What does it mean to be Born-Again?

[JLB]

I not only disagree, but my theology actually lines up closer to Serving Zion

Deuteronomy 24:16
English Standard Version
“Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20
English Standard Version
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Adam was created without sin. However, he was created with the potential to sin. It's hard for some to grasp that God created Adam with the potential to sin. But God did create humanity with the potential to sin, yet humanity was created sinless.

In this same way, children are both created and born without sin. That being said, like Adam, they have the potential to sin. This is simply to say that as a child grows, they have the potential to be disobedient.

Here, David ascribes God's workmanship.

Psalm 139:14 New International Version
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

No doubt we are fearfully and wonderfully made.

However this doesn’t mean that Adam’s sin wasn’t passed on to the human race.


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— Romans 5:12


Each person has sin in there physical body that is passed on to them from their father.


IOW, a person who has sin in their physical body can not somehow procreate a “sinless“ child.


Now you and I agree, that children, until they reach a certain age are considered as “innocent”, because they neither know good from evil, (Deuteronomy 1:39) however this doesn’t mean they don’t have sin residing in their flesh, nor does it mean they have never sinned.



We all know a 7 year old child must be corrected and even spanked for their disobedience yet it seems they are not accountable until a certain age.


It’s my belief that the sin that resides in human fathers, even in their blood, is passed on to their offspring.



JLB

 

[stovebolts]

It’s my belief that the sin that resides in human fathers, even in their blood, is passed on to their offspring.

And this is where you and I will sharply disagree and we will both view the same scriptures differently because of our differences

The foundation which builds my theology is rooted in the creation account.

So, if you would oblidge, let's center on that and then work our way out.

Do you agree that Adam and Eve were both sinless, yet we're created with the potential to sin?

 

[JLB]

Deuteronomy 24:16
English Standard Version
“Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

This is a good scripture.

It shows us that children can indeed sin.

It doesn’t necessarily indicate that the sin that dwells in the father’s physical body including his blood, isn’t passed on to his child through procreation.


To me it would be unwise to think a son who looks exactly like his father having the same physical characteristics, does have his fathers bloodline and DNA.


Little children don’t have to have a person physically teach them to sin, they have it built in to their physical body, having been passed on from their father.



JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Little children don’t have to have a person physically teach them to sin, they have it built in to their physical body, having been passed on from their father.

I agree with your entire post.
But I did quote the above to ask you one simple question.
Who was Adams Father...

 

[JLB]

Do you agree that Adam and Eve were both sinless, yet we're created with the potential to sin?

I agree that the Lord created both Adam and Eve Himself and they were sinless, unlike the rest of mankind who were begotten from Adam, and their fathers.


Yes, though Adam and Eve were sinless they disobeyed God.


I don’t believe they were created with the potential to sin.


I believe Eve was defiled by Satan when she entered into
“communication” with him, and he defiled her by what came out of his heart into her.
See the principle of defilement Mark 7:27-23


JLB

 

[JLB]

I agree with your entire post.
But I did quote the above to ask you one simple question.
Who was Adams Father...

God

 

[JLB]

I agree with your entire post.
But I did quote the above to ask you one simple question.
Who was Adams Father...

Notice that Eve did not “see” that the tree was good to make her wise (wisdom from Satan) until her encounter with Satan, where he lied to her. See “The Lie”.


Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Genesis 3:4-6


She now had the ability to see, and desire for herself apart from God, and lusted for this wisdom.


She became defiled from Satan.



JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Yes, though Adam and Eve were sinless they disobeyed God.


I don’t believe they were created with the potential to sin.

Since death came through Adam, let's not venture off to Eve just yet.

From Google:. Potential
having or showing the capacity to become or develop into something in the future.

As we both agree, God was the Father of Adam. Furthermore, scripture States:

Genesis 1:26 a
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

If Adam did not have the potential to sin, then how is it that he sinned?

 

[stovebolts]

Since death came through Adam, let's not venture off to Eve just yet.

From Google:. Potential
having or showing the capacity to become or develop into something in the future.

As we both agree, God was the Father of Adam. Furthermore, scripture States:

Genesis 1:26 a
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

If Adam did not have the potential to sin, then how is it that he sinned?

