Water Baptism, is that ENOUGH?

[Catholic Crusader]

Imagician,

regardless of extrodinary means may be possible for some these means do not apply to you or me or anyone we encounter with the Good News. We are not in a position to appeal to those means.....

Correct: Just because God can save whom He pleases, does not mean we can do as we please. We must be obedient to Christ: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5), and the Church must follow Christs command: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19).

.

.

 

[dadof10]

LOL. I answered that question a million times too, pages ago. The merry-go-round never stops around here, does it

LOL, no it doesn't. I'm getting dizzy, it's about time to get off this ride.

 

[Imagican]

It would 'seem' as though the only folks that I have the inability to successfully communicate with on this subject would be those of the Catholic persuasion. And I have NO problem with the FACT that your 'religion' teaches EXACTLY what I refute.

And guys, what OTHERS have written concerning this issue is irrelevant to ME. For I TOO could write 'whatever I so choose' and it would be NO MORE or no LESS valid than what 'others' have written.

Christ explained in detail what it IS to 'pick up the cross' and follow Him. Baptism isn't even mentioned in these words that HE offered.

Over and over again we argue the SAME point and YOU have 'already ADMITTED' that 'water Baptism' is NOT enough. Yet you will continue to argue to importance of it EVEN after admitting openly that it is NOT enough.

One more time: Are ALL that are Baptized in water SAVED and going to receive eternal LIFE? If your answer is truth and you say NO, then we have NOTHING left to argue about concerning the TOPIC of this thread.

Now, if you would like to simply argue the virtue of Baptism, then that would be another thread. But this one wasn't started to simply discuss Baptism. It was started in an ATTEMPT to get those that were arguing on another thread that Baptism ITSELF is NOT 'the sign of a TRUE Christian'. For many have been Baptized into FALSE religions.

Question: Is the NAME itself 'Jesus Christ' of significance OF and IN itself? Can SATAN pose AS Jesus Christ? When he comes to this earth do you BELIEVE that he will POSE as God Himself? And that there will be MANY that will accept Satan AS God upon his appearance? These are SIMPLE questions to answer.

Now, IF Satan IS able to pose as God, then it is OBVIOUS that he is also able to pose as Jesus Christ. For we were WARNED that there would come a time when there would be MANY 'false Christ's'. So, IF this is ALL true, then WHAT is to STOP men from being Baptized into a 'false Christ' through a 'false church'? In THIS case, then the 'water Baptism' offered would have NO power and NONE effect so far as being offered forgiveness or redemption.

PLEASE, call it what you will but spare me the 'rationalization' label for the TRUTH is the truth regardless of 'who's church' it goes against.

You good folks keep using the term EXCETIONAL. ANY time that one comes to God through Christ IT IS EXCEPTIONAL. For the world is LOST. Even the angels themselves rejoice each and EVERY time one is able to be FOUND.

Purely obedient to God? Fran, no I am not. I AM a sinner and am NOT utterly obedient to God. But in the gist of the topic at hand, obedience has NOTHING to do with UNDERSTANDING. NO, I am NOT obedient to YOUR church. And do not adhere to the TEACHINGS of YOUR church.

I have simply attempted to offer that what 'churches teach' oftentimes are NOTHING other than their OWN 'traditions' that oftentimes have NO basis in TRUTH. Simply 'what they TEACH'.

Now, for you 'extrodinary people'. What DETERMINES one being 'extrodinary'? if God is able to 'save' WITHOUT Baptism, who are YOU to call it anything other than 'God's will'? That is REDICULOUS thinking; that YES one MUST do it OUR way but God is STILL able to do it HIS Way. All it either God's WAY or it is NOT. Neither YOU nor YOUR CHURCH are able to offer ANYTHING that is NOT of God's will. And HE is able to offer in total ABSENCE of 'your church'.

The arrogance of 'any' denomination in it's offering that IT is ABOVE another is FOOLISH pride and has NO place in a true worship of God through His Son. The 'churches' are NOT 'The Church' by 'default'. And MOST aren't even CLOSE to the truth that has been offered through Spirit and word so that would make them not even PARTS of The Church or Body of Jesus Christ. So please, spare me the rhetoric that YOUR church is The Church. For it is apparent that any church that teaches THEIR way is not able to understand THE way.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

It would 'seem' as though the only folks that I have the inability to successfully communicate with on this subject would be those of the Catholic persuasion. And I have NO problem with the FACT that your 'religion' teaches EXACTLY what I refute.....

Horse-apples. We are just about the only ones who have injected any common sense into this thead.

I answered your question a million times: NO, BAPTISM IS NOT ENOUGH TO SAVE YOU (except in a few extraordinary circumstances).

