What is The Baptism that saves us now?

[for_his_glory]

But Jesus did baptise with water.
John 3:22-23
After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized. John also was baptizing at Ae′non near Salim, because there was much water there; and people came and were baptized.
John 3:26
And they came to John, and said to him, “Rabbi, he who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you bore witness, here he is, baptizing, and all are going to him.”

I can not draw a strong conclusion with vs. 22 and always pondered that verse. If Jesus went about baptizing others in water He would not have had enough time to teach the word of God and it would have not been the baptism of the Holy Spirit because Jesus had not yet ascended up to the Father.

According to John 3:5-7,16; Romans 10:9-10 and Ephesians 2:8 our Spiritual rebirth is by God's grace and His gift of Christ Jesus that by faith after hearing the word of God, Acts 2:14-41 we then first believed and are then made righteous by God's righteousness that creates within us a new Spiritual inner man as our sins have been forgiven.

Let me ask you this question. What about those who are incapacitated that can not be immersed in water, does that mean they have not received Christ Jesus nor the indwelling of the Holy Spirit after confessing Jesus as their Lord and Savior?

 

[jaybo]

I can not draw a strong conclusion with vs. 22 and always pondered that verse. If Jesus went about baptizing others in water He would not have had enough time to teach the word of God and it would have not been the baptism of the Holy Spirit because Jesus had not yet ascended up to the Father.

According to John 3:5-7,16; Romans 10:9-10 and Ephesians 2:8 our Spiritual rebirth is by God's grace and His gift of Christ Jesus that by faith after hearing the word of God, Acts 2:14-41 we then first believed and are then made righteous by God's righteousness that creates within us a new Spiritual inner man as our sins have been forgiven.

Let me ask you this question. What about those who are incapacitated that can not be immersed in water, does that mean they have not received Christ Jesus nor the indwelling of the Holy Spirit after confessing Jesus as their Lord and Savior?

Excellent post! I especially like the last paragraph. Some people simply cannot accept the baptism is a ritual signifying burial of the old, sinful man/woman and the rebirth as a new creation in Christ. If water baptism saved anyone, then belief in Jesus Christ as Savior is unnecessary.

 

[Mungo]

The Jerusalem Bible
1 John 5:6 Jesus Christ who came by water and blood, not with water only, but with water and blood with the Spirit as another witness since the Spirit is truth 7 so that there are three witnesses, 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood and all three of them agree

KJV
1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Literal water has nothing to do with salvation as Jesus came by the foretold word of the Prophets, sent by the Father, and signified by the Holy Spirit that lighted upon Him during John's water baptism for the remission of sins, Matthew 3:11-17. Three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, the water (word) and the blood. Three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost.

The more I think about "born again" Nicodemus had no understanding as even many today would ask the same question "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

Jesus goes on to tell him "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Paul understood it was not by water baptism (BTW baptism is not mentioned in John 3:5), but by the word of God that we are sanctified, which means set apart and made holy. We being the church of God have been made clean by His word as we are washed in the blood of the Lamb.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Again Paul and also Peter gives us the understanding that being born again/born from above is not by actual water which would be a work of our own righteousness, but regeneration (new Spiritual life) that comes by God's mercy through His spoken word and Spirit (Holy Spirit).

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Per the conversation Nicodemus and Jesus were discussing in John 3:9, 10 here are a few more OT verses that parallel being born again that Nicodemus should have known, but probably not emphasized as much since Jesus had to explain it to him.

1 Samuel 10:6 And the spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Job 25: 4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: 20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

There are around 1526 instances of living water in the Bible. Here are some verses on living water being the word. John 4:4-26; 7:37-39; 12:44-50; Ephesians 5:26; 1 John 5:5-8; Jeremiah 17:13; Zechariah 14:8, 9; Rev 21:6-8; Ezekiel 47:22

My first comment is that you replied to one of my posts but don't seem to have attempted to answer the points I made.

Secondly what is your 1John 5:6 point?

 

[Mungo]

I can not draw a strong conclusion with vs. 22 and always pondered that verse. If Jesus went about baptizing others in water He would not have had enough time to teach the word of God and it would have not been the baptism of the Holy Spirit because Jesus had not yet ascended up to the Father.

