What if Adam had not sinned ?

[stranger]

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Have you ever wondered that if Adam would not have sinned, and lived a perfect sin free life, if He would have inherited eternal life ?


If Adam [Mankind] had remained unfallen, without transgression, then He nor men in him could have entered that Kingdom of Eternal Glory to which all believers in Christ were destined before the foundation Matt 25:

34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

2 tim 4:18

And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

At best, the life we had in Adam was earthly 1 cor 15:

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So if Adam would have continued perfect in the flesh and blood he was created in, He could not inherit the kingdom of God, prepared for the sheep from the foundation, remember, at his best, Adam was still flesh and blood..

hebrews 2 :

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood [In Adam], he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

And scripture says this 1 cor 15:

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So Man at His best unfallen state in flesh and blood, cannot inherit the kingdom of God..

As Jesus said, except a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God, even Adam, in His unfallen state needed to be born again if He was to inherit the Kingdom of Glory..

Hi savedbygrace57,

The context of 'flesh and blood' cannot inherit the kingdom of God' in 1 Cor 15 assumes we have already fallen and been redeemed.

The best you can do is say that Christ died before the foundation of the world and the death of Christ on a cross presupposed the creation (in some sense), as well as a fallen humanity before it existed.

blessings brother

 

[savedbygrace57]

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Have you ever wondered that if Adam would not have sinned, and lived a perfect sin free life, if He would have inherited eternal life ?


If Adam [Mankind] had remained unfallen, without transgression, then He nor men in him could have entered that Kingdom of Eternal Glory to which all believers in Christ were destined before the foundation Matt 25:

34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

2 tim 4:18

And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

At best, the life we had in Adam was earthly 1 cor 15:

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So if Adam would have continued perfect in the flesh and blood he was created in, He could not inherit the kingdom of God, prepared for the sheep from the foundation, remember, at his best, Adam was still flesh and blood..

hebrews 2 :

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood [In Adam], he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

And scripture says this 1 cor 15:

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So Man at His best unfallen state in flesh and blood, cannot inherit the kingdom of God..

As Jesus said, except a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God, even Adam, in His unfallen state needed to be born again if He was to inherit the Kingdom of Glory..

Hi savedbygrace57,

The context of 'flesh and blood' cannot inherit the kingdom of God' in 1 Cor 15 assumes we have already fallen and been redeemed.

The best you can do is say that Christ died before the foundation of the world and the death of Christ on a cross presupposed the creation (in some sense), as well as a fallen humanity before it existed.

blessings brother

Flesh and Blood was never Gods means of entering Eternal Glory, it was through Christ. The world was made for salvation through Christ. not Adam.

Col 1:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

All things [ including man in adam] were created for Christ and His Salvation !

 

[savedbygrace57]

When Adam was created, and the world around him, it was all for a redemptive, soteriological purpose, even the Eternal Purpose of Jesus Christ eph 3:

4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

The world was created in line with the Mystery of the Gentiles !

 

[jasoncran]

then answer me this, where will saved person spend eternity? in heaven (without no physical body) or on the new earth and new heaven, with a new physical body?

 

[savedbygrace57]

then answer me this, where will saved person spend eternity? in heaven (without no physical body) or on the new earth and new heaven, with a new physical body?

You answer it, You are already rejecting all my points, so you tell me. You have not addressed anything so far I have shared with scripture, not anything.

 

[jasoncran]

then answer me this, where will saved person spend eternity? in heaven (without no physical body) or on the new earth and new heaven, with a new physical body?

You answer it, You are already rejecting all my points, so you tell me. You have not addressed anything so far I have shared with scripture, not anything.

because you claim like a good calivinist. god created people to die, and the earth for nought. when the bible says other wise.

the earth

rev 21 to 22:5
Is 65 :17 to 25

matthew 5:5
the meek shall what inherit ,what , the earth.

genesis 8:21,22

those verse on that christ before the foundation of the earth. Did you ever think that the Lord knew adam would fall and moved around that accordingly and that he planned to redeem man from that fall. He allowed adam to fall, but it wasnt his wish for him to sin, but he had to let it.

i will add the verse from peter on the Lord NOT wanting any(not just the elect only) to perish.2 peter 3:9

the above verse also deal with men having bodies though there are more on that.

