What does it mean to be Born-Again?

[Serving Zion]

What your saying is... by many peoples disobedience they were made sinners.

How can a sinful father, pass on a sinless bloodline to his offspring?

Sin is not inherited by blood. It is a spiritual disease that has infected the world and it is a cunning parasite that is always trying to infect everyone. It has the upper hand in these days because "the whole world lies in the power of the wicked one" and "creation groans eagerly with birth pains even until now, in hope of the day that creation will be set free from bondage to decay and into the glorious freedom of the sons of God".

You owe me some answers already, and I will not continue to engage with you if you will not engage cooperatively with me:

Do you have any scriptures that say mankind is born with a body that is sinless?

Ecclesiastes 7:29 says it. Can you show me yours?

Do you believe Cain and Able were born with flesh that contained no sin?

JLB

Yes I do. Is there a scripture that you think that view does not fit with?

James 1:14-15, doesn’t address how the one man’s sin and death spread to all men.

It shows how an individual person is drawn away by their own desires to sin.

Why do you see those as being two different things?

 

[JLB]

You owe me some answers already, and I will not continue to engage with you if you will not engage cooperatively with me:

I will answer one question at a time, and then I expect you to answer my question.

Please post the scripture that pertains to any answer or statement.


Posting a scripture reference such as Ecclesiastes 7:29 isnot a scripture but simply a reference.


Answering my question by saying James 1:14 explains it, is not an answer, but is just a another scripture reference.


If you can agree to dialog in this manner and be civil without your derogatory comments and insinuations then you may have the right to demand answers.


So with that being said, you can answer my original question that you dodged earlier in the discussion, where you said...
“James 1:14-15 explains it.”

From post number 63 —


How did the sin and death that entered the world through the one man, spread to all men?




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus did love the little children. Jesus also loved women, poor people, lepers, outcasts. Basically...

Jesus showed a softer, gentler love towards the masses of His society...who did.not.matter to most people. Children often died by infanticide in ancient cultures. Under Roman law, a father could sell his offspring into slavery to pay off -his- debts. Female children, in particular, were often sold off, mistreated, or ended up dead by infanticide.

I am thankful for Christ and His love for -all- people, especially since He has shown mighty love towards love of low status people that simply isn't available to them/us in the world. now...

Until the Victorian era or so, children weren't really...held in high regard. Some time in the 19th century, a mix of economic changes (read: the rise of a middle and upper middle class) and social changes = a whole new sort of childhood, for those who could afford it. Children's books and toys and literature for and about children...

do keep in mind, though, that at the same time, the poor and working class children were often facing hard, relatively short lives...working long hours at young ages, poor living conditions, many even ended up in prostitution at young (read: not legal in today's society) ages...

and that was just the way the world worked. Actually...with growing media coverage of trafficking, child abuse, and taking a more international view of things...

-sigh- it would appear that, for a whole lot of this planet, that's -still- the way the world works. :-(

I just mention that to say that the view of children as innocent, in need of nurturing and protection...is relatively recent. I'm -thankful- that the view has since permeated all levels of culture (to a point...), because it beats the alternatives, clearly. thing is...

(progressive, much appreciated) social changes aside, Scripture is fairly clear that all are born in sin. I'm reminded here of what Jesus saves His children from: sin, satan, self, death, and The World.

You said:

I'm reminded here of what Jesus saves His children from: sin, satan, self, death, and The World.

 

[GodsGrace]

The physical and spiritual deaths are different things.

If Jesus was walking around, as Adam would have been if he had not have fallen, he would have resurrected anybody that He loved, right? God's vision was exactly that "in Him was life, and the life was the light of mankind" .. but what happened? God said "the man has become as one of us, knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take and eat from the tree of life and live forever..." so Adonai drove the man out of the garden, saying "dust you are, and to dust you will return".

The spiritual death comes as a result of the choosing to abandon obedience (Romans 6:16, Romans 7:9), that in that moment, the thief takes us captive and we begin walking in the darkness.

Of course physical death and spiritual death are different, but both happened in the Garden...or at the fall of man.
Man was made with preternatural gifts....
one of them was immortality --- this was lost. We agree.
Instead a natural gift was also given....fellowship with God ... this was also lost.

I think we're agreeing but not on what is causing the sin in man.
Romans 6:16 tells us we can choose our own master --- correct.
We are slaves to the one we serve.
The problem is that we naturally serve satan...it takes being born of above to make us serve God.

We have to come to this realization...there is no middle ground. We either serve the prince of this world...or we choose to serve God. We are slaves to the one we serve...so: If we do not come to know God and serve HIM....we will surely be lost.

The point is in Romans 6:12 which tells us not to let sin control us.
WHY does Paul tell us this? What is letting sin control us?

And here is where, I think, we are saying the same idea, perhaps,,,,but with a nuance I can't quite understand.

