What is The Baptism that saves us now?

[jaybo]

You get way too emotional in debates. There is no insult in my post. It seems you make these sorts of accusations as a way to avoid answering rebuttals to your posts. It is a fact that you have yet to respond to the finer points I have made and instead just respond with the same generalizations which I have rebutted.

You're joking, right? Instead of staying on-topic you resort to personal criticism. Obviously, by turning to this tactic you have lost the debate. Do you understand ad hominem?

 

[Free]

You're joking, right? Instead of staying on-topic you resort to personal criticism. Obviously, by turning to this tactic you have lost the debate. Do you understand ad hominem?

What debate? There isn’t much of a debate because you keep avoiding answering my points.

I was on topic and there was no personal attack. It’s not the first time you have erroneously said you were being personally attacked, and it seems to be happening whenever you don’t want to answer tougher rebuttals. It seems to happen far too much in these forums.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Hi everyone...and to all my fellow Christian's in Christ...
I love the passage in 1 peter 3
And I have an Ideal of what I believe..
But I want to know first your thoughts...

Don't know if anyone mentioned it but, I believe Peter is speaking of the death of the flesh. Paul mentions being "buried" with Christ in baptism. Add to this Christ being baptized in fire, putting his flesh to death and it seems likely Peter was speaking spiritually of putting the flesh to death, because that's what happened during the flood. The flesh got put to death,

that is, eight souls were saved by water. 1Pet.3:20

 

[Runmyramble]

Don't know if anyone mentioned it but, I believe Peter is speaking of the death of the flesh. Paul mentions being "buried" with Christ in baptism. Add to this Christ being baptized in fire, putting his flesh to death and it seems likely Peter was speaking spiritually of putting the flesh to death, because that's what happened during the flood. The flesh got put to death,

that is, eight souls were saved by water. 1Pet.3:20

Thanks for your reply-ill be think about it so as to reply...

 

[Runmyramble]

Don't know if anyone mentioned it but, I believe Peter is speaking of the death of the flesh. Paul mentions being "buried" with Christ in baptism. Add to this Christ being baptized in fire, putting his flesh to death and it seems likely Peter was speaking spiritually of putting the flesh to death, because that's what happened during the flood. The flesh got put to death,

that is, eight souls were saved by water. 1Pet.3:20

Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;

4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:

11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?

14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God,being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

So I believe verse 18 holds the answer...
You...are on right path for sure..

And here is a corresponding passage:
Romans 8:13

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

SO first we see .....Christ was quickened
and through that quickening Spirit He saved those through the Preached Word.

(Thinking..wonders if word can be adequate in falling on dead ears-for why did the sleep not hear/heed..they never looked to God?)

Then we see the answer of a clear conscience before God...>must be Life.

Another words the dead cannot save the dead. And here is an interesting passage in support of that: Mark 12:27
"He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."

Putting this together it make me think turning to God with the right heart is part of the beginning. Maybe equated with imputed righteousness.

But is God in you quickening, no, but His Spirit can be quickening in you. WHICH GIVES LIFE....or is eternal in quality.

So the Baptism that saves us now is Christ's quickening Spirit....

While one cannot get there without dying to the flesh....the cleansing of the Conscience is to live by the Spirit.

For it is the Spirit that gives Life the Flesh profits nothing.

How much more will we be saved by His Life. THEREFORE we see the Holyghost falls on everyone who had receive the Spirit(believed)

Scripture references: Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Amazing...Our Baptism is His Life...Confirmed by the Holy Ghost.

One thing I have to mention is...."God's" wrath...seem to be added...seems one is saved from man's wrath in that reference.

Which makes sense even in the context of 1 Perter 3....

Sounds like Your life for God's life
And to continue to have Life you must live in terms of Spirit/Life....Which is our Baptism.

Another words life breeds Life....
So Nic if you want to see the kindom you must be quickened by the Spirit.

To be born of God through the quickening word of God.

1 Timothy 3:16
"16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

So to Sum up my take on it...

The Baptism that saves us now is through God's quickening Spirit..

So...if we already died with Him
Then......you get the first part of this passage:

But if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:7-9

Interesting is recall God wants to preserve the whole body, soul, and Spirit.

So what it seems we have here is..
Getting the body in alignment with the Spirit within.

So while the heart is being transformed...it's taking time for the body to follow..Because out of habit it seems to move first.