 

[savedbygrace57]

then answer me this, where will saved person spend eternity? in heaven (without no physical body) or on the new earth and new heaven, with a new physical body?

You answer it, You are already rejecting all my points, so you tell me. You have not addressed anything so far I have shared with scripture, not anything.

because you claim like a good calivinist. god created people to die, and the earth for nought. when the bible says other wise.

the earth

rev 21 to 22:5
Is 65 :17 to 25

matthew 5:5
the meek shall what inherit ,what , the earth.

genesis 8:21,22

those verse on that christ before the foundation of the earth. Did you ever think that the Lord knew adam would fall and moved around that accordingly and that he planned to redeem man from that fall. He allowed adam to fall, but it wasnt his wish for him to sin, but he had to let it.

i will add the verse from peter on the Lord NOT wanting any(not just the elect only) to perish.2 peter 3:9

the above verse also deal with men having bodies though there are more on that.

You still have not addressed any of the scriptures I have provided. I dont think you can.

 

[jasoncran]

i have, you dont want to accept anything outside the calvinistic view that you have! that all means all and not only the elect.

you haven't answered me this, are you a robot? you have a will, by taking that view (yours) we dont as God makes serve him since we cant resist his grace.

God knew Adam and Eve would fail him and planned from the beggining that Jesus would come to the earth to die on the cross. He didnt make adam sin nor eve, or anyone of us. He acts on our reactions as he knows what we are going to do before we do it.

does that mean we have no freewill? no. freewill and God's sovereignity can coexist.

 

[savedbygrace57]

jason:

i have, you dont want to accept anything outside the calvinistic view that you have! that all means all and not only the elect.

No you have not, and i have not quoted calvin one time, just scripture, which you fail to address.

 

[jasoncran]

very well, but are of the calvinstic thinking and that shows.

first off, would the lord call something cursed and say its Good?
lets see in genesis, adam sins and falls and is force from the garden of eden

in revalation, the tree of life is seen again albiet for the healing of nations. note also that redeemed have what a body of flesh, hard to walk without a body.

my point is that your are saying that the prefall adam is evil and full of sin? are you not. you say that no flesh and blood will enter in to heaven.

in genesis doesnt it say that Lord talked with adam? and adam didnt faint or become weak?
notice that. if had evil or was evil from the very get go why then does the Lord talk to him openly?
in any vision of the lord in glory men faint, see daniel and revalation. and isiah.(he confessed his sin)

yet with the man adam before the fall theres none of that.

your are saying that adam was cursed since he breathed into by the Lord.. i am not. he was only cursed after the fall not before.

 

[savedbygrace57]

jason:

very well, but are of the calvinstic thinking and that shows.

Its biblical, I have not quoted calvin, but the bible.

 

[jasoncran]

you dont get that, do you?
that the lord made adam perfect and allowed him to choose life or death, adam choose death.

taking how you see it, then when the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. Did that occur prior to creation of adam or after?

 

[savedbygrace57]

you dont get that, do you?
that the lord made adam perfect and allowed him to choose life or death, adam choose death.

taking how you see it, then when the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. Did that occur prior to creation of adam or after?

Adam was Created for a redemptive/ Salvation purpose which involved Him Sinning against God..for He was created for Jesus Christ col 1:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

eph 3:

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:


Everything in the beginning was set up perfectly by God, in order to bring about and demonstrate His Eternal redemptive purpose from sin by and through Jesus Christ.

 

[jasoncran]

i can see that. but i will put it this way.

when our parents taught us all that they could, and the time can when we graduate high school and moved into adulthood. they either smothered us and protected us and we stayed immature and childish or they let us make mistakes hoping that we wouldnt make them. we did and we grew from them. Did they want us to make them, surely not!but for our sakes we had to learn those lessons. ie listening to dad even though we thought he was full of it.or we buy a clunker and learn how to purchase a car more wisely. or that woman that was bad for us, they warned us, and we didnt listen, and after that divorce or breakup we acknowledge that.

this is the way I see the Lord with adam. except that with adam all men would die if the lord hadnt planned a way out. he did with jesus. we must accept christ as saviour or die in sin.