YOU say we get this sin from the world.
I say we get it from the sin nature with which we are born.
Well, isn't the world also infected with this sin nature?
Romans 8:19-22
19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

When Adam fell, mankind lost his relationship with ...
Himself
Others
Nature
God

Everything became infected with sin....
It's this infection that we are born with - whatever you want to call it. It's inherent in man because of the fall. It's inherent in his nature.

Remember that children are not born being liars. They become liars because they learn that grown-ups can't be trusted with the truth. It is the devil that is the father of lies, and thus, when we come to an age when we begin concealing our true actions, there is the spiritual death. "Adam, where are you?" .. and they are hiding from the truth, a spirit that is not of the light gets into them. That is why they need to be spiritually reborn - born again - born from above - born of the spirit - born of God.

My experience is that children lie to protect themselves....
they are egotistical and it is the exceptional child that does not lie and has honor...most children do not.

However, I agree with the rest of what you've said.
Except that you say:
a spirit that is not of the light gets into them. That is why they need to be spiritually reborn -

This may be our difference. You say a spirit of darkness gets into them. How? You mean satan actually oppresses them, each and every person?

I don't put that age on it, because it depends upon the particular sin and their individual maturity. Romans 7:9 just says it so beautifully, as does Romans 7:7 and Romans 7:11.

Romans gets into the law and I'd rather avoid this right now since it doesn't seem relevant to me to our discussion....maybe I'm wrong.

The reason is that I agree with your statement.

No, it isn't baptism.

You don't believe the water in John 3:5 is baptism....OK.

Yes, that is ok to say, but technically not right, and it doesn't convey the real value of the meaning - which is why it has become "Christianese" and most people don't really understand it. That's why I have said it is a bad translation and it is better to say "born from above". It conveys a much more descriptive meaning.

Agreed. I also believe this term of being born again is taken to mean all sorts of things.

Exactly! Babies aren't born with sinful desires. Where does it come from? (Please offer some examples if you disagree).

I think I've covered this above.
The sinful desires come from the fall....
They come from our fallen nature which is now sinful....
Adam's sin has infected all of mankind.
Through one man, sin had entered....
Romans 5:12
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

1 Corinthians 15:21
21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

The above is referring to the resurrection...
By one man death entered into the world (physical)
and through one man all through Him will be resurrected.
The same is true for spiritual death.
It enterd through one man,,,and God had planned the solution to be through Jesus.

Flesh nature is with us since birth, sure. But flesh nature is not the same as sin nature. Jesus ate because His flesh was hungry, but He didn't sin by doing so. The flesh nature doesn't automatically become sinful. Sin comes through the corruption of the human nature that is introduced through the experience of distress and the fear of it.

I won't argue this point,,,but some call it the flesh nature and some call it the sin nature. This has nothing to do with eating to maintain the flesh (or body) of man...but flesh in the sense of something being carnal.

I agree that sin comes through the corruption of human nature,,,we disagree as to how it gets there.
I do believe the bible teaches that we are born with it.

That's ok, and I do find that children receive the breath of life immediately when I meet them. Especially babies. That's why Jesus says "see to it that you do not despise these little ones".

Agreed.

They aren't born that way though and we can discuss that a bit more if you'd like to give examples.

We disagree here. This is the crux of our disagreement.
I had said:
Children are sinful. Children are good when their parents teach them to be good. Left to their own devices, they are not good. Some are, of course, but most are not. They pick at each other, make fun of each other, steal from each other, call each other names, hit each other, and some violently.

You want examples????!!!
Don't you know any kids??

I could give you examples but it seems so unnecessary!

That's Romans 7:7 for you, isn't it? .. and Romans 5:13 for all intents and purposes (ie: the law effectively doesn't exist if it isn't made known, right? Otherwise the law would have applied all that time while it existed in God's view but was not yet made known through Moses).

Hmmm. Maybe the law will have to be discussed.
If so, in a different post.

Knowing what those words mean to you, and the things about that view that I am opposed to, I would have said the same thing more like this:

A child is born, destined to suffer because of Adam's sin that is in the world. Although he is not held accountable for Adam's sin, during the process of learning to live according to the world's ways, he will do things that are wrong from time to time. Although his behaviour might be sinful, God's judgment of sin is according to His individual expectations of us. As the child's understanding of right and wrong develops, he reaches a maturity of understanding that makes him accountable for his sin.

Agreed !

But let's remember that we're speaking of the adult person in these threads.

You don't realise that the sin nature develops as a result of the insecurity caused by the fallen world. You believe babies bring sin into the world rather than the fact that the world puts sin into the babies.

Yes, I understand now what our different understanding is.
I would ask for some scripture for what you state above....that the world puts sin into children/babies.

My question would be:
If the world puts sin into us (at an early age) then why isn't the world becoming better and better?
Why aren't we making the world better and better?