So why does our conscience act up...because our body has not been subjected totally to the Spirit of our mind.

But I believe when they are at times in alignment we Have the Baptism that removes the guilty conscience....which is our pledge to God for a clear conscience, His quickening Eternal Spirit....

These are just my thoughts...hope I did not ramble my mouth too long...

 

[Cnkw3]

I disagree with your interpretation. Baptism into Christ is a spiritual event, done by the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is a symbol of it.

So do you think a “burial“ a “planting” a “raising” is NOT water baptism? So Paul was describing Spirit baptism in Rom 6? Really? I hope that’s not what you are saying. I would like to think that we can agree that the description in Rom 6 is what happens to a person when they are buried and raised in the waters of baptism.. Sure dont look like “Spirit baptism”

Not everyone water baptized has been baptized into Christ.

Yes i know. Look at acts 19. Look at all the people today who are baptized for an “outward sign of an inward grace that has already taken place”. Meaning they were “saved” before they entered the water. The problem is….The Bible says just the opposite so NO these people are not baptized “into Christ“. They are just baptized into some man made church like the baptist church or something else.

This is evident by the fact that Jesus said "not everyone who calls me 'Lord' shall enter into the kingdom of heaven."

This is true there will be many at the judgement who thought they were right but really they were wrong.

John concurs by saying "they went out from us to show that they were not of us." So not everyone in the church, and thus not everyone who is baptized, is actually in the kingdom of Christ. It is only those who are baptized by the Spirit into Christ, and this is Paul's meaning in Rom. 6 and Gal 3.

Paul does not even mention the word Spirit in Rom 6 and you say he is discussing Spirit baptism. Please show me ALL of the examples in the NT of people being “baptized by the Spirit”?
The only mention of Spirit in Gal 3 has to do with the miraculous and with the blessing of Abraham which we are told was given by the Spirit. Baptism in the NT is water unless the context demands another meaning.
Acts 2 water, acts 8 water twice, acts 10 water, acts 16 water, acts 18 water, acts 19 water, acts 22 water. Please show me all the examples of Spirit baptism. If it is the primary mode of baptism then it should be everywhere.

And your idea that the thief didn't require baptism because he was under a different covenant is hogwash.

really? Do you have to sacrifice animals? Why not? because you are not under the covenant that commanded it. Hogwash huh?

Everyone under the old covenant was commanded to be baptized.

If you mean “old covenant” as jews only then I would agree but if you mean “everyone” as just anybody then….WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT? Verses please!!!!!

Jesus commanded them to be baptized and believe the gospel.

Commanded who? Everyone? No! The message of Jesus and John the Baptist was ONLY for the JEWS.
Mat 10:5,6. These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
This message was forbidden to the gentiles.

Therefore, the only covenant that ever existed wherein people have eternal life is the covenant of GRACE which existed from the beginning of creation, as Jonah testifies "whoever worships idols forfeit the GRACE that could be theirs." Furthermore, Peter said to the jailer "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" - he did NOT say "believe and be baptized." So in this case, your idea appears to be grasping at straws.

Hahah. The jailor! The jailor was a gentile and new nothing of Jesus. Why don’t you read past acts 16:31. Why does everybody stop at that one verse? Lets look and see if he “accepted jesus“ like the thief?

vs 32. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
What? They had to preach to the man! Why? to tell him who jesus was and what he needed to do to be saved. Did Jesus preach to the thief?

Vs 33. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway
The man, after hearing the gospel preached, repented and then IMMEDIATELY, in the middle of the night, was baptized in water. Did the thief do this? Why do this? What did jesus command? Go preach the gospel, he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. Mk 16:16. Paul is just doing what Jesus had commanded. Its a shame you wont do the same. Did the thief EVER hear the great commission? No.

Vs 34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.
When does he rejoice? Before or after baptism? When does the text call him a believer? Before or after baptism?
Oh yea…but all he had to was believe in a Lord he had no knowledge of. Yes! Great doctrine you teach there. None of this above looks anything like the thief on the cross. Why? Because he lived under a different covenant.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;

4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:

11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?

14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God,being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

So I believe verse 18 holds the answer...
You...are on right path for sure..

And here is a corresponding passage:
Romans 8:13

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

SO first we see .....Christ was quickened
and through that quickening Spirit He saved those through the Preached Word.

