Water Baptism, is that ENOUGH?

[Biblereader]

What individuals think does not matter.

Really! You would blaspheme the Holy Spirit? What I 'think' is what the Holy Spirit leads me to think. My source is and always will be the Holy Spirit.

So the Holy Spirit guides you but not the millions of Christians who believe otherwise. Hey, I'll bet you don't believe in Papal Infallibility huh. BUT, to contradict YOU is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Wow. Well hells bells, lets call the Vatican and tell them they can all go home. We have a direct conduit to God now, through you.

MARK T was speaking the truth. UNLESS YOU ARE BORN AGAIN, you can NOT have the Holy Spirit within you, and you will NOT follow the Bible.
There is only ONE DOOR, ONE WAY, ONE SHEPHERD, ONE JESUS CHRIST.
ONE.
Jesus's sheep follow Him, and ONLY Him. Not the pope, and Jesus. ONLY JESUS. ONE WAY.
ONE WAY INTO HEAVEN. ONE WAY.

 

[Biblereader]

the links CC offered... but I'll give you the "short" version:
we believe the same Holy Spirit that led the writers of the NT books to lead the Bishop of Rome. The Bible is not inerrant because of the men who wrote it, and the Pope is infallible
S

You are precisely backwards, may I say so in the most meek and gentle way I know how.
Please read these scriptures, paying particular attention to verse:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

1: This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2: For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3: Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4: Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5: Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6: For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7: Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8: Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9: But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
10: But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11: Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12: Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13: But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14: But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15: And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

AND:::::8: But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9: And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10: Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11: But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12: And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
13: But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

 

[Scott1]

You are precisely backwards, may I say so in the most meek and gentle way I know how.
Please read these scriptures, paying particular attention to verse:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Geez... if they only had the Bible back then... they coulda just read it and not wasted time with the whole "church" thing.

Oh well.... what's done is done, right? 8-)

 

[turnorburn]

That's impossible blaspheme the holy spirit through him? and you aren't really calling the Vatican at
this hour are you. What will happen if they trace your phone number Yikes! :smt064 man I would think about doing that, Gee Whiz

So the Holy Spirit guides you but not the millions of Christians who believe otherwise. Hey, I'll bet you don't believe in Papal Infallibility huh. BUT, to contradict YOU is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Wow. Well hells bells, lets call the Vatican and tell them they can all go home. We have a direct conduit to God now, through you.

Another helpful hint from turnorburns corner

Thanks,
turnorburn

 

[Scott1]

That's impossible blaspheme the holy spirit through him? and you aren't really calling the Vatican at
this hour are you. What will happen if they trace your phone number Yikes! :smt064 man I would think about doing that, Gee Whiz

Can someone translate this for me.... :crazyeyes:

So the Holy Spirit guides you but not the millions of Christians who believe otherwise. Hey, I'll bet you don't believe in Papal Infallibility huh. BUT, to contradict YOU is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Wow. Well hells bells, lets call the Vatican and tell them they can all go home. We have a direct conduit to God now, through you.

I can't be sure that you directed this rant towards me... but I guess I'll help answer:

The Holy Spirit guides all who seek the truth.... Catholic or not.

...... and ummmm.... the rest is jibberish.... sorry.

Peace be with you,
S

 

[turnorburn]

Well Scott 1 was it jibberish? it was meant to be something between friends,
sorry about that the next time I'll write him a PM :wink:

 

[Catholic Crusader]

the links CC offered... but I'll give you the "short" version:
we believe the same Holy Spirit that led the writers of the NT books to lead the Bishop of Rome. The Bible is not inerrant because of the men who wrote it, and the Pope is infallible
S

You are precisely backwards, may I say so in the most meek and gentle way I know how.
Please read these scriptures, paying particular attention to verse:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Actually, it is YOU that has it backwards: All that verse says is that the scriptures are inspired and USEFUL. I agree, they ARE inspired and useful. But they are not the final authority, and you can't find a verse that says they are. However, I CAN find LOTS of vereses that speak to the authority given to the Church leaders. The New Testament was canonized in the 4th Century, but Christ established a Church in the 1st century. Christ chose men to teach, not material to hand out for people to read. Christ established a Church, not a book.

You guys ALWAYS quote that verse, and nobody ever actually reads it: Being USEFUL is not the same as being the FINAL AUTHORITY. A book cannot "bind and loose", only men can. A book cannot excersise authority and make decisions, only men can.

In his great commission Jesus said: "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Did he tell them to write anything? No. If teaching meant writing, then they ALL would have contributed to the Bible. Did some of the apostles disobey Christ's order to teach because they did not write a piece of the Bible? No.
Romans 10:17: "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." See that? It does not say READING, it says HEARING

 

[turnorburn]

I am confused here I mean really confused where did he say the scripture said reading.
I've look at it a few times and I can't find it maybe my glasses need a new prescription.
Ya Think?

Thanks,
turnorburn

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I am confused here I mean really confused where did he say the scripture said reading.
I've look at it a few times and I can't find it maybe my glasses need a new prescription.
Ya Think?