I believe it's because we are BORN with the sin nature already implanted in us. I have provided scripture. This is also why man's nature does not change even though technical and scientific breakthroughs happen all the time. Our nature remains the same.

 

[Serving Zion]

Man was made with preternatural gifts....

one of them was immortality --- this was lost. We agree.

We don't agree, actually. There is no indication that humans were created immortal. The scripture simply says that Adam and Eve were driven out of the garden of Eden, and the way to the tree of life was guarded "lest he reach out his hand and take and eat, and live forever". The tree of life had the power to give them life forever. Like having everlasting access to a resurrecting power.

You say a spirit of darkness gets into them. How? You mean satan actually oppresses them, each and every person?

I did in fact explain it to you. When they choose deceit, they choose to no longer walk in the light. That is how the thief of John 10:10 takes us as captives, through the lure of deceit. Do you not remember when you did that and were cut off from God? You must have had some conscience pleading with you "no, don't go there, you know its wrong!" but then you chose an idea to rationalise it "oh well, everybody else does it, why not me?".

The above is referring to the resurrection...

I don't read it that way, unless you want to shift the definition of resurrection into the present age (which we are warned against "that it disturbs the faith of some").

I do believe the bible teaches that we are born with it.

Can you show me those scriptures that say that? I know all the scriptures I have ever seen don't say it (except for those translations that are made in light of that doctrine and that have added their own words instead).

You want examples????!!!

Don't you know any kids??

I could give you examples but it seems so unnecessary!

I know many kids, and I know their sinful traits are learned behaviours. I can give examples of that. But I don't know any babies with sinful behaviours, and if you have examples, then I would like to analyse why their behaviour is sinful.

I would ask for some scripture for what you state above....that the world puts sin into children/babies.

"Make a tree good, its fruit will be good, make a tree rotten its fruit will be rotten". "Evil company corrupts good character". "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world", "God made man upright, but he has sought out many schemes", "do not be conformed to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind", "In sin was I conceived, and I was brought forth in inquity".

My question would be:

If the world puts sin into us (at an early age) then why isn't the world becoming better and better?

Hosea 4:6 has a very good answer to that.

Why aren't we making the world better and better?

Simply, the answer that is not palatable, is that parents are not taking responsibility for their own behaviours that cause the behavioural problems in children, and those generations come forth having been the offspring of deceit. This is the very problem with the doctrine you have: you believe parents are always right and children are always wrong because you are accustomed to believe that parents have the right to train their children up in the way they think is best and they never hear the complaint of the children because you believe the child's complaint is on account of the sin nature that they are born with.

 

[Serving Zion]

I will answer one question at a time, and then I expect you to answer my question.

Please post the scripture that pertains to any answer or statement.


Posting a scripture reference such as Ecclesiastes 7:29 isnot a scripture but simply a reference.


Answering my question by saying James 1:14 explains it, is not an answer, but is just a another scripture reference.


If you can agree to dialog in this manner and be civil without your derogatory comments and insinuations then you may have the right to demand answers.


So with that being said, you can answer my original question that you dodged earlier in the discussion, where you said...
“James 1:14-15 explains it.”

From post number 63 —


How did the sin and death that entered the world through the one man, spread to all men?




JLB

Actually, I have said enough for you already.

 

[JLB]

Actually, I have said enough for you already.

I totally agree.

 

[GodsGrace]

We don't agree, actually. There is no indication that humans were created immortal. The scripture simply says that Adam and Eve were driven out of the garden of Eden, and the way to the tree of life was guarded "lest he reach out his hand and take and eat, and live forever". The tree of life had the power to give them life forever. Like having everlasting access to a resurrecting power.

It has been my understanding, from two different churches, that the Tree of Life represented physical life and its access was prohibited to Adam and Eve after they were banished from the Garden because otherwise they would live forever in the state of sin.

Also, they had preternatural gifts...
immortality
infused knowledge
integrity

You could not agree...but this is accepted theology.

I did in fact explain it to you. When they choose deceit, they choose to no longer walk in the light. That is how the thief of John 10:10 takes us as captives, through the lure of deceit. Do you not remember when you did that and were cut off from God? You must have had some conscience pleading with you "no, don't go there, you know its wrong!" but then you chose an idea to rationalise it "oh well, everybody else does it, why not me?".

Actually SZ, you did not explain it. You say it's because the person chooses deceit above. Fine. But WHY does the person choose deceit instead of obeying God?

Can you show me those scriptures that say that? I know all the scriptures I have ever seen don't say it (except for those translations that are made in light of that doctrine and that have added their own words instead).

I believe the best scripture for this is Romans 5:12 which I have posted already.
Romans 5:12
NASB
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

Douay-Rheims
12Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

ESV
12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mene because all sinned

NEW LIVING TRANSLATION
12When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.