JLB
Let me add this, if I may.

Genesis 1:29
And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Please note:. Every Tree

Genesis 2:16-27 a
16And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:

We see that Adam did indeed have the potential to eat of the tree of good and evil. Why? Because Adam had the ability to choose life, or choose death.

Furthermore, God would not issue a commandment that we did not have the potential to either keep or break.

When we talk about potential, were talking about ability and choice. But moreso, we are held accountable for the choices we make.

Here is my reasoning.

God created Adam with the potential to disobey Him. Had Adam not been created with the ability to disobey God, there would be no purpose to God's commandment not to eat from the Tree of Good and Evil.

God gave Adam a commandment along with the consequence for willful disobedience. Adam understood this commandment, yet willfully disobeyed.

We will both agree that death entered through Adams willful disobedience. But sin was present in the garden prior to the fall. How? Through the serpent, who was a liar from the beginning and just happened to be hanging out to beguile Eve.

I am trying to restrain myself, lest we wander.

So, bringing it back full circle. I reason Adam had the potential to sin, and he did indeed sin, just like the rest of us. Adam acted on that potential through the willful choice he made.

We have that same choice

Deuteronomy 30:19
King James Version
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Earlier you quoted Romans. Paul is exegeting the backside of Deuteronomy 28.

 

[JLB]

If Adam did not have the potential to sin, then how is it that he sinned?

After Eve was defiled by Satan, because the issue of corruption within him entered her heart, she in turn went to Adam and corrupted him, and offered him the fruit she had taken.

It seems defilement weakens us to give in to sin.

Whereas the Spirit strengthens us to reign in dominion over sin.


Yes, we see that through Adam, the sin and death was passed on to his offspring. This alone should tell us that through his bloodline that became corrupt, sin and death is passed on by the father, not the mother, which is why Jesus was born of a virgin, being free from Joseph’s tainted bloodline.

Eve was deceived and was first to sin, then she gave some to Adam to eat.

So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Genesis 3:6


Adam didn’t take directly from the tree, he took from Eve the fruit she offered him.

Nevertheless, Adam sinned by eating of the fruit.


Adam and Eve were created in the image and likeness of God.


Does this mean they were created with the potential to sin?


To me this is insinuating that God designed in man the potential to sin. I don’t see it this way.

I do believe that angels and born again Christians as well as Adam as a son of God, can be deceived into disobeying God, which is sin.


To me, this comes from freewill, rather than an predetermined design with the potential to sin.


This brings us to Jesus, the only begotten Son of God.



JLB

 

[JLB]

So, bringing it back full circle. I reason Adam had the potential to sin, and he did indeed sin, just like the rest of us. Adam acted on that potential through the willful choice he made.

I agree that Adam had the potential to sin because of freewill, just as he had the potential not to sin, because of freewill.




JLB

 

[stovebolts]

I agree that Adam had the potential to sin because of freewill, just as he had the potential not to sin, because of freewill.

JLB

Freewill is nothing more than the ability to make a choice...

When we make a choice knowing the consequence, it is a choice of the will. We can choose death, or we can choose life.

Adam choose death.

Adam was created with the ability to make that choice, regardless of why he reasoned his justification. Like yourself, Adam shifts responsibility of his actions to Eve. He no longer considers her "bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh". Instead, he refers to her as, "The one you gave me". My, how things changed as blame gets shifted. Chaos between he and her were fractured.

What does God do? He holds Adam accountable because he knew better, and instead of leading, he succumbed and willfully disobeyed God. His will, not God's will.

Death came through Adam, not Eve. Why? Because Eve was beguiled. Adam, on the other hand willfully disobeyed God. That kind of sin always leads to death. St. James speaks on this.

Again, Adam was created with the ability to choose. He willfully choose death. We all willfully choose death, don't we?

This tells me that Adam had the potential to do good, just as he had to potential to do evil. It's all about choice.

So no, we don't carry a sin Gene, nor do we inherit sin from our parents and no, it's not in our blood. It's in what we do, based on what we believe and hold as truth.

 

[JLB]

Freewill is nothing more than the ability to make a choice...

When we make a choice knowing the consequence, it is a choice of the will. We can choose death, or we can choose life.