But what, if as I suggested to jaybo, Jesus initially baptised to teach and demonstrate to his disciples how to baptise. Moreover there is no suggestion that Jesus went around baptising after the incidents in John 3.

According to John 3:5-7,16; Romans 10:9-10 and Ephesians 2:8 our Spiritual rebirth is by God's grace and His gift of Christ Jesus that by faith after hearing the word of God, Acts 2:14-41 we then first believed and are then made righteous by God's righteousness that creates within us a new Spiritual inner man as our sins have been forgiven.

Yes, our rebirth, renewal is by God's grace. It cannot be any other way. But that happens in baptism. I went through Acts 2:14-24 in post #54. I'll not repeat it here.

Let me ask you this question. What about those who are incapacitated that can not be immersed in water, does that mean they have not received Christ Jesus nor the indwelling of the Holy Spirit after confessing Jesus as their Lord and Savior?

We do not normally immerse in water so that does not arise.
The Didache (also known as The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles) is a 1st century document. It says about the actual baptismal process:
"After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days" (Didache 7:1 [ca. A.D. 70]).

 

[Consecrated Life]

It is when we are baptised with water that our spiritual rebirth happens.

With our salvation through water rebirth dependent on another human administering it, what if this other human we are betting our salvation on is discovered at a later date to be a serial child molester ?
What then is the spiritual estate of one after having been Baptismally hoodwinked by an animal who is bound for the lowest corner of hell themselves ?
A valid question given the multiple prison sentences & multi-million dollar judgements awarded because of the vile evil nature of just such religious imposters, of many denominations, who have proffered themselves as blessed by God in administering the vital , eternal life certifying touch of Baptism to 1000's of others ?
Does the person Baptismally touched by the same hands that regularly touched children in a most filthy & vile manner then need to be rewashed ?
Why not ?


Mat 18:6
"But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

 

[Mungo]

With our salvation through water rebirth dependent on another human administering it, what if this other human we are betting our salvation on is discovered at a later date to be a serial child molester ?
What then is the spiritual estate of one after having been Baptismally hoodwinked by an animal who is bound for the lowest corner of hell themselves ?
A valid question given the multiple prison sentences & multi-million dollar judgements awarded because of the vile evil nature of just such religious imposters, of many denominations, who have proffered themselves as blessed by God in administering the vital , eternal life certifying touch of Baptism to 1000's of others ?
Does the person Baptismally touched by the same hands that regularly touched children in a most filthy & vile manner then need to be rewashed ?
Why not ?


Mat 18:6
"But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved". He made no moral qualification regarding the person administering the baptism

 

[Consecrated Life]

Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved". He made no moral qualification regarding the person administering the baptism

So the having the ritual administered by a child molesting apostle of hell would be okay with the Jesus that you know ?
Interesting.

The Jesus that I know would rather be Baptizing the animal with sea water.

Mat 18:6
"But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

 

[Hopeful]

Excellent post! I especially like the last paragraph. Some people simply cannot accept the baptism is a ritual signifying burial of the old, sinful man/woman and the rebirth as a new creation in Christ. If water baptism saved anyone, then belief in Jesus Christ as Savior is unnecessary.

Maybe that is why Peter enclosed the middle part of 1 Peter 3:21 in parenthesis..."The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
When read without the parenthesized part it is..."The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, without the resurrection, would be a bath, a cleaning of the skin.
But with the resurrection, we can be raised from the grave/water with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
Thanks be to God.
That is the scripture that convinced me to become a Christian.

 

[jaybo]

Maybe that is why Peter enclosed the middle part of 1 Peter 3:21 in parenthesis..."The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
When read without the parenthesized part it is..."The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, without the resurrection, would be a bath, a cleaning of the skin.
But with the resurrection, we can be raised from the grave/water with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
Thanks be to God.
That is the scripture that convinced me to become a Christian.

Well, I'm glad that you became a Christian! However...

You are mistaking the use of parentheses in the King James translation as actual Scripture. Koine Greek had no punctuation! It was added by the translators. Secondly, the King James is a translation, not the original document.