Adam sinned.
Sin entered into the world.
Thus, we all sin.

I know many kids, and I know their sinful traits are learned behaviours. I can give examples of that. But I don't know any babies with sinful behaviours, and if you have examples, then I would like to analyse why their behaviour is sinful.

I never spoke of babies. I spoke of children at about the age of 10 to12...sometimes even slightly younger.

I cannot agree that their traits are learned from adults.
I had one child in a class that would attack other children.
We had to get him a person to sit by him and supervise him.
He tried to stick a pencil in another boys hand one time.
He would get objects belonging to others and throw them down on the floor.
He would kick and fight.
Others would not be this bad and he is much better now....but I can assure you he didn't learn this from his parents.

"Make a tree good, its fruit will be good, make a tree rotten its fruit will be rotten". "Evil company corrupts good character". "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world", "God made man upright, but he has sought out many schemes", "do not be conformed to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind", "In sin was I conceived, and I was brought forth in inquity".

I agree...

but once again...you don't state the WHY.
The why is the sin nature of humans.
But we'll have to agree to disagree on this.
You mean through human effort (of parents) all children could conceivably be good as they become adults?
This goes back to what I was saying before...
Then why aren't we getting better and better?
Because this idea will not work...because all does not depend on parents since they also have a sin nature. (unless they are born from above).

Hosea 4:6 has a very good answer to that.

Hosea 4:6
6My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also will reject you from being My priest.
Since you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children.

?? How does the above show us why we are not becoming better?

Because God did not bless our children?
You yourself said that Jesus loves children.

Simply, the answer that is not palatable, is that parents are not taking responsibility for their own behaviours that cause the behavioural problems in children, and those generations come forth having been the offspring of deceit. This is the very problem with the doctrine you have: you believe parents are always right and children are always wrong because you are accustomed to believe that parents have the right to train their children up in the way they think is best and they never hear the complaint of the children because you believe the child's complaint is on account of the sin nature that they are born with.

Wow!
You know nothing about me or how I raised my kids or what I think about anything of what you've stated.

I won't even reply to this.
I'll just say that it's all wrong...except that I agree with the first sentence....up to the word CHILDREN.

 

[Serving Zion]

It has been my understanding, from two different churches, that the Tree of Life represented physical life and its access was prohibited to Adam and Eve after they were banished from the Garden because otherwise they would live forever in the state of sin.

You don't see that as being the same as what I just said? Maybe the difference is that I have said they would need to eat of it in order to have that life. That's what the scripture says.

Also, they had preternatural gifts...
immortality
infused knowledge
integrity

Can you show me evidence of that in scripture? .. or is it constructed extra-biblical doctrine to prop up their other theories? (as for example, the theory that babies are born with sin in their nature, as the extra-biblical idea that props-up the doctrine of being born again, because they don't understand why it exists).

You could not agree...but this is accepted theology.

Accepted by whom? .. by you? and by others whom you know? .. all those who have never thought to question that belief and ask how sin spreads from one to another? That doesn't include me, I suppose you could say. It never sat well with me to think that God would be so unjust. I had already known God too well to have become atheist, so I began questioning those assumptions and looking very carefully at what the scriptures really say, to find out what had gone wrong.

Actually SZ

Please use my proper name, because I don't want you to become comfortable being rude like that. The rules also say you need to use the @ symbol and the full username every time you reference a person by name. The system does it automatically for you when you begin typing with the @ followed by letters.

you did not explain it. You say it's because the person chooses deceit above. Fine. But WHY does the person choose deceit instead of obeying God?

Because he "is enticed by his desires and dragged out by them, giving birth to sin" (James 1:14).

Adam sinned.
Sin entered into the world.
Thus, we all sin.

I know, and I would agree if those words meant the same thing to you as they do to me. I would say, to be separated from the common false doctrine, "Thus we all do sin".

I believe the best scripture for this is Romans 5:12 which I have posted already.

Well you just can't win with that one, because it doesn't say that Adam's sin is magically in us from birth. It says specifically that the death "spreads" or "passes upon" because all sinned. In showing that it passes upon us on the basis of our sin, it says that it is because of our sin that death comes upon us. Death doesn't come upon us except on the basis that we have sinned, and sin does not happen until we are dragged out and enticed by our desires.

That's why the followers of the doctrine you have followed, keep on twisting the scripture. What you mean to say is that death came upon us because of Adam's sin. But the scripture clearly says that it is our own sin that gives the power to death. So, you construct a theory that babies are born with sin even though it is clearly observable that they are born pure and unstained by the world, because that's the only way you can make the words fit with your doctrine.

I never spoke of babies. I spoke of children at about the age of 10 to12...sometimes even slightly younger.

I would say they are well and truly defiled by the world at that age, so would you say they are not?