(Thinking..wonders if word can be adequate in falling on dead ears-for why did the sleep not hear/heed..they never looked to God?)

Then we see the answer of a clear conscience before God...>must be Life.

Another words the dead cannot save the dead. And here is an interesting passage in support of that: Mark 12:27
"He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."

Putting this together it make me think turning to God with the right heart is part of the beginning. Maybe equated with imputed righteousness.

But is God in you quickening, no, but His Spirit can be quickening in you. WHICH GIVES LIFE....or is eternal in quality.

So the Baptism that saves us now is Christ's quickening Spirit....

While one cannot get there without dying to the flesh....the cleansing of the Conscience is to live by the Spirit.

For it is the Spirit that gives Life the Flesh profits nothing.

How much more will we be saved by His Life. THEREFORE we see the Holyghost falls on everyone who had receive the Spirit(believed)

Scripture references: Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Amazing...Our Baptism is His Life...Confirmed by the Holy Ghost.

One thing I have to mention is...."God's" wrath...seem to be added...seems one is saved from man's wrath in that reference.

Which makes sense even in the context of 1 Perter 3....

Sounds like Your life for God's life
And to continue to have Life you must live in terms of Spirit/Life....Which is our Baptism.

Another words life breeds Life....
So Nic if you want to see the kindom you must be quickened by the Spirit.

To be born of God through the quickening word of God.

1 Timothy 3:16
"16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

So to Sum up my take on it...

The Baptism that saves us now is through God's quickening Spirit..

So...if we already died with Him
Then......you get the first part of this passage:

But if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:7-9

Interesting is recall God wants to preserve the whole body, soul, and Spirit.

So what it seems we have here is..
Getting the body in alignment with the Spirit within.

So while the heart is being transformed...it's taking time for the body to follow..Because out of habit it seems to move first.

So why does our conscience act up...because our body has not been subjected totally to the Spirit of our mind.

But I believe when they are at times in alignment we Have the Baptism that removes the guilty conscience....which is our pledge to God for a clear conscience, His quickening Eternal Spirit....

These are just my thoughts...hope I did not ramble my mouth too long...

Of course being raised from death is the end of the baptism. The practice of water baptism is symbolic of being buried, the death of the flesh.

 

[tdidymas]

So do you think a “burial“ a “planting” a “raising” is NOT water baptism? So Paul was describing Spirit baptism in Rom 6? Really? I hope that’s not what you are saying. I would like to think that we can agree that the description in Rom 6 is what happens to a person when they are buried and raised in the waters of baptism.. Sure dont look like “Spirit baptism”

Yes i know. Look at acts 19. Look at all the people today who are baptized for an “outward sign of an inward grace that has already taken place”. Meaning they were “saved” before they entered the water. The problem is….The Bible says just the opposite so NO these people are not baptized “into Christ“. They are just baptized into some man made church like the baptist church or something else.

This is true there will be many at the judgement who thought they were right but really they were wrong.

Paul does not even mention the word Spirit in Rom 6 and you say he is discussing Spirit baptism. Please show me ALL of the examples in the NT of people being “baptized by the Spirit”?
The only mention of Spirit in Gal 3 has to do with the miraculous and with the blessing of Abraham which we are told was given by the Spirit. Baptism in the NT is water unless the context demands another meaning.
Acts 2 water, acts 8 water twice, acts 10 water, acts 16 water, acts 18 water, acts 19 water, acts 22 water. Please show me all the examples of Spirit baptism. If it is the primary mode of baptism then it should be everywhere.

really? Do you have to sacrifice animals? Why not? because you are not under the covenant that commanded it. Hogwash huh?

If you mean “old covenant” as jews only then I would agree but if you mean “everyone” as just anybody then….WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT? Verses please!!!!!

Commanded who? Everyone? No! The message of Jesus and John the Baptist was ONLY for the JEWS.
Mat 10:5,6. These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
This message was forbidden to the gentiles.

Hahah. The jailor! The jailor was a gentile and new nothing of Jesus. Why don’t you read past acts 16:31. Why does everybody stop at that one verse? Lets look and see if he “accepted jesus“ like the thief?

vs 32. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
What? They had to preach to the man! Why? to tell him who jesus was and what he needed to do to be saved. Did Jesus preach to the thief?