Here is a verse that explains baptism as a ritual statement: "Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may live a new life." Romans 6:4 NET

Here are the verses that I believe best explain salvation: "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:7-9 NET

Notice that one is saved through faith, not through any "works" (including baptism). Secondly, and most important, it is a gift of God". It is entirely His doing.

Being submerged in water doesn't save anyone. If it is accompanied by a statement of belief, fine, but it is the statement of belief that saves, not the ritual. Noah was saved because of his faith; he trusted God (who destroyed almost all life through water!)

 

[jaybo]

If submersion in water achieved salvation, then does that mean that everyone who takes a bath in a tub, in a lake, or in the ocean is saved? Of course not; it's ludicrous! So there must be something more than that...

One must first believe that s/he is a sinner in need of salvation. Then s/he must state that is the case and believe that Christ died for him/her. It can be attested by a symbolic burial of the sinful person in water, and the emergence into a new life in Christ, but that is not what saves a person. Without the person believing that they need to be reborn as a new creation in Christ, baptism is just an empty ritual.

John 3:16-18, "For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world should be saved through him. The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God."

BTW, notice the lack of mention of the baptism ritual as a requirement for salvation.

This discussion also negates the ritual of sprinkling infants with water that supposedly saves them. An infant cannot understand that s/he is a sinner in need of salvation. But that is another subject...

 

[Runmyramble]

It's water baptism. He equates it with the washing of the body.

Read the context...really slow

In my thoughts I do not see water baptism....
It's being identified with Christ through faith
It's not a [my words] a ritual washing ..
that takes place on the outside. (That's already eradicated in the text....

The ark was the PREFIGURED Baptism..
Those In the ark ....went through what the ark did. Yet they didnt face the wrath head on the ark did....But because they were in the ark they could Identify with it.

The Baptism...in my thought can be one or two things because of continuity..
First The saving, and then the continual saving.

Yet this is how your conscience is clear and continually made clear before God.

God gives us a new heart/Spirit...."poured out abundantly" Our Spirit is awaken by repentance and faith toward God...and when we walk in the newness of life our sins our continually forgiven because we are being immersed in the presence of God, "beyond the veil"

We then are being renewed day by day while our outter man is perishing.

Then, to be born of water and of Spirit is baptism(immersed) into the one that came by water and Spirit.

These are my thoughts on the subject..And I'm thankful for all who joined in the discussion.....

 

[Butch5]

Read the context...really slow

In my thoughts I do not see water baptism....
It's being identified with Christ through faith
It's not a [my words] a ritual washing ..
that takes place on the outside. (That's already eradicated in the text....

The ark was the PREFIGURED Baptism..
Those In the ark ....went through what the ark did. Yet they didnt face the wrath head on the ark did....But because they were in the ark they could Identify with it.

The Baptism...in my thought can be one or two things because of continuity..
First The saving, and then the continual saving.

Yet this is how your conscience is clear and continually made clear before God.

God gives us a new heart/Spirit...."poured out abundantly" Our Spirit is awaken by repentance and faith toward God...and when we walk in the newness of life our sins our continually forgiven because we are being immersed in the presence of God, "beyond the veil"

We then are being renewed day by day while our outter man is perishing.

Then, to be born of water and of Spirit is baptism(immersed) into the one that came by water and Spirit.

These are my thoughts on the subject..And I'm thankful for all who joined in the discussion.....

I have read it, many times. Peter says they were saved "by" the water. The Greek word translated "by" is "dia". It literally mean through or by way of. It denotes instrumentality. In other words the water was the instrament through which Noah was saved. So,he wasn't saved from the water; the water saved him from setting else. What? He was saved from a perverse and wicked people. It was the water that saved him. He cparss that to the water of baptism and indicates it saves the believer. If we look through the New Testenent we find other passages that also equate salvation with baptism. For instance, Paul's words to Titus.