Perhaps you'll recall this give and take we had a while back. I said:
"As I have said, baptism, among other things, is the entrance into the family of God. Now, if you were to adopt a kid, he would be your child legally. But that is no guarantee that he won't grow up to be a hoodlum and totally disrespect your family. But none the less, he would STILL legally be your child. That is one - just one - of the reasons why babies are baptised. They become adopted sons of the Father. This has nothing to do whatsoever with what kind of Christian they will turn out to be. Get it?"

And you replied:
"Yes, CC, I DO 'get it'. And perhaps there is 'something' to be understood of what you offer. I have already openly admitted that 'water Baptism' could 'very well' BE a 'first step' in the direction of Salvation. I don't BELIEVE that it ALWAYS IS however. Especially IF one is Baptized under a 'false perception'."

Now, how does that give-and-take fit in with what you just posted? Really MEC, its pointless to discuss things with you if you are just going to jettison the whole discussion the next day

 

[francisdesales]

It would 'seem' as though the only folks that I have the inability to successfully communicate with on this subject would be those of the Catholic persuasion. And I have NO problem with the FACT that your 'religion' teaches EXACTLY what I refute.

I doubt anyone is losing sleep over the fact that we disagree here...

However, we will keep you in our prayers that God will illuminate you through His Spirit to know Him and to recognize His continuing presence within the Church.

For the last time, baptism ALWAYS remits sins and thus ALWAYS offers salvation - when we define salvation as some Scriptures calls it - the remission of sins. For that is why Christ came.

Is baptism "enough" to bring us to eternal glory? Not necessarily. One must have faith working in love. Faith alone is not enough to be saved for heaven. While Baptism provides our initial immersing into the Passion and Death of Christ, it is the Spirit that works within us to do God's will, not the sacrament of Baptism.

This is all I have to add to this conversation. I pray that you will come to understand that this is the Word given to us from the Apostles, and we know that those who reject the Apostles reject Christ. There is a difference between ignorance and outright rejection. The bible does not support your view. Post Pentacostal admission into the Church and remission of sins always included baptism by water and the Spirit.

Regards

 

[dadof10]

It would 'seem' as though the only folks that I have the inability to successfully communicate with on this subject would be those of the Catholic persuasion. And I have NO problem with the FACT that your 'religion' teaches EXACTLY what I refute.

I have to second "horse-apples". You have refuted NOTHING. You may reject, but you have not refuted. Most of the time you won't even answer a direct question, so the "inability to successfully communicate" is of your own making.

And guys, what OTHERS have written concerning this issue is irrelevant to ME. For I TOO could write 'whatever I so choose' and it would be NO MORE or no LESS valid than what 'others' have written.

So, Thayers Greek and Hebrew Lexicon is irrelevent to you? Let me ask some questions concerning this topic (which will not be answered). What would you consider a relevant source for translating Greek and Hebrew into English? Can you do it yourself? If not, who do YOU trust to do it? The folks at Thayers have been doing this for years and are well respected by ALL denominations. In fact, I have been using the Blue Letter Bible website to argue points on forums for many years and you are the first person I've run across who has called it irrelevant.

The arrogance of 'any' denomination in it's offering that IT is ABOVE another is FOOLISH pride and has NO place in a true worship of God through His Son.

What about the arrogance of one person who puts himself over Greek/Hebrew scholars because they don't agree with him? Is that "foolish pride" or just foolishness?

MEC, you can go on and on about the Catholic Church all you want to, but you can't show me one quote I have given from the ECF's, the Catechism or ANY specifically Catholic source. EVERYTHING I have quoted has been from Scripture, Thayers and COMMON SENSE. Why do you think you are the only non-Catholic still arguing this thread? The Protestant position on salvific water baptism (i.e. as a symbolic gesture) can't be defended Scripturally.

 

[duval]

Is water baptism enough? As I understand the N.T. the answer is yes and no, depending. It is enough for remission of alien sins, Acts 2:38. It is enough to put us into Christ wherein are all spiritual blessings, Gal.3:27 and Eph.1:3. Baptism is not enough in the sense of being an end in itself. One must add to his faith, 11 Pet.1:3-11 and 11 Pet.3:18.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Is water baptism enough? As I understand the N.T. the answer is yes and no, depending. It is enough for remission of alien sins, Acts 2:38. It is enough to put us into Christ wherein are all spiritual blessings, Gal.3:27 and Eph.1:3. Baptism is not enough in the sense of being an end in itself. One must add to his faith, 11 Pet.1:3-11 and 11 Pet.3:18.