Thanks,
turnorburn

 

[Veritas]

: :smt044

I have not read really anything in this thread but saw this...

That.. is hilarious... I hope you guys are doing this in good jest. :wink:

 

[Catholic Crusader]

: :smt044

I have not read really anything in this thread but saw this...

That.. is hilarious... I hope you guys are doing this in good jest. :wink:

Oh yes: Turnorburn loves that pic. Thats why he posts crazy stuff, just so I have a reason to post it. LOL.

 

[turnorburn]

That guy who is he, I'm not old enough to understand anything, and he doesn't look like a teacher.
What could he teach me that I don't already know. I have to go now I'll be back when I grow up,
he's starting to scare me.. :smt067

 

[Imagican]

CC,

Allow me to state this: The Church is NOT the 'final authority'. FAR FAR from it. The Church is to BE submissive TO The Spirit. And that offers that CHRIST is the 'final authority'.

Now HOW do you SUPPOSE that we are to PROTECT ourselves from that which is ABLE to subvert? That Christ or even GOD has placed the INFALIBLE in the hands of the FALIBLE? That would be utter FUTILITY. For where MAN is involved, the falibility of man will PREVAIL on this earth.

it is WHERE the Spirit dwells that there IS the ability to DEFEAT the FLESH. That is NOT 'confined' within a 'physical church'. For the TEMPLE is NOW within the hearts of those that BELIEVE and follow in Word and Spirit. PERIOD. No amount of 'fleshly words' are able to alter the TRUTH one tit.

You CANNOT offer ANY proof that there IS this 'Church that has been gifted with FINAL authority' except in the words of certain 'creeds'. And JUST because a 'religion' STATES it does NOT offer validity other than in the CONFINES of 'that religion'.

We were 'set FREE' from the bonds of the laws that were 'created by MEN'. The Jews fell into this 'same trap' and Christ FREED us from it. We are NO LONGER bound BY the laws but through the BLOOD of Christ through WHOM those laws that MATTER are NOW written in the hearts of those that LOVE Him and follow His commandments.

So, this continuation of the offering of 'final authority' holds NO weight in the hearts of those that KNOW Christ and His Father. Those are NOT bound to the RULES of 'any man made church' or 'any'that would subvert the AUTHORITY of Christ into their OWN hands through force or coersion.

Nice try though.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Biblereader]

A book cannot "bind and loose", only men can. A book cannot excersise authority and make decisions, only men can.

No, you're wrong. Men can do nothing apart from abiding in the Vine.

Nothing. The book is God's Holy Word. It is holy. It is of God.
It is, and happened, that men gave themselves over, yielded, to the Holy Spirit, and then they wrote as they were yielded and inspired.

John, as was EVERY other writer of the New Testament, IN THE HOLY SPIRIT, which is why they wrote correctly, and why the bible can be trusted, the KJV, as the HOLY Word of God.

Men don't do anything, they think they do, but, without giving glory to God, they get carried off in many directions.

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10: I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

 

[Biblereader]

CC,

Allow me to state this: The Church is NOT the 'final authority'. FAR FAR from it. The Church is to BE submissive TO The Spirit. And that offers that CHRIST is the 'final authority'.

Now HOW do you SUPPOSE that we are to PROTECT ourselves from that which is ABLE to subvert? That Christ or even GOD has placed the INFALIBLE in the hands of the FALIBLE? That would be utter FUTILITY. For where MAN is involved, the falibility of man will PREVAIL on this earth.

it is WHERE the Spirit dwells that there IS the ability to DEFEAT the FLESH. That is NOT 'confined' within a 'physical church'. For the TEMPLE is NOW within the hearts of those that BELIEVE and follow in Word and Spirit. PERIOD. No amount of 'fleshly words' are able to alter the TRUTH one tit.

You CANNOT offer ANY proof that there IS this 'Church that has been gifted with FINAL authority' except in the words of certain 'creeds'. And JUST because a 'religion' STATES it does NOT offer validity other than in the CONFINES of 'that religion'.

Amen, amen, and amen!

Men, and women, apart from God, can do nothing OF God. If we do not yield to the Holy Spirit, we are not doing anything inspired.
That's the whole problem with some churches. They put too much blind authority on what some man says, some man who, without his power and money, would not be so happy to lead.

 

[Biblereader]

In his great commission Jesus said: "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Did he tell them to write anything? No.

Then you tell me, buddy, why the Catholics, and Mormons, and a couple of others, WROTE THEIR OWN EXTRA BIBLICAL BOOKS, and they use them MORE, in their church services, than they do the Bible!
That's idolatry, and putting man's words above the Holy Word of God.

Tell me why THEY wrote, and wrote, and re-wrote.

(I know why, but, I'm wondering if you'll tell)

Oh, and notice one more thing, VERY IMPORTANT:
"and of the Holy Spirit"

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Timothy, Paul, were all yielded to the Holy Spirit within them.
The ONLY reason they had the Holy Spirit, was, they were born again.

