Water Baptism, is that ENOUGH?

[MarkT]

What individuals think does not matter.

Really! You would blaspheme the Holy Spirit? What I 'think' is what the Holy Spirit leads me to think. My source is and always will be the Holy Spirit.

I 'think' any plant that isn't planted by God will be rooted up and thrown into the fire. And any belief that isn't true will be burned away by the fire that issues from the mouth of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Biblereader]

Amen! this is the truth.

Water Baptism is an outward show of ones faith, it has nothing to do with salvation. EG the thief on the cross was never baptized, but was in paradise with Jesus simply for believing who he was.

 

[Biblereader]

I 'think' any plant that isn't planted by God will be rooted up and thrown into the fire. And any belief that isn't true will be burned away by the fire that issues from the mouth of the Lord Jesus Christ.

AMEN!!

 

[Biblereader]

....I think it's more like John's baptism preps us for the way because John 'prepared the way of the Lord'.....

"What 20th century individuals think is of little consequence. What the Universal (meaning catholic) belief of the early Church was is what guides us to proper understanding of the subject."

Why not be fair and present Zwingli's views?
Plus, no where does Jesus tell us that water saves any soul. It is an act of submission to God.
Jesus was baptized.
Jesus did NOT need to be saved!!

Jesus was our example in baptism.

 

[Biblereader]

So this leads us back to the question, Is Water Baptism ENOUGH? Enough for WHAT? Salvation. Can one simply be dunked or sprinkled and THIS alone BE enough for one to RECEIVE eternal life?

NO! It isn't enough! This is why people NEED TO READ THEIR BIBLES!! Read the whole bible!
All of it.

This is what's enough,for salvation:
8: But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

THAT'S ALL ANYONE NEEDS TO DO, to be born again!! That's it!
If a person confesses the Lord Jesus with their mouth, and believes in their heart God raised Him from the dead,
AND THEN THEY DIE,
no baptism,
no Lord's Supper,
nothing else.....
THEY WILL BE IN HEAVEN FOR ETERNITY, WITH JESUS.

LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU!!! Earnestly contend for the faith!!

 

[MarkT]

Alright Alright

I'm sorry CC. My friend and my brother.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

What individuals think does not matter.

Really! You would blaspheme the Holy Spirit? What I 'think' is what the Holy Spirit leads me to think. My source is and always will be the Holy Spirit.

So the Holy Spirit guides you but not the millions of Christians who believe otherwise. Hey, I'll bet you don't believe in Papal Infallibility huh. BUT, to contradict YOU is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Wow. Well hells bells, lets call the Vatican and tell them they can all go home. We have a direct conduit to God now, through you.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Why not be fair and present Zwingli's views?....

Because I was quoting the early Christians, some of whom were taught personally by apostles themselves. Was Zwinglii taught directly by an apostle?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

So this leads us back to the question, Is Water Baptism ENOUGH? Enough for WHAT? Salvation. Can one simply be dunked or sprinkled and THIS alone BE enough for one to RECEIVE eternal life?

NO! It isn't enough! This is why people NEED TO READ THEIR BIBLES!! Read the whole bible!
All of it......

I got a better idea: Why don't you read the posts before you fly off the deep end. I NEVER said it was enough. Here is what I said:

Okay, then back to the topic: “Water Baptism, is that ENOUGH?â€Â. The question I have is: Enough for what? Enough to guarantee you heaven? No, it is not.

Baptism is what it is, no more, and no less. For us, baptism is the washing away of sin, the means by which one is “born againâ€Â, and the entrance into the covenant family of God. It does NOT cover sins committed afterwards, and therefore does not guarantee your salvation. It also does not guarantee that you will always be a good Christian, just as your formula of asking Jesus to be your “personal Lord and Savoir†does not guarantee that a person who does so will always be a good Christian either.

Where we disagree is that Baptism is merely symbolic.

 

[turnorburn]

Just when you thought I was over the hill Ha! Ive known about Zwinglii for
years, he's that guy from Laverne and Shirley with the black hair, I might
be older but I haven't lost my touch. :smt069

Thanks,
turnorburn

 

[MarkT]

So the Holy Spirit guides you but not the millions of Christians who believe otherwise.

