What does it mean to be Born-Again?

[stovebolts]

Because it is the father who establishes the DNA, the bloodline. It is the father who begets.


JLB

I'm not following you... Are you saying death came through Adam because Adam was God's son?
Please explain your view on this, and then I will share mine.

Also, you know my free time to post is limited. Can we try and keep our responses together? You've replied many times, and for me, it makes it difficult to have a flowing conversation.

I agree with most all of what you are saying.


I would like to discuss how Adam’s one sin and the death that resulted from that one sin, was passed on to all of us.

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. Romans 5:18


You know what I believe, and you sharply disagree.


Please share with me your thoughts about how Adam’s one sin and death was passed on to all mankind.

JLB

Sure...

Genesis 3:22-24
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Humanity was exiled from the garden, unable to eat from the tree of life...

 

[stovebolts]

We are not born perfect, as Adam was made by God.
We are born with the sin nature within us...

Adam wasn't made perfect... Good, but not perfect.

 

[GodsGrace]

Adam wasn't made perfect... Good, but not perfect.

Why wasn't Adam made perfectly?
Did God make him purposely faulty so as to sin?

 

[JLB]

I'm not following you... Are you saying death came through Adam because Adam was God's son?
Please explain your view on this, and then I will share mine.

Im saying that sin dwells in the physical body.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12


The seed of man (sperm) is a part of the physical body, and is passed on to the offspring of Adam.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Sure...

Genesis 3:22-24
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Humanity was exiled from the garden, unable to eat from the tree of life...

I was asking about how Adam’s one sin and death was passed on to all mankind.


Is it your understanding that God intended all of Mankind to live in the garden of Eden?


Remember, His mandate for all mankind is to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth, and have dominion.


I dont see how all the people that would fill the earth as it is today, would be able to fit in the Garden of Eden, to have access to the tree of life.


Adam’s sin and the death associated with that sin spread to all mankind.

• and thus death spread to all men

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— Romans 12.5



How did Adam’s sin spread to us?


Why would God deny the tree of life to Adam’s children if they were sinless, containing no sin passed on from Adam?


Earlier you mentioned that the children were not punished for the sin of their father?



JLB

 

[stovebolts]

I was asking about how Adam’s one sin and death was passed on to all mankind.


Is it your understanding that God intended all of Mankind to live in the garden of Eden?


Remember, His mandate for all mankind is to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth, and have dominion.


I dont see how all the people that would fill the earth as it is today, would be able to fit in the Garden of Eden, to have access to the tree of life.


Adam’s sin and the death associated with that sin spread to all mankind.

• and thus death spread to all men

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— Romans 12.5



How did Adam’s sin spread to us?


Why would God deny the tree of life to Adam’s children if they were sinless, containing no sin passed on from Adam?


Earlier you mentioned that the children were not punished for the sin of their father?



JLB

Thanks for explaining. From the offset, we will both see Romans differently in this matter. Lord willing, we'll get to where we can speak from the NT soon. My fear is that if I don't lay an OT theological view, we'll end up throwing passages back and forth. That being said, I am glad that for all the posts we've shared on this matter, we are in agreement.

Here is a condensed version of the theology I hold and I hope it sheds some light on some of the questions you've asked, as well as providing the foundation for my belief. I'm not going to provide scripture, but I assume you will know where to find them.

When God created Adam, He blew into him and Adam became a living soul. That breath is the spark that is in every human being. We we're created from the dust of the earth, intimately formed by God, and divinely infused with His Spirit, which is not to be confused with our comforter. This is why Solomon says that when we die, our bodies go back to the earth and the Spirit goes back to God and also why Solomon's Father, David States that we are beautifully and wonderfully made. It is also why God desires all to be saved, and none remain lost. In essence, were divine dirt clods lol!

Adam had a task, and to your point, his task was to expand the size of Eden and God equiped Adam for this task. We can see this in Revelation as the Tree is surrounded by a great city. So we see that Eden started out as a garden, but grows into a city.

If we look at the creation account, God creates through His creation. For example, he brings forth the land, but then he empowers the land to bring forth both plants and animals. God is then credited for the plants and animals.

In the same way, the children of Adam were also sons of God similar to how you and I are also sons of God.

When Adam sinned, it was a willful sin unlike Eve's sin which was through deception. St. Paul brings this out in his letter to Timothy and by proxy contrasts himself with Eve when he tells of how he was deceived into persecuting Christians. Yet, when his eyes were opened he repented. However, his destruction was emminant had he not repented. In short, God sends non believers the Holy Spirit to bring them to repentance. If they harden their hearts, God is apt to harden their heart, and their destruction is sure. God will not harden a heart that isn't already hardened, which is why we are warned of allowing a bitter root to take hold.