Adam choose death.

Agreed.

 

[JLB]

Death came through Adam, not Eve. Why?

Because it is the father who establishes the DNA, the bloodline. It is the father who begets.


JLB

 

[JLB]

This tells me that Adam had the potential to do good, just as he had to potential to do evil. It's all about choice.

Agreed.

 

[JLB]

Death came through Adam, not Eve. Why? Because Eve was beguiled. Adam, on the other hand willfully disobeyed God. That kind of sin always leads to death. St. James speaks on this.

Adam disobeyed God just as Eve disobeyed.


JLB

 

[JLB]

So no, we don't carry a sin Gene, nor do we inherit sin from our parents and no, it's not in our blood. It's in what we do, based on what we believe and hold as truth.

Adam passed on his sin and death to mankind.


For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. Romans 5:19

How did Adams one act of disobedience cause all mankind to be sinners?

James explains how each individual person is drawn away and sins.

This does not deal with how Adam’s one act of disobedience affects all mankind.

The scripture says Adam’s one sin and death was passed on to all mankind.


What you are explaining is how each person has a choice to sin or obey, (which I agree with) not how Adam’s sin and death was passed to mankind.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Freewill is nothing more than the ability to make a choice...

When we make a choice knowing the consequence, it is a choice of the will. We can choose death, or we can choose life.

Adam choose death.

Adam was created with the ability to make that choice, regardless of why he reasoned his justification. Like yourself, Adam shifts responsibility of his actions to Eve. He no longer considers her "bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh". Instead, he refers to her as, "The one you gave me". My, how things changed as blame gets shifted. Chaos between he and her were fractured.

What does God do? He holds Adam accountable because he knew better, and instead of leading, he succumbed and willfully disobeyed God. His will, not God's will.

Death came through Adam, not Eve. Why? Because Eve was beguiled. Adam, on the other hand willfully disobeyed God. That kind of sin always leads to death. St. James speaks on this.

Again, Adam was created with the ability to choose. He willfully choose death. We all willfully choose death, don't we?

This tells me that Adam had the potential to do good, just as he had to potential to do evil. It's all about choice.

So no, we don't carry a sin Gene, nor do we inherit sin from our parents and no, it's not in our blood. It's in what we do, based on what we believe and hold as truth.

I agree with most all of what you are saying.


I would like to discuss how Adam’s one sin and the death that resulted from that one sin, was passed on to all of us.

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. Romans 5:18


You know what I believe, and you sharply disagree.


Please share with me your thoughts about how Adam’s one sin and death was passed on to all mankind.




JLB

 

[JLB]

The thing that we can all agree on is:

We all need a Savior, not matter how we came to be a sinner, we all need Jesus.

Thank God for the cross.

Thank God, He sent His only begotten Son to die for us, that we can have eternal life.

That we can be free from the bondage of sin.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I not only disagree, but my theology actually lines up closer to Serving Zion

Deuteronomy 24:16
English Standard Version
“Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20
English Standard Version
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Adam was created without sin. However, he was created with the potential to sin. It's hard for some to grasp that God created Adam with the potential to sin. But God did create humanity with the potential to sin, yet humanity was created sinless.

In this same way, children are both created and born without sin. That being said, like Adam, they have the potential to sin. This is simply to say that as a child grows, they have the potential to be disobedient.

Here, David ascribes God's workmanship.

Psalm 139:14 New International Version
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

How is Serving Zion 's theology different?
I've had this discussion with him, and we believe the same but use different words.

NO ONE here is saying that we are responsible for our father's sins.

But, due to Adam's fall, we are born the the EFFECT of that fall.
We are not personally responsible for it, but we suffer because of it.

We are not born perfect, as Adam was made by God.
We are born with the sin nature within us...
some call it the flesh...or other names...
some call it concupiscense.
It just means that we are not born perfectly,,,as Adam was.

Genesis 3:22 The man now knew good AND evil....so man became infested with the evil....before he knew ONLY the good...now good and evil made up man. No more would he be an innocent being.

To clarify...
Children are not born with the sin of Adam...
only with its effect.

Children do not personally sin until the age of reason...
At that point they are held PERSONALLY responsible for their sin.