Vs 33. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway
The man, after hearing the gospel preached, repented and then IMMEDIATELY, in the middle of the night, was baptized in water. Did the thief do this? Why do this? What did jesus command? Go preach the gospel, he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. Mk 16:16. Paul is just doing what Jesus had commanded. Its a shame you wont do the same. Did the thief EVER hear the great commission? No.

Vs 34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.
When does he rejoice? Before or after baptism? When does the text call him a believer? Before or after baptism?
Oh yea…but all he had to was believe in a Lord he had no knowledge of. Yes! Great doctrine you teach there. None of this above looks anything like the thief on the cross. Why? Because he lived under a different covenant.

To answer your question, Paul in Rom. 6 is using water baptism as a backdrop for what he is explaining spiritually. IOW, water baptism is used figuratively for what literally happens spiritually. So Paul is using water baptism as a symbol for what God does literally in the spirit realm. It's the same for Eph. 2:5. This is the way I read it, because it well fits into the wider context of the whole of scripture.

But water baptism is a work of men, and since it is a "commandment" it is a work of the law. And to claim that it is a necessary precedent to salvation, it imposes the formula "salvation = faith plus works" which is a heretical idea.

 

[Runmyramble]

Of course being raised from death is the end of the baptism. The practice of water baptism is symbolic of being buried, the death of the flesh.

The way I see it is the Baptism, besides for what I already said, is not in His death...but His Life...

We are saved by His Life....
So the Baptism is being immersed in God's presence..

That's how I see it..
Putting in mind we have already been reconciled by His death.....

Life..

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The way I see it is the Baptism, besides for what I already said, is not in His death...but His Life...

We are saved by His Life....
So the Baptism is being immersed in God's presence..

That's how I see it..
Putting in mind we have already been reconciled by His death.....

Life..

I fully agree with you. Water is figurative of the Holy Spirit and Jesus sure does immerse believers with his presence.

 

[Cnkw3]

To answer your question, Paul in Rom. 6 is using water baptism as a backdrop for what he is explaining spiritually.

Ahhh. At least you“ll admit that Paul is describing water baptism. And what does he say this water baptism does for you???? You are “raised to walk in newness of life”! Why is that? Is it because it is the act of water baptism that washes your sins away? You have a new life (born again) because you are no longer stained by sin. You are white as snow and should have no more guilt but now have a new life of hope. And its this baptism that he states at the very beginning as the “baptism into Christ”. This proves that the “baptism into Christ” in Gal 3 is the exact same thing. Water baptism. Paul is not the author of confusion.

IOW, water baptism is used figuratively for what literally happens spiritually.

Where does Paul EVER say that? He is not using figurative words in Rom 6. He is describing a literal process and tying it to the death burial and resurrection of Jesus. A person is literally buried in water. A person is literally raised up out of the water. A person at that moment is literally sin free when raised.

So Paul is using water baptism as a symbol for what God does literally in the spirit realm. It's the same for Eph. 2:5. This is the way I read it, because it well fits into the wider context of the whole of scripture.

NO! This is Eph 2:5.
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
If you are dead in sins; at what point does Paul explain that a person becomes alive (quickened) again?
When they are “raised to walk in newness of life”!
When does this happen according to Paul? When being raised up out of the water they were just buried in.
Another point Paul explains in this little verse….
When is a person “saved by grace”? When they believe only? NO! When they are quickened or made alive again. At what point does this happen? In water baptism. Rom 6:2-5. Col 2:11-13

But water baptism is a work of men,

You just made that up. You should be ashamed. Where does the Bible EVER SAY THAT? It was God that came up with water baptism. It was God that commanded that a persons sins would be removed in water baptism. It was God that said.….salvation would happen AFTER baptism. Mk 16:16
When you read and study and quit listening to all these terrible PhD preachers youll see that the Bible describes baptism as a work of God not men.
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
This is a parallel passage to Rom 6 and who does Paul say is doing the work? God! In baptism we are to have faith in what? “THE OPERATION OF GOD”! Who is doing the work? Who is doing the operating? It ain’t man. Its God. Man is passive in baptism. You stand there and let someone bury you and pull you out of water. You do nothing. God commanded it and God is the one doing the work. Therefore it is a “work” of God and not man.

and since it is a "commandment" it is a work of the law. And to claim that it is a necessary precedent to salvation, it imposes the formula "salvation = faith plus works" which is a heretical idea.