I didn't say that. But we do receive various gifts and if we have more then we are given more.

Hey, I'll bet you don't believe in Papal Infallibility huh. BUT, to contradict YOU is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Wow. Well hells bells, lets call the Vatican and tell them they can all go home. We have a direct conduit to God now, through you.

OK. Sounds like a good idea. But I didn't say I was infallible or perfect in any way.

I can give you some insight into baptism.

8 souls were saved through water. Baptism, the reference to water, now saves as an appeal to God for a clear conscience. So Peter is saying the water represents something spiritual. We are communicating with God; asking him to keep us on track. The words of God, the teachings of Jesus Christ, are water (living water). So when God communicated with us, he gave us living water. Likewise when we communicate our prayer and make our appeal to God to forgive us our sins, it is by water and through water. So water is the medium.

Now the 8 were saved because they took refuge in the ark. Likewise we are saved when we take refuge in the Word of God.

Noah listened to God and he built the ark and he built it according to God's word. Likewise the message to us is that we must listen to God and build an ark and build it according to his word. Our ark (or house) is built on the Word of God, Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Just when you thought I was over the hill Ha! Ive known about Zwinglii for
years, he's that guy from Laverne and Shirley with the black hair, I might
be older but I haven't lost my touch. :smt069

Thanks,
turnorburn

 

[Catholic Crusader]

....I can give you some insight into baptism.....

I read it, and your wrong. The early churh fathers were unanimous in regenerative miracle of baptism. Most Christians today believe in the regenerative miracle of baptism. Sorry, but all that "The Holy Spirit is my source" is subjective, not to mention un-Biblical. Even though we all have the Holy Spirit, there is nowhere in the Bible that says He wil prevent you from error. THAT gift was given to the aopostles only. Christ instructed the Church to preach everything he taught (Matt. 28:19–20) and promised the apostles the protection of the Holy Spirit to "guide you into all the truth" (John 16:13). That paticular gift belongs to their successors.

 

[Imagican]

What individuals think does not matter.

Really! You would blaspheme the Holy Spirit? What I 'think' is what the Holy Spirit leads me to think. My source is and always will be the Holy Spirit.

So the Holy Spirit guides you but not the millions of Christians who believe otherwise. Hey, I'll bet you don't believe in Papal Infallibility huh. BUT, to contradict YOU is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Wow. Well hells bells, lets call the Vatican and tell them they can all go home. We have a direct conduit to God now, through you.

CC,

You have used this defense on numerous occasion. NUMBERS mean NOTHING. The World contains millions upon millions upon millions of people that believe that THEIR desires are MORE important than ANYTHING else. Does that make THEM 'right' by the shear NUMBERS of those that so believe?

Satan's ultimate purpose is DECEPTION. Whether those to which you refer have BEEN decieved is JUST as much a 'possibility' as there BEING 'only a few' that HAVEN'T.

Just a little piece of solid advice: When you SEE people 'flocking' towards something on this earth, RUN the OTHER WAY. The indication here is that NUMBERS for their OWN sake offer NOTHING other than indication of the OPPOSITE of the manner in which you continually use as example.

EVERY example that we have been offered THROUGHOUT The Word shows that NEVER have numbers indicated ANYTHING but those that live FOR this world. And each and every time that truth has been offered it has been limited in understanding to a FEW, sometimes ONLY ONE. Abraham, Lot, Moses, ALL the prophets up to Christ Himself. ALWAYS only a FEW compared to the masses of those living in darkness.

I am NOT offering this UNDERSTANDING to SHOW that it IS the deciding factor, just pointing out that shear NUMBERS concerning doctrine or belief offers NOTHING other than that: Numbers. There is NO indication that there is ANY validity to TRUTH through shear numbers. In this country, there are MORE people that believe in abortion than NOT. Are they correct in their belief for the sake of numbers?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Really! You would blaspheme the Holy Spirit? What I 'think' is what the Holy Spirit leads me to think. My source is and always will be the Holy Spirit.

So the Holy Spirit guides you but not the millions of Christians who believe otherwise. Hey, I'll bet you don't believe in Papal Infallibility huh. BUT, to contradict YOU is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Wow. Well hells bells, lets call the Vatican and tell them they can all go home. We have a direct conduit to God now, through you.