Well, that sums it up pretty nicely. Well put. I would probably add a little more to it, but thats pretty good.

 

[dadof10]

Is water baptism enough? As I understand the N.T. the answer is yes and no, depending. It is enough for remission of alien sins, Acts 2:38. It is enough to put us into Christ wherein are all spiritual blessings, Gal.3:27 and Eph.1:3. Baptism is not enough in the sense of being an end in itself. One must add to his faith, 11 Pet.1:3-11 and 11 Pet.3:18.

Exactly. Baptism remits sins and therefore saves, but through sin and lack of faith, we can lose that salvation.

 

[one_lost_coin]

Thankyou Duval and Dadof10. That was a really clear and succinct way of explaining it. Very helpful.

 

[duval]

Yes, one can lose salvation ( so sin as to be finally lost ) Rev.2:10, and such passages may be multiplied.

 

[Guest]

When you take aspirin for a headache, is that so you can GET a headache, or AFTER you already have a headache?

 

[dadof10]

When you take aspirin for a headache, is that so you can GET a headache, or AFTER you already have a headache?

O.K....I'll bite. When you actually HAVE a headache!!! What do I win. :P

 

[Catholic Crusader]

When you take aspirin for a headache, is that so you can GET a headache, or AFTER you already have a headache?

O.K....I'll bite. When you actually HAVE a headache!!! What do I win. :P

Don't bite. The dude is on a Crusade to try and attack every Catholic that posts in every thread. Ignore him: If we're lucky, he'll disappear

 

[Guest]

When you take aspirin for a headache, is that so you can GET a headache, or AFTER you already have a headache?

O.K....I'll bite. When you actually HAVE a headache!!! What do I win. :P

Baptism for forgiveness of sins...
Aspirin for headache....

 

[Guest]

When you take aspirin for a headache, is that so you can GET a headache, or AFTER you already have a headache?

O.K....I'll bite. When you actually HAVE a headache!!! What do I win. :P

Don't bite. The dude is on a Crusade to try and attack every Catholic that posts in every thread. Ignore him: If we're lucky, he'll disappear

The only one with Crusade in their name is you, and judging by your choice of avatar, it would seem that nothing shall stand in your way and you will use whatever means necessary to reach your objective.

I have attacked no one. I might argue ideas, but not people.

To be Catholic means universal, as such any one who is in the Family of God, being adopted through Faith in Christ Jesus and a member of the Body of Christ through Baptism is Catholic - a member of the Universal Body of Christ.

If you want to limit the term Catholic to one particular branch, then perhaps you could use Roman Catholic, since it would seem that you follow the Roman rite.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Christians always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12), and they have always interpreted that as WATER BAPTISM. Thus the early Church Fathers wrote in the Nicene Creed (A.D. 381), "We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

And the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament [Mark 16:16]" (CCC 1257).

The Christian belief that water baptism is necessary for salvation is so unshakable that even the Protestant Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: "Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted" (Large Catechism 4:6).

Still, even though the necessity of water baptism is a normative, there are exceptions to water baptism. It is possible to be saved through "baptism of blood," martyrdom for Christ, or through "baptism of desire", that is, an explicit or even implicit desire for baptism. This applies to, say, the Good Thief on the cross. Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church also states: "Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized" (CCC 1281; the salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; cf. CCC 1260–1, 1283).

I suggest people read the first seven links on this page:
http://www.catholic.com/library/sacraments.asp

 

[dadof10]

Don't bite. The dude is on a Crusade to try and attack every Catholic that posts in every thread. Ignore him: If we're lucky, he'll disappear

I know I should ignore it, but it's just too fun. It's like seeing a patch of ice and knowing I should just keep walking, something bad could happen, but EVERY TIME I run and slide as far and fast as I can. The temptation's just too great. O.K....I'll stop.....Just one more time... ;-)

 

[dadof10]

Baptism for forgiveness of sins...
Aspirin for headache....

So....Baptism is like taking aspirin? How many times a day do you get baptized with water? After every sin, or once at night? Do you and your friends carry water around with you so that when you sin you can immediately douse each other? Maybe you wait till the end of the week and get them all washed away at once??? Please enlighten me as to how this works.

 

[Guest]

Don't bite. The dude is on a Crusade to try and attack every Catholic that posts in every thread. Ignore him: If we're lucky, he'll disappear

I know I should ignore it, but it's just too fun. It's like seeing a patch of ice and knowing I should just keep walking, something bad could happen, but EVERY TIME I run and slide as far and fast as I can. The temptation's just too great. O.K....I'll stop.....Just one more time... ;-)

I must say that I am sorry that you feel this way dadof10.. I have not meant to cause harm.