I cannot agree that their traits are learned from adults.
I had one child in a class that would attack other children.
We had to get him a person to sit by him and supervise him.
He tried to stick a pencil in another boys hand one time.
He would get objects belonging to others and throw them down on the floor.
He would kick and fight.
Others would not be this bad and he is much better now....but I can assure you he didn't learn this from his parents.

It is their behaviours that are learned from adults. That one you mentioned is rage. The kid wasn't born with rage. He is driven to rage because nobody does justice for him.

It is important to distinguish the sin from the expression of the sin. We can see the sin in him was an absence of love driving him to do things that love would not do. But the expression of that sin was coming forth from the intelligence: the sin had taken hold of him, literally to turn him into a slave of it, and using his brain to first imagine that he might be satisfied to drive a pencil into the boy's hand, and then figuring out how to rationalise it within him so that he would choose to follow through with that idea. At the same time, the Holy Spirit is inside of him, trying to show him why he should not do it, and ultimately he has decided that he would be more satisfied if he did.

Proverbs 22:24-25.

but once again...you don't state the WHY.
The why is the sin nature of humans.

I have stated why so many times already and you keep dismissing it. You cannot surely complain that I have not stated why we come to have sin in our nature.

You mean through human effort (of parents) all children could conceivably be good as they become adults?

Only if the parents themselves would repent of their sin and instead do true justice.

Children are always willing to forgive in order to make it work.

This goes back to what I was saying before...
Then why aren't we getting better and better?

I already told you. You do not want to hear it.

?? How does the above show us why we are not becoming better?

Because God did not bless our children?
You yourself said that Jesus loves children.

It is because the false teachers came, bringing destructive heresies (2 Peter 2:1-3). Those who believe the doctrines of the devil (aka: father of lies) make themselves fixed against the truth with the fullness of their strength to remain faithful to those teachings. They become enemies of the spirit of truth and, being held captive by the fear of bringing their salvation into question, they "refuse knowledge" (Hosea 4:6). That's why churches are dying, because they can't see the judgments of their own words coming against them while everybody else can, and what's more, is there is no clear distinction in their view between wheat and weeds because they aren't able to discern spirits. They see only "Christian" and "Christian" side by side, going to the same churches, reading the same bible. There literally is no church that practices Christianity as it is meant to be practiced according to the bible. That's why He is forgetting your children, and it is more for the sake of their mercy, that they may be saved on the day that He is revealed to them.

Wow!
You know nothing about me or how I raised my kids or what I think about anything of what you've stated.

I won't even reply to this.
I'll just say that it's all wrong...except that I agree with the first sentence....up to the word CHILDREN.

Actually, I do know enough to say what I have said, based upon what you have said. You refuse to hear the child's complaint because you assume it is sin in them that has put them in the position to complain.

 

[GodsGrace]

You don't see that as being the same as what I just said? Maybe the difference is that I have said they would need to eat of it in order to have that life. That's what the scripture says.

Adam and Eve were created to be immortal.
Then they disobeyed God by eating of one tree.
After the fall, they lost immortality and God did not want them to eat from the Tree of Life.
The point here is that they had gifts from God that were abolished when they fell.
AND...they were no longer allowed to live forever.

Can you show me evidence of that in scripture? .. or is it constructed extra-biblical doctrine to prop up their other theories? (as for example, the theory that babies are born with sin in their nature, as the extra-biblical idea that props-up the doctrine of being born again, because they don't understand why it exists).

Romans 3:9-10
9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

I really don't know how else to say this and this will be my last attempt...unless YOU could provide scripture teaching the opposite.....:

Everyone is born with the sin nature.
As Romans 3:9 says..we are all under sin.
This is because Adam,,,the representative of all mankind...sinned, and the effect of that sin has been passed down to us.
When a baby is born,,,,he has the sin nature.
He is not imputed with sin UNTIL he reaches the age of accountability.
At this time,,,he will be lost UNLESS he comes to believe in God/Jesus for his salvation.

The above is traditional Christianity.
We sin as adults BECAUSE we inherit the sin nature.
You agree that we're lost because we sin...
you say the world leads us to this...
Please provide a scripture for this.

Accepted by whom? .. by you? and by others whom you know? .. all those who have never thought to question that belief and ask how sin spreads from one to another? That doesn't include me, I suppose you could say. It never sat well with me to think that God would be so unjust. I had already known God too well to have become atheist, so I began questioning those assumptions and looking very carefully at what the scriptures really say, to find out what had gone wrong.

What went wrong?
Provide verses please.

I don't make up my own theology, BTW,,,I think I've already stated this.

Please use my proper name, because I don't want you to become comfortable being rude like that. The rules also say you need to use the @ symbol and the full username every time you reference a person by name. The system does it automatically for you when you begin typing with the @ followed by letters.