 

[tdidymas]

Ahhh. At least you“ll admit that Paul is describing water baptism. And what does he say this water baptism does for you???? You are “raised to walk in newness of life”! Why is that? Is it because it is the act of water baptism that washes your sins away? You have a new life (born again) because you are no longer stained by sin. You are white as snow and should have no more guilt but now have a new life of hope. And its this baptism that he states at the very beginning as the “baptism into Christ”. This proves that the “baptism into Christ” in Gal 3 is the exact same thing. Water baptism. Paul is not the author of confusion.

Where does Paul EVER say that? He is not using figurative words in Rom 6. He is describing a literal process and tying it to the death burial and resurrection of Jesus. A person is literally buried in water. A person is literally raised up out of the water. A person at that moment is literally sin free when raised.

NO! This is Eph 2:5.
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
If you are dead in sins; at what point does Paul explain that a person becomes alive (quickened) again?
When they are “raised to walk in newness of life”!
When does this happen according to Paul? When being raised up out of the water they were just buried in.
Another point Paul explains in this little verse….
When is a person “saved by grace”? When they believe only? NO! When they are quickened or made alive again. At what point does this happen? In water baptism. Rom 6:2-5. Col 2:11-13

You just made that up. You should be ashamed. Where does the Bible EVER SAY THAT? It was God that came up with water baptism. It was God that commanded that a persons sins would be removed in water baptism. It was God that said.….salvation would happen AFTER baptism. Mk 16:16
When you read and study and quit listening to all these terrible PhD preachers youll see that the Bible describes baptism as a work of God not men.
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
This is a parallel passage to Rom 6 and who does Paul say is doing the work? God! In baptism we are to have faith in what? “THE OPERATION OF GOD”! Who is doing the work? Who is doing the operating? It ain’t man. Its God. Man is passive in baptism. You stand there and let someone bury you and pull you out of water. You do nothing. God commanded it and God is the one doing the work. Therefore it is a “work” of God and not man.

Why didn't you respond to my final statement? Is it because you know it to be true?

Your arguments are invalid, because your definition of the term "literal" is limited to a physical reality, and excludes the spiritual reality. I already said that Paul's argument in Rom. 6 is literal, but it is a spiritual reality he is describing. Why can't you see that? Such teaching is all over the pages of the NT. The physical event is often used as a symbol for what God does in the spiritual realm. It is a way of helping people to understand the work of God by seeing the unseen.

And no, natural water baptism and spiritual baptism are not the same thing. Water baptism is done by men, but spiritual baptism is done by God. And God is the initiator, not men.

And no, I did not make up what I said, and I'm certainly not ashamed of it. Water baptism is a work of law, just as following the 10 Commandments is a work of law. "By the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight." The reason is that when people rely on obedience to commands to be saved, they are trusting in themselves and their own works in order to gain favor with God. In regard to salvation, Eph. 1-2 is clear that salvation does not come on the basis of any works a person does, and this includes water baptism.

But the fact that you said "It was God that came up with water baptism" reveals that you're looking for the worst possible interpretation of what I said, which turns out not to be true. Of course God came up with water baptism, just as He came up with the 10 Commandments, the OT, the NT, and all that is in the scripture. But what you apparently fail to understand is that my meaning references actions that are done by men in the natural realm. If you have questions about what I said, ask it, rather than jumping to false conclusions.

But if you claim that water baptism is the cause of a person being saved, then why not obedience to the 10 Commandments? Why not circumcision? Why not following the laws and customs of the Jews? It's the same idea, which also leads other certain denominations to make similar claims, such as worshiping on the Sabbath, praying the sinner's prayer, joining a certain church, etc. ad infinitum. It's still the formula "salvation results from faith plus works" and is still heresy. Paul goes to great lengths in Gal. and other places to teach justification (thus, salvation) by faith alone. So it's not by faith plus baptism.

I realize that some denominations teach a doctrine of baptismal regeneration, which is what you seem to be conveying here, but I disagree with that idea because of the preponderance of evidence in scripture. Anyone can prooftext their agenda by pet verses of scripture while disregarding other scriptures that teach contrary to their agenda. It's done quite often, and is the main reason for many denominations.