 

[glorydaz]

i can see that. but i will put it this way.

when our parents taught us all that they could, and the time can when we graduate high school and moved into adulthood. they either smothered us and protected us and we stayed immature and childish or they let us make mistakes hoping that we wouldnt make them. we did and we grew from them. Did they want us to make them, surely not!but for our sakes we had to learn those lessons. ie listening to dad even though we thought he was full of it.or we buy a clunker and learn how to purchase a car more wisely. or that woman that was bad for us, they warned us, and we didnt listen, and after that divorce or breakup we acknowledge that.

this is the way I see the Lord with adam. except that with adam all men would die if the lord hadnt planned a way out. he did with jesus. we must accept christ as saviour or die in sin.

You're speaking of the love relationship God desired to have with man. God knew free will would lead to man's sinning, and He provided the way to cover than sin. I like your analogy...it's very fitting. Love not freely given isn't love at all. :amen

 

[savedbygrace57]

Matt 25:

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

This Kingdom was prepared for these blessed ones before Adam was created, for they were to inherit it by virtue of their election in Christ, having been made joint heirs with Him, for Christ, before the creation of the worlds [ages] was the rightful Heir of all things Heb 1:

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

eph 1:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This was in Eternity Past, before He created us in Adam. This means that the world, the universe, was founded for Mans existence to fulfill God's Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus our Lord eph 3:

11 according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

For you see, Adam was created subservient to God's Eternal Purpose in Christ, whereas False religion is building upon the foundation that the Eternal Purpose of Christ was subservient to and a back up plan to God's purpose for Adam. Yet we never read in scripture about God having a Eternal Purpose in Adam ?? If God's Eternal Purpose was in Christ Jesus, how could Adam's creation had been God's Purpose before Christ ? This is just man centered thinking in spite of what scripture says about Christ.

 

[jasoncran]

theres that calvin thing again, men are created to die. he let adam go astray, just like we can refuse him and die and enter into hell.
choice isnt over ridden the by the Lord, otherwise why even have a brain.

Did the Lord use this fall to redeem men, sure! he had to, for adam was shown to be an example to us.

if the lord calls flesh evil like you say then why is it mentioned in revalation and the reedeemed having bodies? hmm odd aint it. and we aint staying in heaven for ever.

the lord when created adam knew then what he would do, and allowed and since he allows it he moved to redeem men from the fall.

our limited minds cant grasp this as the Lord is outside time, he's in the past, present in future simulateanously.

unless you disagree.

for our point we have choices, from the lord point of view we have made the decision for him or against him and he acts on it done. but he doesnt force that or make it.otherwise that verse on love not being forceful is null and void.

 

[savedbygrace57]

jason:

theres that calvin thing again,

I have yet to quote calvin, but scripture ! You avoid scripture, not calvin.

 

[mondar]

theres that calvin thing again, men are created to die.

Jason, I am not going to say you avoid scripture, that would be to raise the emotional level a few notches. It is not good to respond to that kind of rhetoric. Hopefully I can add something here. Hopefully also lower the emotional level.

he let adam go astray,

I think without realizing what you are saying, you are talking past SBG57. He would understand this as a denial of Gods decree. The question is did God decree the fall. The concept of a decree does not mean that God participates in helping Adam sin. By the term decree no one is saying that God magicly made Adam sinful enough to choose evil. I think you should look into the concept of "decree" more fully. Here is a passage with the concept of decree in it.
ASV Acts 2:23 him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay:
The most heinous sin in history was decreed by God. Now God did not help these evil men crucify Christ, but did God want it to happen? Certainly he did! Absolutely he wanted it! God decreed this evil so that our salvation might occur (as you well know). But God did not participate in that evil. But he gave Christ into their hands. He did not have to do that! On other occasions God refused to give him into the hands of those who wanted to kill him. This time, God gave him into their hands... why? It was decreed.

Now it is true that Gods foreknowledge is also mentioned in the passage I quoted. But whatever view you have of his foreknowledge, it should not overturn the concept of decree (determinate council). God decreed the murder of Jesus. He raise evil men up to places of power and prominence, and then when the time came, he gave Jesus into their hands. God was active, but did not participate in the sin of evil men in any way.