 

[Imagican]

The issue of 'water Baptism BEING 'enough' is NOT a denominational ISSUE so much as a Spiritual one.

So often in this debate we have seen that those that adhere to a 'belief' that it IS 'enough' defend their 'belief' from a 'denominational standpoint' that has little to DO with scripture. Based almost SOLELY on the 'creations' of MEN rather than an adherance to that which is offered from ABOVE.

Yes, one could SURLY state that the scriptures WERE 'written by men'. Why believe in THESE men and not OTHERS?

The simplest answer to this question is that those to whom credit is offered in the writtings of scripture WERE 'chosen' by God to deliver the message. And there is LITTLE reason to believe that it NEEDED further definement. For the scriptures offered WERE 'enough' for those that RECOGNIZE in Spirit, those words written BEING the 'inpiration of God'.

There is CERTAINLY the ability of 'some to SEE more than others'. But the scriptues were COMPLETE in that they offered ENOUGH to be UNDERSTOOD in Spirit.

When we take the whole of scripture it becomes THE answer to those questions that we have that are NOT directly inferenced IN scripture. Issues such as Baptism, works, faith, LOVE.......these CAN be answered through The Word, in a manner that IS acceptable and true.

That SOME allow the FLESH to combine WITH The Word and come up with that which DOES NOT conform to scripture is inevitable. For we were WARNED that there WERE those that had, 'gone OUT from AMONG them' to teach something DIFFERENT than that offered by the apostles. EVEN THEN, two thousand years ago, there WERE those that were NOT able to submit to the Spirit and chose to BELIEVE what THEY 'wanted to believe', and TAUGHT this to others that were MORE than willing to place their faith in THESE MEN rather than that which was offered from ABOVE. Itching ears desirous of that which was PLEASING to the flesh. Having a SEMBLANCE of truth but denying the POWER and therefor following 'something DIFFERENT' than the TRUTH.

We can clearly see it today in MANY of 'the churches'. A denial of that which is truth in favor of SELF. Desiring that which pertains to the flesh and INSERTING it into or COMBINING IT with The Word to come up with what THEY choose to FOLLOW.

We can CLEARLY see this in the OBVIOUS examples offered by the likes of Jim Jones, David Koresh, NUMEROUS examples we have of those that 'USE' The Word to create their OWN 'beliefs'. And ARE able to convince others to JOIN THEM in their folly.

These are BUT the MOST blatant examples. I believe that there are MANY that are NOT so OBVIOUS in their deceit. MUCH more 'subtle' in their approach. Able to fool MANY that BELIEVE that they are FOLLOWING 'truth'.

But FOLKS, it only TAKES the meagerest of alteration to TURN the TRUTH into UN-truth. By the altering of SINGLE words at times those willing to DO SO are ABLE to change that which is HOLY into that WHICH IS UNHOLY.

Beware. For there are MANY 'false Christs' in this world that will offer YOU: 'here is Christ, there is Christ, But in truth,Christ IS neither HERE nor THERE, Christ IS within the HEARTS of those that BELIEVE and FOLLOW Him in Word and DEED. For those that KNOW Christ there IS neither HERE NOR THERE. For THEY KNOW EXACTLY where THEIR SAVIOR RESIDES.

It is for those that are LOST to follow OTHERS who are LOST. Hoping to find but NEVER able to acheive this most basic of persuits. Refusing to simply ACCEPT the truth and desirous of that which PLEASES the FLESH instead.

That is WHY there are SO many that are UNABLE to come to agreement on the most BASIC of understanding. For they allow THEIR WILL to have prominence over the Will of God. Choosing to 'pick and choose' that which is desirous of THEMSELVES to follow. Choosing the appeasment of concience over the conviction of Spirit. And then SPREADING this SAME confusion EVERY where they speak.

Water Bapstism? It's NOT enough. For IF it WERE, then we would ALL have COME to the SAME understanding. if it WAS 'enough' then EACH of us that HAS BEEN Baptized would HAVE the SAME understanding concerning it.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

.....The Church is NOT the 'final authority'. FAR FAR from it. The Church is to BE submissive TO The Spirit.....

I strongly disagree. When Jesus gave the authority to bind and loose to Peter, and to the Apostles as a group, THAT is authority. The Council of Jerusalem in Acts is the proto-council, the first example of binding and loosing. They made a decision on circumcision, and that was the end of the matter - we are "bound" by that decision. THAT is how authority is exercised. If protestants were around then, everybody would have just decided what to do for themselves.

And who are you to say that the Churtch is NOT submissive to the Spirit? I say that everything the Catholic Churtch teaches is true, BECAUSE OF the Holy Spirit, and my submission to that authority IS a submissiopn to the Spirit also..

 

[Biblereader]

BOY, this photo is AGGRAVATING!!

 

[Biblereader]

. If protestants were around then, everybody would have just decided what to do for themselves.

.

Protestants were around then, they were just labeled "heretics".