Because Adam was not deceived, but knew better and because Adam was to be the spiritual leader (Eve was his helper), God held him accountable for his willful disobedience. Again, James speaks to this.

This is how I understand that death came through Adam, and not Eve. As far as Adams sperm, Eve is called the mother of all living and I think that's significant, and for several reasons.

Because of Adams Sin, the earth was cursed and humanity was exiled from the garden.

We like to think that sin only effects ourselves, but it doesn't. It effects those around us, and multiplies exponentially to those around them. Our sin impacts multiple dynamics around us. Our greed causes the poor to go hungry, we exploit the land to line our own pickets, we stop sharing, we become judgmental and callous towed those that offend us and the list goes on.

Adams sin effects us all. We all die, and we all live in a broken world. In a way, we were all exiled from God.

But thanks be to God for His son, who's ministry was that of reconciliation.

That's a 50,000 view of the theology I ascribe to. Hope that helps brother.

 

[stovebolts]

Why wasn't Adam made perfectly?
Did God make him purposely faulty so as to sin?

You'll have to show me where God says Adam was perfect. Best I could find was "Very Good".
Ironically, according to the writer of Hebrews, Jesus was perfected through His suffering. Odd, don't you think?

 

[JLB]

In the same way, the children of Adam were also sons of God similar to how you and I are also sons of God.

Cant agree with you on this one.

But I’m enjoying reading your post.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Adams sin effects us all. We all die, and we all live in a broken world. In a way, we were all exiled from God.

But thanks be to God for His son, who's ministry was that of reconciliation.

Amen. On this we can agree.



JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Cant agree with you on this one.

But I’m enjoying reading your post.




JLB

I know ?

You view the sons of God as the fallen angels. It's not really a conversation I wish to persue lol.

 

[JLB]

Thanks for explaining. From the offset, we will both see Romans differently in this matter. Lord willing, we'll get to where we can speak from the NT soon. My fear is that if I don't lay an OT theological view, we'll end up throwing passages back and forth. That being said, I am glad that for all the posts we've shared on this matter, we are in agreement.

Here is a condensed version of the theology I hold and I hope it sheds some light on some of the questions you've asked, as well as providing the foundation for my belief. I'm not going to provide scripture, but I assume you will know where to find them.

When God created Adam, He blew into him and Adam became a living soul. That breath is the spark that is in every human being. We we're created from the dust of the earth, intimately formed by God, and divinely infused with His Spirit, which is not to be confused with our comforter. This is why Solomon says that when we die, our bodies go back to the earth and the Spirit goes back to God and also why Solomon's Father, David States that we are beautifully and wonderfully made. It is also why God desires all to be saved, and none remain lost. In essence, were divine dirt clods lol!

Adam had a task, and to your point, his task was to expand the size of Eden and God equiped Adam for this task. We can see this in Revelation as the Tree is surrounded by a great city. So we see that Eden started out as a garden, but grows into a city.

If we look at the creation account, God creates through His creation. For example, he brings forth the land, but then he empowers the land to bring forth both plants and animals. God is then credited for the plants and animals.

In the same way, the children of Adam were also sons of God similar to how you and I are also sons of God.

When Adam sinned, it was a willful sin unlike Eve's sin which was through deception. St. Paul brings this out in his letter to Timothy and by proxy contrasts himself with Eve when he tells of how he was deceived into persecuting Christians. Yet, when his eyes were opened he repented. However, his destruction was emminant had he not repented. In short, God sends non believers the Holy Spirit to bring them to repentance. If they harden their hearts, God is apt to harden their heart, and their destruction is sure. God will not harden a heart that isn't already hardened, which is why we are warned of allowing a bitter root to take hold.

Because Adam was not deceived, but knew better and because Adam was to be the spiritual leader (Eve was his helper), God held him accountable for his willful disobedience. Again, James speaks to this.

This is how I understand that death came through Adam, and not Eve. As far as Adams sperm, Eve is called the mother of all living and I think that's significant, and for several reasons.

Because of Adams Sin, the earth was cursed and humanity was exiled from the garden.

We like to think that sin only effects ourselves, but it doesn't. It effects those around us, and multiplies exponentially to those around them. Our sin impacts multiple dynamics around us. Our greed causes the poor to go hungry, we exploit the land to line our own pickets, we stop sharing, we become judgmental and callous towed those that offend us and the list goes on.

Adams sin effects us all. We all die, and we all live in a broken world. In a way, we were all exiled from God.

But thanks be to God for His son, who's ministry was that of reconciliation.

That's a 50,000 view of the theology I ascribe to. Hope that helps brother.

I agree with most of what you say.