CC,You have used this defense on numerous occasion. NUMBERS mean NOTHING. ....

Ah, but I didn't say millions of "Catholics", I said millions of "Christians", from all backgrounds. I don't like it when people claim that to disagree with them is to disagree with God. That is the height of arrogance.

AND, you never seem to address my post:

Okay, then back to the topic: “Water Baptism, is that ENOUGH?â€Â. The question I have is: Enough for what? Enough to guarantee you heaven? No, it is not.

Baptism is what it is, no more, and no less. For us, baptism is the washing away of sin, the means by which one is “born againâ€Â, and the entrance into the covenant family of God. It does NOT cover sins committed afterwards, and therefore does not guarantee your salvation. It also does not guarantee that you will always be a good Christian, just as your formula of asking Jesus to be your “personal Lord and Savoir†does not guarantee that a person who does so will always be a good Christian either.

Where we disagree is that Baptism is merely symbolic.

 

[MarkT]

What 20th century individuals think is of little consequence.

You said what individuals think doesn't matter. But you're an individual. Your understanding of what the church fathers believed might be all wrong.

What the Universal belief of the early Church was is what guides us to proper understanding of the subject. The key Scripture reference to being "born again" or "regenerated" is John 3:5, where Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." The early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new lifeâ€â€a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3–4; Col. 2:12–13; Titus 3:5). No Church Father referred to John 3:5 as anything other than water baptism.

Romans 6:3-4 Paul said we were baptized into his death.

Col. 2:12-13 Paul said we were buried with him in baptism and also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. Basically he's saying we were baptized into his death and we were raised with him through faith in the working of God, referring to the resurrection.

Titus 3:5 Paul said he saved us, not because of deeds done by us, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Here we have Paul referring to the action of the water and the Spirit. The water is for forgiveness in the name of Jesus Christ. Like Peter said, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." And the Spirit is for renewal. Jesus said, 'you must be born anew' (born of the Spirit) 'That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.' John 3:6

So it's not just water but water and the Spirit. We are baptized in his name to have our sins blotted out, and we are born of the Spirit. Jesus was born of the Spirit. How can he be the first of those born of the Spirit if we are not born of the Spirit as he was?

Justin Martyr:
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

First of all we fast 'to loose the bonds of wickedness' and we do it by 'sharing our bread with the hungry and bringing the homeless poor into our house'. Then the LORD will 'answer when we call' Isa. 58:6-9 I would disagree with Justin that we fast for the remission of sin but I agree with him about fasting and prayer. We fast to be heard by God. I think we are washed for the remission of sin.

 

[MarkT]

CC

James said we all make mistakes. James 3:2 Paul said our knowledge isn't perfect. 1 Cor. 13:9 He said, 'but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.' 1Co 13:10 and 'Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.' Php 3:12

Where do you get this idea that the Pope is infallible?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

You said what individuals think doesn't matter. But you're an individual......

I only pass along what the Church teaches. I quote the fathers because the Church quotes them. I believe in an infallible Church, and I believe all the Church teaches. You want to know what I believe? Its all right here:
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm

Where do you get this idea that the Pope is infallible?

You can read info about it right here:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

 

[Scott1]

Where do you get this idea that the Pope is infallible?

Hey Mark... take the time to read the links CC offered... but I'll give you the "short" version:
we believe the same Holy Spirit that led the writers of the NT books to lead the Bishop of Rome. The Bible is not inerrant because of the men who wrote it, and the Pope is infallible (with teahings on faith and morals only-- he's still a sinner personally) by the same power of the Holy Spirit.

Peace,
S

 

[Biblereader]

So the Holy Spirit guides you but not the millions of Christians who believe otherwise.

I didn't say that. But we do receive various gifts and if we have more then we are given more.

[quote:3557f]Hey, I'll bet you don't believe in Papal Infallibility huh. BUT, to contradict YOU is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Wow. Well hells bells, lets call the Vatican and tell them they can all go home. We have a direct conduit to God now, through you.

[/quote:3557f]

OK. Sounds like a good idea. But I didn't say I was infallible or perfect in any way.

Hey, MarkT, don't let the naysayers bother you. This is typical diatribe.