Using the @ is to tag a person when we're speaking about them so they know what we're saying about them.
I'm sorry if you feel I'm being rude by calling you SZ. I do this to all on this site....I'll remember if this bothers you. It's not meant to be rude.

Because he "is enticed by his desires and dragged out by them, giving birth to sin" (James 1:14).

Here we go again !!

WHY is man enticed by his desires?
Why doesn't he just obey God?

Are you going to say because the world makes him be like this?
WHY does the world make him be like this?
WHY is the question...not HOW.

Well you just can't win with that one, because it doesn't say that Adam's sin is magically in us from birth. It says specifically that the death "spreads" or "passes upon" because all sinned. In showing that it passes upon us on the basis of our sin, it says that it is because of our sin that death comes upon us. Death doesn't come upon us except on the basis that we have sinned, and sin does not happen until we are dragged out and enticed by our desires.

The above is fundamentally wrong.
Here's what you stated:
Well you just can't win with that one, because it doesn't say that Adam's sin is magically in us from birth. It says specifically that the death "spreads" or "passes upon" because all sinned. In showing that it passes upon us on the basis of our sin, it says that it is because of our sin that death comes upon us. Death doesn't come upon us except on the basis that we have sinned, and sin does not happen until we are dragged out and enticed by our desires.

I was referring to Romans 5:12

Let's try Romans 5:18-19
18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Note verse 18 THROUGH ONE TRANSGRESSION (Adam's Sin)
CONDEMNATION CAME TO ALL MEN.
All men are condemned because of the sin of Adam.

Note verse 19 THROUGH ONE MAN'S DISOBEDIENCE (Adam's disobedience) THE MANY (mankind) WERE MADE SINNERS.

And here you have your WHY...
We sin because we are enticed by the world BECAUSE we are all condemned because of Adam...Because of Adam we have all been MADE sinners.

That's why the followers of the doctrine you have followed, keep on twisting the scripture. What you mean to say is that death came upon us because of Adam's sin. But the scripture clearly says that it is our own sin that gives the power to death. So, you construct a theory that babies are born with sin even though it is clearly observable that they are born pure and unstained by the world, because that's the only way you can make the words fit with your doctrine.

This is your opinion.
Please provide scripture.

I would say they are well and truly defiled by the world at that age, so would you say they are not?

Sure. But we still have to answer WHY...which I did just above with Romans 5:18-19

Could you also provide scripture please.

It is their behaviours that are learned from adults. That one you mentioned is rage. The kid wasn't born with rage. He is driven to rage because nobody does justice for him.

So parents are responsible for a child's rage?
And why are parents bad parents?
And where does this rage come from?
You're missing a key element in your Christian theology and this will leave you with unanswered questions.

It is important to distinguish the sin from the expression of the sin. We can see the sin in him was an absence of love driving him to do things that love would not do. But the expression of that sin was coming forth from the intelligence: the sin had taken hold of him, literally to turn him into a slave of it, and using his brain to first imagine that he might be satisfied to drive a pencil into the boy's hand, and then figuring out how to rationalise it within him so that he would choose to follow through with that idea. At the same time, the Holy Spirit is inside of him, trying to show him why he should not do it, and ultimately he has decided that he would be more satisfied if he did.

Why did he follow the idea of sticking a pencil in a boy's hand?
Why not follow the idea the Holy Spirit gave him, if you yourself have stated the Holy Spirit was in the boy.
Is the Holy Spirit so weak that He could not stop him?

I have stated why so many times already and you keep dismissing it. You cannot surely complain that I have not stated why we come to have sin in our nature.

Yes, I dismiss what you say because you tell me HOW the evil comes to be in a person,,,,but you don't say WHY....even though I'VE stated it several times, but YOU do not accept what scripture states.

It is because the false teachers came, bringing destructive heresies (2 Peter 2:1-3). Those who believe the doctrines of the devil (aka: father of lies) make themselves fixed against the truth with the fullness of their strength to remain faithful to those teachings. They become enemies of the spirit of truth and, being held captive by the fear of bringing their salvation into question, they "refuse knowledge" (Hosea 4:6). That's why churches are dying, because they can't see the judgments of their own words coming against them while everybody else can, and what's more, is there is no clear distinction in their view between wheat and weeds because they aren't able to discern spirits. They see only "Christian" and "Christian" side by side, going to the same churches, reading the same bible. There literally is no church that practices Christianity as it is meant to be practiced according to the bible. That's why He is forgetting your children, and it is more for the sake of their mercy, that they may be saved on the day that He is revealed to them.

You may be right about churches.
So God is forgetting our children?
Where is this stated?

Actually, I do know enough to say what I have said, based upon what you have said. You refuse to hear the child's complaint because you assume it is sin in them that has put them in the position to complain.

NO. You know nothing about me or what I assume or what I know.
Please stick to the topic at hand.