Titus 3:4–5 (KJV 1900): 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[Consecrated Life]

Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved". He made no moral qualification regarding the person administering the baptism

Knowing that Jesus reserved some of His harshest condemnatory language for religious hypocrisy it astounds me to hear that there are Christians who believe that Christ would arrange a person's salvation completely acceptable to an immoral wolf in sheep's clothing, non-believing, child sex criminal fulfilling a required ritual .
The Christ I know is Almighty, and as such His Almighty Word alone contains all the Divine Authority needed.


Mat 23:27
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

 

[Runmyramble]

I have read it, many times. Peter says they were saved "by" the water. The Greek word translated "by" is "dia". It literally mean through or by way of. It denotes instrumentality. In other words the water was the instrament through which Noah was saved. So,he wasn't saved from the water; the water saved him from setting else. What? He was saved from a perverse and wicked people. It was the water that saved him. He cparss that to the water of baptism and indicates it saves the believer. If we look through the New Testenent we find other passages that also equate salvation with baptism. For instance, Paul's words to Titus.

Titus 3:4–5 (KJV 1900): 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The washing of regeneration is new life..being quickened by God...as noted..

 

[Runmyramble]

I have read it, many times. Peter says they were saved "by" the water. The Greek word translated "by" is "dia". It literally mean through or by way of. It denotes instrumentality. In other words the water was the instrament through which Noah was saved. So,he wasn't saved from the water; the water saved him from setting else. What? He was saved from a perverse and wicked people. It was the water that saved him. He cparss that to the water of baptism and indicates it saves the believer. If we look through the New Testenent we find other passages that also equate salvation with baptism. For instance, Paul's words to Titus.

Titus 3:4–5 (KJV 1900): 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Also many of the version say through water.....the water was the wrath sent to destroy the earth...the ark....was the answer toward a clear conscience not the water[wrath]

 

[Runmyramble]

The Baptism that saves us now is regeneration...renewed by the spirit of our mind by the Spirit of Christ.

Outward washing, inward washing...
These are the comparisons

Hebrews 10:22
let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

Hebrew 9
Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
HEBREWS 10:2

For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

 

[Runmyramble]

The Baptism that saves us now is regeneration...renewed by the spirit of our mind by the Spirit of Christ.

Outward washing, inward washing...
These are the comparisons

Hebrews 10:22
let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

Hebrew 9
Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
HEBREWS 10:2

For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Matthew 12
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Baptism with/by/of the Holy Spirit is not actually a biblical term.
Being baptised with the Holy Spirit is a metaphor. The noun phrase Baptism with (of/by) the Holy Spirit was a 19th century invention of the Pentecostal movement.

Hello, Mungo.

About the above, you don't believe that what you term the Holy Spirit "falling upon believers" was a baptism according to the early church?

ἐγὼ μὲν ὑμᾶς βαπτίζω ἐν ὕδατι εἰς μετάνοιαν: ὁ δὲ ὀπίσω μου ἐρχόμενος ἰσχυρότερός μού ἐστιν, οὗ οὐκ εἰμὶ ἱκανὸς τὰ ὑποδήματα βαστάσαι: αὐτὸς ὑμᾶς βαπτίσει ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ καὶ πυρί (Matthew 3:11)

He spoke of two different baptisms here. One was in water, the other in fire. This distinguishes two different types of baptism, with two different substances they were baptized IN, correct? The baptism in the Holy Spirit and Fire is not just a metaphor. It is a spiritual reality. The Holy Spirit Himself is Substantive, and the baptism in the Holy Spirit is a tangible and substantive experience as well, is it not?

 

[Butch5]

Also many of the version say through water.....the water was the wrath sent to destroy the earth...the ark....was the answer toward a clear conscience not the water[wrath]

The word answer isn't really a good translation. It's better translated appeal. Baptism is an appeal to God from a good conscience.

 

[Butch5]

The Baptism that saves us now is regeneration...renewed by the spirit of our mind by the Spirit of Christ.

Outward washing, inward washing...
These are the comparisons

Hebrews 10:22
let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

Hebrew 9
Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
HEBREWS 10:2

For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

He speaks of the washing or literally the bath of regeneration and renewing of the Spirit. This is what Jesus indicated when speaking with Nicodemus. He said one must be born or water and the Spirit.