But the Bible is consistent, if our minds are open to accept what it says in its entirety. But if we are bound and determined to make it say what we think, then it becomes inconsistent and problematic to us. It becomes arguing with people, pitting scripture against scripture. I can tolerate this behavior for awhile, but if it continues, I may abandon the conversation and let the other person fall down their rabbit hole.

 

[Cnkw3]

Why didn't you respond to my final statement? Is it because you know it to be true?

No i overlooked it but your explanation is your own opinion. It was God that tied baptism to the removal of sins. It wasn’t me. I’ll ask. Did God say that one must be baptized in order for their sins to be remitted? Yes or No?

 

[Cnkw3]

Why didn't you respond to my final statement? Is it because you know it to be true?

Your arguments are invalid, because your definition of the term "literal" is limited to a physical reality, and excludes the spiritual reality. I already said that Paul's argument in Rom. 6 is literal, but it is a spiritual reality he is describing. Why can't you see that?

Fine. But the point is still the same. The literal water baptism MUST take place in order to get the “spiritual reality”. There is no “spiritual reality” apart from water baptism. Why cant you see that? You are trying to say that we dont need water baptism that one is saved by the Spirit but that is not what the Bible teaches and it is definitely not in any of the examples of conversion God gave us..

Such teaching is all over the pages of the NT. The physical event is often used as a symbol for what God does in the spiritual realm. It is a way of helping people to understand the work of God by seeing the unseen.

Examples please for me to look at.

And no, natural water baptism and spiritual baptism are not the same thing.

That is correct..

Water baptism is done by men, but spiritual baptism is done by God. And God is the initiator, not men.

That is correct as seen by the examples in acts 2 and acts 10. Those individuals were baptized with the Spirit and man had nothing to do with it. There are no more examples of Spirit baptism though. How did these people know that Spirit baptism had taken place? Because of the miraculous manifestation that accompanied it. This does not happen today. You can claim it all you want but I have come across NOBODY that has ever demonstrated anything.

And no, I did not make up what I said, and I'm certainly not ashamed of it. Water baptism is a work of law,

Whose law? Gods or mans?
You are now teaching that “law” is not to be obeyed? That God cares nothing for “law” and I am assuming by law you mean…Gods commandments?

just as following the 10 Commandments is a work of law. "By the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight."

This context is referring to the OT law. Just read 19-21 He is not talking about obedience to any law. Don’t take things out of there context and make up your own religion.

The reason is that when people rely on obedience to commands to be saved, they are trusting in themselves and their own works in order to gain favor with God. In regard to salvation, Eph. 1-2 is clear that salvation does not come on the basis of any works a person does, and this includes water baptism.

You just made every bit that up. It is specifically said that…..Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all that OBEY him.
Lets follow your reasoning….Since we are not to obey any commands for salvation that would include the command to believe on jesus, so if we continue in your doctrine then no one has to believe in Jesus in order to be saved since that would be obedience to a law that God gave and according to you there is NO LAW that can save.

But the fact that you said "It was God that came up with water baptism" reveals that you're looking for the worst possible interpretation of what I said, which turns out not to be true. Of course God came up with water baptism, just as He came up with the 10 Commandments, the OT, the NT, and all that is in the scripture. But what you apparently fail to understand is that my meaning references actions that are done by men in the natural realm. If you have questions about what I said, ask it, rather than jumping to false conclusions.

Did the nation of Israel have to obey the 10 commandments to be pleasing to God? Could they violate the sabbath, for example, and still be pleasing to God? According to what you are teaching, obedience is not necessary for one to be pleasing to God.

But if you claim that water baptism is the cause of a person being saved, then why not obedience to the 10 Commandments?

We are not under the ten commandments toady. But I‘ll play along. Can I murder someone and be pleasing to God?

Why not circumcision?

We are not under the old law given to the nation of Israel today. That is why I dont have to be circumcised.

 

[Cnkw3]

Why not following the laws and customs of the Jews?

Im not a Jew. This exercise is pointless. I would think you would know the answers to these questions.

It's the same idea, which also leads other certain denominations to make similar claims, such as worshiping on the Sabbath, praying the sinner's prayer, joining a certain church, etc. ad infinitum.

None of that is given to us under the new covenant so…No we are not to do these things in order to be pleasing to God.

It's still the formula "salvation results from faith plus works" and is still heresy.