Thanks for taking the time to write this post.



God bless you.




JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Amen. On this we can agree.



JLB

Over all, we agree on the end result. We get there differently, but we get there.

Enjoyed talking with you too.

 

[JLB]

I know ?

You view the sons of God as the fallen angels. It's not really a conversation I wish to persue lol.

Not fallen angels as in Satans bunch.

Angels.


I’m greatful for this forum and the important things we can agree on.


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Not fallen angels as in Satans bunch.

Angels.


I’m greatful for this forum and the important things we can agree on.


JLB

I'm grateful that we agree on more than we disagree on. But mostly, I'm thankful that you know scripture as well as you do, and we are able to build one another up. You always cause me to look closely at each passage.

 

[GodsGrace]

You'll have to show me where God says Adam was perfect. Best I could find was "Very Good".
Ironically, according to the writer of Hebrews, Jesus was perfected through His suffering. Odd, don't you think?

The Garden of Eden was only very good?
It was exceedingly good if we want to go by words in Genesis.

But it seems to me that everything in the Garden was made by God to be perfect.

The plants were perfect...
man's needs were taken care of....
Adam and Eve were immortal and knew about everything (infused knowledge) and had a real relationship with God.
They were in the proper relationship, as God meant it to be, with each other, with nature and with God.
If the fall had not taken place...this state of perfection would have continued.


It was not until man fell and became cursed that all this changed.
The relationship between persons was ruined...
Genesis 3:15-17

The relationship with nature was ruined...
Genesis 3:17b-19

The relationship with God was ruined...
Genesis 3:24

And man lost his own healthy well-being....
Genesis 3:11


How much more perfect could it have been?

 

[stovebolts]

How much more perfect could it have been?

Perfect, in the creation epic indicates completed, or finished. I have not verified this with Strong's, or a Hebrew concordance, but I can if you want me to.

When we look at each day of creation, God does not look back and say perfect. Instead, he says that it is good. When creation was completed, he looks back and calls the entire summation of creation very good.
Genesis 1:31
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Again, maybe we start with Strong's with a simple word search on perfect and good and compare them. Then, we can take both words into a Hebrew concordance and even pull out some Jewish commentary. I'd be more than happy to do this work for us if you want, but only as long as you would have patience as I am juggling many plates, and this is low on my priority

It was not until man fell and became cursed that all this changed.

Genesis 3:17-19
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

I see no mention of Adam being cursed. The ground, yes. But not Adam. Instead, Adam would feel the effects of his sin. As explained to JLB earlier, our sin does not effect just us. It always causes others and things around us suffering.

Adam rightly named all of creation in it's perfect harmony that once surrounded him. Every thistle and every thorn was a reminder of how his disobedience knocked that harmony out of balance. This isn't just about Adams sweat. It's as much, if not more about the land.

Romans 8:32
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

 

[stovebolts]

Just did a quick check.

Genesis 1, good
Strong's 2896
As an adjective, in the widest sence; used likewise as a noun. Etc

Genesis 6:9 perfect
Strong's 8549
From 8552
Entire; as noun, integrity, truth:-without blemish, complete, full, sincerely. Sound, without spot, undefiled, upright, whole.

I'm curious, why do you think Moses speaks of Noah as being perfect, yet speaks of Adam as only being, "good".

I don't have an answer, but it's worth pursuing in the Hebrew language and within their culture.

 

[GodsGrace]

Perfect, in the creation epic indicates completed, or finished. I have not verified this with Strong's, or a Hebrew concordance, but I can if you want me to.

When we look at each day of creation, God does not look back and say perfect. Instead, he says that it is good. When creation was completed, he looks back and calls the entire summation of creation very good.
Genesis 1:31
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Again, maybe we start with Strong's with a simple word search on perfect and good and compare them. Then, we can take both words into a Hebrew concordance and even pull out some Jewish commentary. I'd be more than happy to do this work for us if you want, but only as long as you would have patience as I am juggling many plates, and this is low on my priority

I happen to like the story of Adam and Eve very much.
If you're too busy to discuss - it's no problem. An exchange of ideas is always enjoyed by me regarding this topic.

No Greek or Hebrew lexicons necessary!
Perfect does mean complete, as when Jesus said to be perfect, like our Father in Heaven is perfect --- He knew we couldn't be perfect in the sense that we understand it today.

But God called what He made VERY GOOD.
Consider this:
When man makes something, he causes his imperfection to go into what he makes. Man is now imperfect and so makes imperfect things (and even has imperfect relationships).

This is the question:
When God, who IS PERFECT, made the Garden,,,did He not make it perfectly? If not, did He purposefully put imperfection in us?
Or is this imperfection a result of our disobedience to God's command?

