aside" the fact that your point of view makes Paul disagree with Peter and Jesus.. JESUS TELLS the apostles to BAPTIZE AND TEACH, dude... What more do you want? Have you considered that you MIGHT be wrong???

How often does CHRIST Himself even MENTION 'water Baptism' in the ENTIRETY of the four Gospels?

John 3. Unless you are born from above, you will not have eternal life. I'd say that might have been a good reason why Jesus mentions it as the last words of His public ministry before His ascension into heaven... The early Christian writers clearly were taught that Baptism was life-giving. They clearly explain the context of the Scriptures.

And naturally, your question could be turned into "how often does Jesus say we are to read the Scriptures"? He doesn't mention that private individuals are to read the Scriptures, so your logic would say I shouldn't read the Scriptures, either...

Now, how many OTHER 'things' does Christ mention concerning HOW we are to receive what is offered so far as forgiveness and redemption? Boy, the list is quite large; Those that do NOT forgive their neighbors will NOT be forgiven by God, (no mention HERE of 'water Baptism' signifying ANY ability to TEACH forgiveness. Love, I find no words offering that 'water Baptism' is able to TEACH love. Treating others as we wish to be treated, no 'water Baptism' here. Loving God above EVERYTHING else, no 'water Baptism' here. Believing that Christ IS the Son of God, no mention of 'water Baptism' here. i could go on and on like this.

Baptism is not MEANT to teach love, so you are again attacking a strawman...

Baptism is salvation freely offered through faith in what God is doing - the remission of sins. Baptism BEGINS the presence of the Spirit in the soul. It is THAT Presence that works love within us. Baptism marks us as God's own, but only through sanctification are we taught how to love as Christ did. Baptism unites us to Christ and HE teaches us how to love, not Baptism. Baptism is the "instrument" that places us in union with Christ's Passion and Death.

I presume that a Christian would want to be united with Christ? Well, that's how it happens. No other "gate" to walk through, or fence to climb over to avoid baptism. Those who claim to be united with Christ and have not been baptized are thiefs who have climbed over the fence, rather than simply obeyed Christ.

Now, YOU quote to me HOW MANY TIMES that Christ STATES that ANYONE MUST BE BAPTIZED in order to receive the gift that is offered through His death and ressurection. i believe that you will find that there is SO MUCH MORE that Christ offers that has NOTHING to do with 'water Baptism'.

See above. Baptism is not the Holy Spirit. It is the ritual through which God comes to men and forgives sins. It is a visible sign of what God is doing in our spiritual life - washing away our sins, as Ezekiel prophesized...

And, and this is a pretty BIG 'and', Is there MORE than ONE Baptism? Is EVERY reference in the Word to Baptism in reference to 'water Baptism'? And, is the BETTER Baptism mentioned by John the Baptist 'water Baptism'? And if you have the ability to say YES, then WHY did Christ Himself NEVER ONCE Baptize another?

The Spirit was not given until AFTER He ascended to the Father. Jesus Himself said that is why HE MUST LEAVE - so the Advocate could come...

Yet we know the account at Pentacost. Was this NOT the Baptism refered to by John? For IT more than any other resembles the EXACT words offered up by John the Baptist in his direct description of this 'better Baptism'.

Uh, we are speaking of the same thing. "Water" Baptism includes the Holy Spirit, now that we are in the Christian dispensation. When one is baptized in the name of the Trinity, the Spirit comes to that person and his sins are forgiven. He begins to be transformed and enabled to participate in the divine nature as his union with God begins even now on this earth.

Guys, once again you attack my words from the tradition taught to you by the 'churches'. That has little if ANY bearing on what IS 'truth'. What they teach may well be, but may actually have NO bearing on the truth whatsoever. For we can clearly see that IF they are teaching the truth, then the truth is FILLED with opposites and contradictions. For EVERY denomination teaches DIFFERENT understandings of WHAT The 'truth' IS. And this is IMPOSSIBLE to 'be' truth. For there can be ONLY ONE TRUTH and everything that is NOT truth is a LIE. Whether it is intentional or through ignorance, that TOO has NO bearing on 'the truth'. It either IS or it ISN'T...

Please spare me the lecture. It is meaningless without any backing from Scriptures. I could say the same exact words, as well. They are not convincing in of themselves.

Is Christ DEAD? Of course not. So He is able to forgive NOW as He did THEN. That is up to HIM. And JUST because one decides to BE Baptized in water does NOT mean that their intentions are PURE or righteous. And HOW could impure reason or unrighteous intent be USED to do that which IS righteous?

Christ forgives sins through baptism. I have posted the pertinent Scriptures that you continue to ignore... You may worry about "pure intentions", but frankly, baptism ITSELF doesn't save for eternal heaven. It is for the remission of sins and the giving of the Spirit so that we CAN work out our salvation in fear and trembling. Having sufficient knowledge and desire of what happens at baptism is enough. We don't have to be perfect to come to the Table of the Lord.

So, believe what you will, but BEWARE of what you TEACH others.

Ditto. Ever figure out that you should also practice what you preach?

Paul stated that he was NOT sent to Baptize but TO PREACH the Gospel.

He was telling the Corinthians a "greater over the lesser". It was inconsequential who was baptizing. Paul makes that clear, if you read the context. Again, you have Paul disagreeing with himself, Peter, and Jesus... What else is new for people who have an agenda of pulling people out of the Church.

I have said enough. If you stubbornly hold to you view that Paul thinks baptism is unnecessary, you misunderstand the Scriptures and have been duped by you know who....

Regards

 

[Imagican]

Now, lets step back from YOUR 'tradition' and simply face the FACTS offered up in scripture:

And if you have the ability to say YES, then WHY did Christ Himself NEVER ONCE Baptize another?

John 3:22- "After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized."

And to prove he was talking about WATER BAPTISM, verse 23- "John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people came and were baptized."

Can you step back from your man-made traditions "and simply face the FACTS offered up in scripture". Can you now see the importance of water baptism?

And dad, the use of deception proves LITTLE in regards to truth. For the words that you have offered are negated by the FACT the IF you read JUST a little further, you RUN INTO these words:

John 4:

[1] When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
[2] (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

Now, are the words that you offered TRUTH in regards to the REASON that you offered them? Or was this deliberate deception in order to PROVE what you 'believe'? I wonder............. For the words that I offer I offer NOT lightly. The IDEAS that I offer, I offer NOT lightly. As I have stated before; I offer what I have been LED to understand SEPARATE from that which is taught by 'churches'. The Word is either the truth or it isn't. We can either gain understanding from it or it is but foolishness. I choose to accept that the Word IS the 'wisdom of God' as offered through His Son and His prophets. And if those that teach in the churches choose to teach contrary TO The Word, i have NO problem pointing out such error.

Blessings,

MEC