Ja 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James didnt think so. Just because you make up your own doctrine.

Paul goes to great lengths in Gal. and other places to teach justification (thus, salvation) by faith alone. So it's not by faith plus baptism.

This is baloney!!!! Show me ONE verse where Paul teaches salvation by “faith ALONE” and I will leave this board FOREVER and be gone.
So, Paul was baptized in order to “wash his sins away” but we dont have to be? Nice teaching!
just when are our sins removed? Book chapter and verse please.

I realize that some denominations teach a doctrine of baptismal regeneration, which is what you seem to be conveying here, but I disagree with that idea because of the preponderance of evidence in scripture. Anyone can prooftext their agenda by pet verses of scripture while disregarding other scriptures that teach contrary to their agenda. It's done quite often, and is the main reason for many denominations.

I dont believe in “baptismal regeneration”. This means that the power is in the water but NO the Bible clearly teaches that the power is in the blood. Rev 1:5
But the million dollar question is????? At what point does a person come in contact with the blood that saves? It doesn’t just happen.

But the Bible is consistent, if our minds are open to accept what it says in its entirety.

Yes. And nowhere does the Bible say that we are saved by faith ”alone”. We are saved by faith but not by faith alone.

But if we are bound and determined to make it say what we think, then it becomes inconsistent and problematic to us.

Yes. and I‘ll be looking for all those verses where God says we are saved by faith alone, not by faith but by faith alone. Rom 10:17 Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. We are saved by faith when we do what God says, And he never said….all you have to do is believe on me with no other conditions. Acts 2:38 destroys your faith only doctrine, but I have a feeling you dont care.

It becomes arguing with people, pitting scripture against scripture. I can tolerate this behavior for awhile, but if it continues, I may abandon the conversation and let the other person fall down their rabbit hole.

The Bible answers all questions. I dont need your opinion. If you cant show me in book chapter and verse you are wasting my time and should move on.

 

[tdidymas]

No i overlooked it but your explanation is your own opinion. It was God that tied baptism to the removal of sins. It wasn’t me. I’ll ask. Did God say that one must be baptized in order for their sins to be remitted? Yes or No?

Something that makes your argument invalid is that it lacks the distinction between a purpose of something and the process by which that something is obtained. "For the remission of sin" (or "for the forgiveness of sins") is a statement of the purpose of water baptism. It doesn't mean baptism is required before remission/forgiveness is obtained. The people spoken to were Jews who had need to renounce the pharisaical system and embrace the system espoused by Jesus and the apostles. Therefore, in order to be accepted into the church that Christ was building, they needed to prove that they had embraced it by being baptized as Peter commanded. Then the apostles could accept them into the church body, as it states that 3000 were added that day.

This doesn't negate the fact that water baptism is a work that people do, and works of humans do not cause God to save anyone. On the contrary, God is the first cause of the new creation, as He was of the old. Therefore, baptism is the response of someone who has already been converted by God to believe the gospel. This is well-exampled in Acts by Cornelius and the Ethiopian Eunuch.

So this is a prime example how you take one verse of scripture to support your cause, and yet disregard the preponderance of evidence in the whole of the NT.

 

[tdidymas]

Fine. But the point is still the same. The literal water baptism MUST take place in order to get the “spiritual reality”. There is no “spiritual reality” apart from water baptism. Why cant you see that? You are trying to say that we dont need water baptism that one is saved by the Spirit but that is not what the Bible teaches and it is definitely not in any of the examples of conversion God gave us..

Examples please for me to look at.

2Co 4:18, Heb 8:5, Heb 11:19, Eph 5:14, 1Co 2:13 are just a few examples of how physical things are used to convey spiritual meaning. In addition, doesn't the Grk term "pneuma" tell us the same? The natural meaning is "breath," so it is not the lexical definition of the term, but the context on how it is used that determines its meaning. It is the context of how that word is used to convey the meaning "spirit." So it is with the usage of terms like "baptism."

That is correct..

That is correct as seen by the examples in acts 2 and acts 10. Those individuals were baptized with the Spirit and man had nothing to do with it. There are no more examples of Spirit baptism though. How did these people know that Spirit baptism had taken place? Because of the miraculous manifestation that accompanied it. This does not happen today. You can claim it all you want but I have come across NOBODY that has ever demonstrated anything.