 

[Serving Zion]

Adam and Eve were created to be immortal.
Then they disobeyed God by eating of one tree.
After the fall, they lost immortality and God did not want them to eat from the Tree of Life.
The point here is that they had gifts from God that were abolished when they fell.
AND...they were no longer allowed to live forever.




Romans 3:9-10
9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

I really don't know how else to say this and this will be my last attempt...unless YOU could provide scripture teaching the opposite.....:

Everyone is born with the sin nature.
As Romans 3:9 says..we are all under sin.
This is because Adam,,,the representative of all mankind...sinned, and the effect of that sin has been passed down to us.
When a baby is born,,,,he has the sin nature.
He is not imputed with sin UNTIL he reaches the age of accountability.
At this time,,,he will be lost UNLESS he comes to believe in God/Jesus for his salvation.

The above is traditional Christianity.
We sin as adults BECAUSE we inherit the sin nature.
You agree that we're lost because we sin...
you say the world leads us to this...
Please provide a scripture for this.



What went wrong?
Provide verses please.

I don't make up my own theology, BTW,,,I think I've already stated this.



Using the @ is to tag a person when we're speaking about them so they know what we're saying about them.
I'm sorry if you feel I'm being rude by calling you SZ. I do this to all on this site....I'll remember if this bothers you. It's not meant to be rude.


Here we go again !!

WHY is man enticed by his desires?
Why doesn't he just obey God?

Are you going to say because the world makes him be like this?
WHY does the world make him be like this?
WHY is the question...not HOW.




The above is fundamentally wrong.
Here's what you stated:
Well you just can't win with that one, because it doesn't say that Adam's sin is magically in us from birth. It says specifically that the death "spreads" or "passes upon" because all sinned. In showing that it passes upon us on the basis of our sin, it says that it is because of our sin that death comes upon us. Death doesn't come upon us except on the basis that we have sinned, and sin does not happen until we are dragged out and enticed by our desires.

I was referring to Romans 5:12

Let's try Romans 5:18-19
18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Note verse 18 THROUGH ONE TRANSGRESSION (Adam's Sin)
CONDEMNATION CAME TO ALL MEN.
All men are condemned because of the sin of Adam.

Note verse 19 THROUGH ONE MAN'S DISOBEDIENCE (Adam's disobedience) THE MANY (mankind) WERE MADE SINNERS.

And here you have your WHY...
We sin because we are enticed by the world BECAUSE we are all condemned because of Adam...Because of Adam we have all been MADE sinners.


This is your opinion.
Please provide scripture.




Sure. But we still have to answer WHY...which I did just above with Romans 5:18-19

Could you also provide scripture please.




So parents are responsible for a child's rage?
And why are parents bad parents?
And where does this rage come from?
You're missing a key element in your Christian theology and this will leave you with unanswered questions.


Why did he follow the idea of sticking a pencil in a boy's hand?
Why not follow the idea the Holy Spirit gave him, if you yourself have stated the Holy Spirit was in the boy.
Is the Holy Spirit so weak that He could not stop him?



Yes, I dismiss what you say because you tell me HOW the evil comes to be in a person,,,,but you don't say WHY....even though I'VE stated it several times, but YOU do not accept what scripture states.




You may be right about churches.
So God is forgetting our children?
Where is this stated?




NO. You know nothing about me or what I assume or what I know.
Please stick to the topic at hand.

You have made it clear that you will not cooperate, just as the other poster has done. You are asking me to repeat things I have already said, that indicates you have not understood what I have already said. Unless you are going to pull your own weight, then I will have to break the yoke.

What I can see is that your perspective is so bound tightly to what you have been taught, and you have no interest in understanding what I have learned. The purpose of your questions is to demonstrate to me that it doesn't make sense to you so that you can prove that I am not making sense. I cannot continue to work with you under those circumstances.

Why did he follow the idea of sticking a pencil in a boy's hand?

Because he was getting no relief from his frustration. The boy had obviously provoked him, and you had furthered the aggravation.

Why not follow the idea the Holy Spirit gave him, if you yourself have stated the Holy Spirit was in the boy.

The Holy Spirit can only use the available resources to plead His case within us. If the boy has not learned why it would be better to entrust the situation to God, how can anybody expect him to follow it?

Is the Holy Spirit so weak that He could not stop him?

Some decisions do not belong to God (consider Genesis 6:3: Adonai said "No, my spirit will not strive with man forever, for indeed he is flesh").

I am concerned that you are asking that question, because even your own doctrines would have to agree that God cannot save everybody He wants to (2 Peter 3:9).

 

[GodsGrace]

You have made it clear that you will not cooperate, just as the other poster has done. You are asking me to repeat things I have already said, that indicates you have not understood what I have already said. Unless you are going to pull your own weight, then I will have to break the yoke.

