Citing scripture references with no scripture only further proves your false doctrine of your flesh body being born again has no scriptural validation.
JLB
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
What is The Baptism that saves us now?
- Thread starter Runmyramble
- Start date
Citing scripture references with no scripture only further proves your false doctrine of your flesh body being born again has no scriptural validation.
JLB
Runmyramble
Member
I'll respond later to your text.
But here is a question.
Because you sin less does that mean you are sinless?
Yes I believe one can sin less
But I don't believe one is without sin.
One of the keys to me is yes you can tell a person go sin no more...on where her conscience is at. But that does not mean that sin is not in our members otherwise we would not need a new body. And even as we are in our bodies need to grow in grace.
I told my spouse one day that I believe when scripture says God won't put on us more than we can bear...that, that may also mean revealing to us everything that is against him all at once...
So can't say I automatically believe in sinless perfection because we got to go over the the other side. (Our bodies must be changed) and what even that entails I am not sure. (Character, emotions, how we think..etc)
What is the point of doing less evil, and not stopping evil altogether ?
Its the same as going on a diet and then forgetting it, and eating whatever you want, it defeats the purpose.
If I did good to nine people and evil to the tenth, does that count as success, or it taints all the good that I thought I had done ?
If I take a car in for a roadworthiness test, and I prepared most things, wont it fail because it had to be road worthy? Why wont man fail God, if we are not worthy of Him, for never doing evil to men in His Holy name ?
Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
1 Thessalonians 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Colossians 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
1 Thessalonians 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
Revelation 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.
1 Corinthians 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
Its the same as going on a diet and then forgetting it, and eating whatever you want, it defeats the purpose.
If I did good to nine people and evil to the tenth, does that count as success, or it taints all the good that I thought I had done ?
If I take a car in for a roadworthiness test, and I prepared most things, wont it fail because it had to be road worthy? Why wont man fail God, if we are not worthy of Him, for never doing evil to men in His Holy name ?
Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
1 Thessalonians 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Colossians 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
1 Thessalonians 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
Revelation 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.
1 Corinthians 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
Finally, everyone that does evil has not seen God, no wonder they prefer their own words and cant speak constantly Gods word of righteousness.
3 John 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
3 John 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
The root of the "sinless perfection" doctrine is the idea that our physical body is born again, and therefore "sinless".
The "newness of life" springs from our born again new nature, where the Spirit dwells.
This is why Paul exhorts us to walk, live our life, according to the Spirit rather than walking according to the sinfull desires of our flesh.
Paul plainly teaches the works of the flesh is sinful because it certainly isn't "sinless".
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:16
Paul goes on to describe the conflict between the Spirit and flesh.
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
Galatians 5:17
The flesh contains sin, and must be crucified daily by the action of the person empowered by the Spirit.
For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13
The message of the demonically inspired "sinless perfection doctrine" is...
The Christian doesn't need to do anything by the Spirit because it was all done at water baptism.
Leaving the confused Christian in the dark about living and overcoming sin by the power of the Spirit.
:drool
JLB
It isn't MY flesh anymore.
Just as Paul wrote..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Gal 2:20)
I have been planted together with Him and been raised from the grave with Him to walk in newness of life.
It is written..."Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" (Rom 6:4-5)
Planted and resurrected with Him.
Praise be to God !
There is still a final resurrection to come.
LovethroughDove
Member
That is a good 1st step.........But....Matthew 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the saving grace. The day you are given the spirit of truth because you believed 100% Jesus is who he said he is and that he resurrected from the dead.
John 6:28-29 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the on he has sent."
Romans 10:9 That is you confess with your mouth."Jesus is Lord," and you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. - scripture goes on to say why he mentions the mouth. Stuff that comes out our mouths comes from deep in our heart. That is why I say, believe 100% without a doubt, not 99.9%
John 14:15-16 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth The command is the answer Jesus gives in John 6:29 Also, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth that is with a believer forever
Ephesians 1:13-14 and you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with the seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession - to the praise of his glory.