Whose law? Gods or mans?
You are now teaching that “law” is not to be obeyed? That God cares nothing for “law” and I am assuming by law you mean…Gods commandments?

This context is referring to the OT law. Just read 19-21 He is not talking about obedience to any law. Don’t take things out of there context and make up your own religion.

Again, it seems like you just want to argue, and so I'm close to leaving you in your rabbit hole. It seems to me you need a lot more study of Paul's teachings to see that obedience to any commands, including God's, will not save anyone.

You just made every bit that up. It is specifically said that…..Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all that OBEY him.

It's a statement about WHO has been saved, NOT HOW. The ones WHO obey Christ are those saved. But you are obviously confusing the WHO with the HOW. Again, the salvation = faith plus works formula is heresy.

Lets follow your reasoning….Since we are not to obey any commands for salvation that would include the command to believe on jesus, so if we continue in your doctrine then no one has to believe in Jesus in order to be saved since that would be obedience to a law that God gave and according to you there is NO LAW that can save.

Yet more confusion of who with how.

Did the nation of Israel have to obey the 10 commandments to be pleasing to God? Could they violate the sabbath, for example, and still be pleasing to God? According to what you are teaching, obedience is not necessary for one to be pleasing to God.

We are not under the ten commandments toady. But I‘ll play along. Can I murder someone and be pleasing to God?

We are not under the old law given to the nation of Israel today. That is why I dont have to be circumcised.

You're confusing "pleasing God" with salvation. There is a cart and a horse, but it seems you don't know the difference.

 

[tdidymas]

Im not a Jew. This exercise is pointless. I would think you would know the answers to these questions.

None of that is given to us under the new covenant so…No we are not to do these things in order to be pleasing to God.

Ja 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James didnt think so. Just because you make up your own doctrine.

This is baloney!!!! Show me ONE verse where Paul teaches salvation by “faith ALONE” and I will leave this board FOREVER and be gone.
So, Paul was baptized in order to “wash his sins away” but we dont have to be? Nice teaching!
just when are our sins removed? Book chapter and verse please.

I dont believe in “baptismal regeneration”. This means that the power is in the water but NO the Bible clearly teaches that the power is in the blood. Rev 1:5
But the million dollar question is????? At what point does a person come in contact with the blood that saves? It doesn’t just happen.

Yes. And nowhere does the Bible say that we are saved by faith ”alone”. We are saved by faith but not by faith alone.

Yes. and I‘ll be looking for all those verses where God says we are saved by faith alone, not by faith but by faith alone. Rom 10:17 Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. We are saved by faith when we do what God says, And he never said….all you have to do is believe on me with no other conditions. Acts 2:38 destroys your faith only doctrine, but I have a feeling you dont care.

The Bible answers all questions. I dont need your opinion. If you cant show me in book chapter and verse you are wasting my time and should move on.

It seems to me we're not reading the same Bible, if this last statement is what you stand on. I think we can agree to disagree.

 

[jaybo]

Something that makes your argument invalid is that it lacks the distinction between a purpose of something and the process by which that something is obtained. "For the remission of sin" (or "for the forgiveness of sins") is a statement of the purpose of water baptism. It doesn't mean baptism is required before remission/forgiveness is obtained. The people spoken to were Jews who had need to renounce the pharisaical system and embrace the system espoused by Jesus and the apostles. Therefore, in order to be accepted into the church that Christ was building, they needed to prove that they had embraced it by being baptized as Peter commanded. Then the apostles could accept them into the church body, as it states that 3000 were added that day.

This doesn't negate the fact that water baptism is a work that people do, and works of humans do not cause God to save anyone. On the contrary, God is the first cause of the new creation, as He was of the old. Therefore, baptism is the response of someone who has already been converted by God to believe the gospel. This is well-exampled in Acts by Cornelius and the Ethiopian Eunuch.

So this is a prime example how you take one verse of scripture to support your cause, and yet disregard the preponderance of evidence in the whole of the NT.

Great post! Thanks!

 

[n2thelight]

Everyone has their opinions. You made a statement that read in part "so many understand". You didn't qualify it as your opinion. Your statement is a judgement on the Body of Christ.

I judge no man , and I stand by what I said . Do you need me to put it another way, cool .I've been on a lot of Christian forums throughout the years ,and in my experience on being on said forums ,people don't understand .

Take that anyway you want