What I can see is that your perspective is so bound tightly to what you have been taught, and you have no interest in understanding what I have learned. The purpose of your questions is to demonstrate to me that it doesn't make sense to you so that you can prove that I am not making sense. I cannot continue to work with you under those circumstances.


Because he was getting no relief from his frustration. The boy had obviously provoked him, and you had furthered the aggravation.



The Holy Spirit can only use the available resources to plead His case within us. If the boy has not learned why it would be better to entrust the situation to God, how can anybody expect him to follow it?



Some decisions do not belong to God (consider Genesis 6:3: Adonai said "No, my spirit will not strive with man forever, for indeed he is flesh").

I am concerned that you are asking that question, because even your own doctrines would have to agree that God cannot save everybody He wants to (2 Peter 3:9).

God cannot save everyone He wants to.
He would want everyone to be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4

But only those who want to be saved, will be saved.
John 3:16

I understand what you are stating.
You have not provided scripture and I cannot agree...
so we'll agree to disagree.

However, once again, you've made presumptions about me that are not true. You really should not do this to anyone on this forum.

 

[Serving Zion]

You have not provided scripture

You are just not seeing it. You keep asking me the same things I have already answered.

However, once again, you've made presumptions about me that are not true. You really should not do this to anyone on this forum.

I am only saying the things that I can see.

If you can specify which presumption I have made about you that isn't true, I will explain why it has seemed true to me. It will be based on what you have said.

 

[GodsGrace]

You are just not seeing it. You keep asking me the same things I have already answered.


I am only saying the things that I can see.

If you can specify which presumption I have made about you that isn't true, I will explain why it has seemed true to me. It will be based on what you have said.

This thread is not about me or about raising children.
You do not know how I raised my children.
Difficult to understand what you "see"....

'Nuff said....

 

[Serving Zion]

I am just stating this

You do not know how I raised my children

This is another thing you do that makes it impossible for us to achieve constructive dialogue. You are "shifting the goalposts". I did not refer to the way you raised your own children, but you have said that is the thing I wrongly presumed.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am just stating this

This is another thing you do that makes it impossible for us to achieve constructive dialogue. You are "shifting the goalposts". I did not refer to the way you raised your own children, but you have said that is the thing I wrongly presumed.

You said this in post 111:

Because he was getting no relief from his frustration. The boy had obviously provoked him, and you had furthered the aggravation.

How do YOU know I furthered the aggravation?
Were you peeking through the window?

How do YOU know the other boy had provoked him?
Maybe he was just a violent kid?
Were you peeking through the window?

You were NOT THERE,,,, how do you presume to know who did what?

Again,,,,you really should stop assuming things about others.

Will see you on other threads....

 

[Serving Zion]

You said this in post 111:

Because he was getting no relief from his frustration. The boy had obviously provoked him, and you had furthered the aggravation.

How do YOU know I furthered the aggravation?
Were you peeking through the window?

How do YOU know the other boy had provoked him?
Maybe he was just a violent kid?
Were you peeking through the window?

You were NOT THERE,,,, how do you presume to know who did what?

Again,,,,you really should stop assuming things about others.

Will see you on other threads....

I really do wish I had the opportunity to explain it to you, and you are right, it does go off-topic. Still, it will be useful insight for other writings.

I see you have a particular grievance to me for having thought I could be making sense of a situation I did not see happening. My analysis is about the behaviours of the people on the facts you have provided. I don't need to have been there in order to make those observations.

 

[GodsGrace]

I really do wish I had the opportunity to explain it to you, and you are right, it does go off-topic. Still, it will be useful insight for other writings.

I see you have a particular grievance to me for having thought I could be making sense of a situation I did not see happening. My analysis is about the behaviours of the people on the facts you have provided. I don't need to have been there in order to make those observations.

I didn't supply you with the behavior of each person involved.
You wanted examples of how a child could be born with a sin nature and I provided it. That's all I did.

End of story.

 

[JLB]

The scripture says plainly...


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6


There is first a natural birth then there is a spiritual birth.


If anyone doesn’t believe this then they have a problem with Jesus Christ who spoke these words.


If a person undergoes natural birth then they are born.

If a person undergoes another birth, a spiritual one, then they are born again.




JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Each person is born with a body that contains sin, being passed on from Adam, which some refer to as a sin nature.

I not only disagree, but my theology actually lines up closer to Serving Zion

Deuteronomy 24:16
English Standard Version
“Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20
English Standard Version
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Adam was created without sin. However, he was created with the potential to sin. It's hard for some to grasp that God created Adam with the potential to sin. But God did create humanity with the potential to sin, yet humanity was created sinless.

In this same way, children are both created and born without sin. That being said, like Adam, they have the potential to sin. This is simply to say that as a child grows, they have the potential to be disobedient.

Here, David ascribes God's workmanship.

Psalm 139:14 New International Version
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.