Are you focusing on the word foreknowledge and saying that God has no decree, but is merely like a CNN news reporter and looks into the future and sees what choices men will make in the future? That is one small step away from Open Theism. If that is all God does, then is God really sovereign? I would have to differ. God is active, not in making sin happen, but in using sin for a greater glory. God does decree sin, but he does not participate in it.

just like we can refuse him and die and enter into hell.
choice isnt over ridden the by the Lord, otherwise why even have a brain.

Jason, I think you have a faulty concept what others are saying here. I dont think SBG57 or anyone else is denying that we make a choice to refuse God. In fact we freely and willfully choose to reject God. We even revel in that choice, we love that choice, and we reject God with a relish. Yes, Jason, I would agree that we are quite free to choose evil by human nature. Only God can prevent the outworking of this sinful nature through something called "regeneration." But that is another issue.

Where we might differ is in a little thing called the "fall." Are you familiar with the term "original sin?" When Adam choose evil, he chose it from a position of innocence. When we choose evil, we do it from a very different position and nature. We were already born into Adams sin and rebellion. That is the whole point of Romans 5:12ff. He is our federal head, and we inherit that rebellion and sin nature at conception. This is why we are so free to reject God. We can willfully reject him because we were in Adam, and have original sin.

Did the Lord use this fall to redeem men, sure! he had to, for adam was shown to be an example to us.

I cringe at the phrase "he had to." The sovereign Lord of the universe did not have to do anything. Except for his decree, and its outworking through covenant, he did not have to do anything. But I go to far, I think we are in danger of talking past each other. I dont think you were saying that we cornered God into saving us through the fall.

if the lord calls flesh evil like you say then why is it mentioned in revalation and the reedeemed having bodies? hmm odd aint it. and we aint staying in heaven for ever.

Sarkos, or flesh has a range of meaning. It is good to discuss the term in specific contexts here.

the lord when created adam knew then what he would do, and allowed and since he allows it he moved to redeem men from the fall.

I have spoken to some of this already. You seem to think that God is like a CNN reporter on the fall. He merely reports it and did not decree it, and even give over Adam to his tempter as he gave over Christ to evil men. I think God is more active in his decree that what you represent here. God did not have to allow Satan to enter the garden. He did not have to create Eve to be a part of the equation. Yet he prepared all so that the fall might happen. He did not participate in the temptation, but he was active. He decreed the fall.

our limited minds cant grasp this as the Lord is outside time, he's in the past, present in future simulateanously.

unless you disagree.

It is a matter of revelation. I do not say it is easy. Only two years ago I was more Arminian/semi-pelagian myself. I can understand if you say you do not grasp how it all fits together, but this does not mean no one else understands Gods sovereignty and decree. As one who is recently come to the position I hold, I can say it is a journey well worth taking. It is not an easy journey, but a worth while one.

for our point we have choices, from the lord point of view we have made the decision for him or against him and he acts on it done. but he doesnt force that or make it. otherwise that verse on love not being forceful is null and void.

I missed the verse on "love not being forceful." Also, I would say it a little different. We need no help in rejecting God. But we do need his help in choosing the path of faith in Christs penal and substitutionary atonement. For those that God has chosen (John 6:37) he will provide the help (John 6:44) that is sufficient to draw the chosen ones to him. For this drawing, he will loose none of them he has chosen (John 6:39).
ASV
37 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

Free will? We have the free will to reject God, but we need his power, regeneration, and drawing to choose the path of faith.

 

[happyjoy]

I never understood the story of Adam, Eve and the apple.

In our everyday lives most believe that it is wrong to punish babies because they are innocent, and don't know any better. For example babies don't know their crying in the middle of the night annoys its parents.

Now before they ate the apple they didn't know the difference between good and evil. They didn't even have the knowledge of good and evil. Hence the name of the apple. The knowledge of good and evil. So why would God kill them, for eating the apple, when they couldn't have known that eating the apple was wrong because, they didn't know what right and wrong were until after eating the apple?