It is my understanding of Geneses 1 to 3 that God did make everything to perfection --- but also let us have free will and it's this free will that caused everything to become disorganized and damaged.

Genesis 3:17-19
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

I see no mention of Adam being cursed. The ground, yes. But not Adam. Instead, Adam would feel the effects of his sin. As explained to JLB earlier, our sin does not effect just us. It always causes others and things around us suffering.

i mentioned about how our sin does not affect only us,,,but also our relationship with others, with nature, and with God.

As to the curse---yes, Adam was cursed.
The word doesn't have to be there for this to be the case.
Was man not sursed? Was woman not cursed? Even the snake was cursed.

God made a covenant with Adam....
The Edenic Covenant. This covenant had conditions.
Genesis 1:26-30
27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
28God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
29Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so.

Genesis 2:16-17 This is the covenant, which was conditinal...
16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”


God gave to man all of the creation but man had to obey God and not eat from one tree in the Garden. This was the condition.
The blessing was that Adam was lord over the land....he was immortal and had a relationship with God.
The curse was to be death due to the knowledge which would be unleashedfrom that Tree.
The curse was to be separation from God and all those benefits.
Death would be both physical and spiritual.

Adam rightly named all of creation in it's perfect harmony that once surrounded him. Every thistle and every thorn was a reminder of how his disobedience knocked that harmony out of balance. This isn't just about Adams sweat. It's as much, if not more about the land.

Perfect Harmony,,,,well said.
It was about the land, and relationships, and death.

Romans 8:32
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Right!
Even nature is waiting to go back to its "perfect harmony".

 

[GodsGrace]

Just did a quick check.

Genesis 1, good
Strong's 2896
As an adjective, in the widest sence; used likewise as a noun. Etc

Genesis 6:9 perfect
Strong's 8549
From 8552
Entire; as noun, integrity, truth:-without blemish, complete, full, sincerely. Sound, without spot, undefiled, upright, whole.

I'm curious, why do you think Moses speaks of Noah as being perfect, yet speaks of Adam as only being, "good".

I don't have an answer, but it's worth pursuing in the Hebrew language and within their culture.

Hmmm. Never noticed the above.
About Moses, I mean.

 

[stovebolts]

I happen to like the story of Adam and Eve very much.
If you're too busy to discuss - it's no problem. An exchange of ideas is always enjoyed by me regarding this topic.

No Greek or Hebrew lexicons necessary!
Perfect does mean complete, as when Jesus said to be perfect, like our Father in Heaven is perfect --- He knew we couldn't be perfect in the sense that we understand it today.

But God called what He made VERY GOOD.
Consider this:
When man makes something, he causes his imperfection to go into what he makes. Man is now imperfect and so makes imperfect things (and even has imperfect relationships).

This is the question:
When God, who IS PERFECT, made the Garden,,,did He not make it perfectly? If not, did He purposefully put imperfection in us?
Or is this imperfection a result of our disobedience to God's command?

It is my understanding of Geneses 1 to 3 that God did make everything to perfection --- but also let us have free will and it's this free will that caused everything to become disorganized and damaged.


i mentioned about how our sin does not affect only us,,,but also our relationship with others, with nature, and with God.

As to the curse---yes, Adam was cursed.
The word doesn't have to be there for this to be the case.
Was man not sursed? Was woman not cursed? Even the snake was cursed.

God made a covenant with Adam....
The Edenic Covenant. This covenant had conditions.
Genesis 1:26-30
27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
28God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
29Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so.

Genesis 2:16-17 This is the covenant, which was conditinal...
16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”


God gave to man all of the creation but man had to obey God and not eat from one tree in the Garden. This was the condition.
The blessing was that Adam was lord over the land....he was immortal and had a relationship with God.
The curse was to be death due to the knowledge which would be unleashedfrom that Tree.
The curse was to be separation from God and all those benefits.
Death would be both physical and spiritual.


Perfect Harmony,,,,well said.
It was about the land, and relationships, and death.


Right!
Even nature is waiting to go back to its "perfect harmony".

I understand how your reasoning the word perfect. However, that's not how Moses reasoned by power of the Holy Spirit when he was directed to use good, not perfect

My objective when going to scripture is not to put my view on scripture, but rather for scripture to form my view. It's not always easy.

My point is this, and Strong's bears this out. Why did Moses call Noah perfect, but Adam only good?

In other words, why would I alter the original narrative from it's intended purpose?

The Holy Spirit had a purpose in using those specific words in those specific places, so I want to tread lightly before I simply reason why Adam was "perfect" when the Holy Spirit prompted Moses to write "good".

I don't think we can get there without looking the words up in a Hebrew Lexicon and reading the Sages on the matter.