I can only speak of what happened to me. I'm not lying and it coincides with what scripture says. I was baptized as a baby. I'm not going to totally criticize water baptism because my intent was clear when I was older and I wanted my children water baptized. I wanted them to go in the right direction. God led me towards him until I got to the point where he gave me revelation of who Jesus
is! This is when he baptized me in Holy Spirit revelation. I am born again with spiritual eyes to see. Before my Holy Spirit baptism I can see where God was with me, but I still wasn't at 100% belief in everything scripture was saying. I have ZERO doubt and I'm pretty sure most people when they are honest with themselves......they cannot say that.Works of the flesh, not the flesh.
That is a guarantee !
So newborn babies are full of sin?
Sounds kinda catholic to me.
And the very idea that someone reborn of God's seed is "full of sin" is appalling.
As one of those freed from sin by the truth of John 8:32-34, I have never heard that "doesn't need to do anything by the Spirit because it was all done at water baptism." doctrine before now.
Were it true, I could give up praying, reading, study, memorization, fasting, giving to the poor, feeding the hungry, clothing the shabby, visiting the seekers, carrying my sign in the sun, distributing fliers, and a lot more.
All things I have been enabled to do by the Spirit.
I am glad I never heard that doctrine before as it would have robbed me of the ability to glorify God with a clean heart and hands for the many years I have walked after the Spirit instead of after the flesh.
Agreed, but really, it is the second step.
As Peter said..."...Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)
Repentance from sin comes first.
Then water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and if both are done we are then promised the gift of the Holy Ghost-baptism of the Holy Spirit.
The baptism of fire will occur at the end of the world.
Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the saving grace. The day you are given the spirit of truth because you believed 100% Jesus is who he said he is and that he resurrected from the dead.
John 6:28-29 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the on he has sent."
Romans 10:9 That is you confess with your mouth."Jesus is Lord," and you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. - scripture goes on to say why he mentions the mouth. Stuff that comes out our mouths comes from deep in our heart. That is why I say, believe 100% without a doubt, not 99.9%
John 14:15-16 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth The command is the answer Jesus gives in John 6:29 Also, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth that is with a believer forever
Ephesians 1:13-14 and you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with the seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession - to the praise of his glory.
I can only speak of what happened to me. I'm not lying and it coincides with what scripture says. I was baptized as a baby. I'm not going to totally criticize water baptism because my intent was clear when I was older and I wanted my children water baptized. I wanted them to go in the right direction. God led me towards him until I got to the point where he gave me revelation of who Jesus
LovethroughDove
Member
Christendom has made water baptism "the baptism" and correct me if I'm wrong........you are focusing on that as "the" baptism that saves?
LovethroughDove
Member
In Acts 2:38 I see it as repent that you didn't really believe 100%
The reason I am sinless is because, among other things, I don't commit any sin.
The other things include a true repentance from sin, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, the gift of the holy Ghost, the death of the old man of sin, rebirth from the seed of God and even more..
Do you believe Jesu when He said..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." John 8:32-34)
The truth can free all of us from committing sin.
We get the new body when we are made new creatures.
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
1 Cor 10:13 is solely about temptations.
It is written..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
"All things are made new".
New mind.
New center of our love.
The law written in our hearts.
Pure body.
Sanctified and justified.
The Holy Ghost residing in your pure temple.
Can you receive all that from God and still want to steal, lie, or kill?
Not if you are walking in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.
To divide up "all that saves" is like saying the best part of a meatball is the lower left corner.
By water baptism, in the name of Jesus Christ, we receive our remission of past sins.
We can kill the old man and be reborn of the seed of God.
We undergo the circumcision done without hands.
Can one be saved with their old sin still on them?
Can one be saved while still walking in the flesh instead of in the Spirit?
Can one be saved with an uncircumcised in heart?
No.
And even water baptism in the name of Jess Christ for the remission of sins is preceded by repentance from sin.
The unrepentant won't be saved so we could say "repentance from sin also saves".
So does grace, faith, hope, and, if I remember right, a few more things are written that "save".
Yes I believe Paul learned to live a crucified life according to the Spirit, as we all must learn. This is evident from Romans 7 where Paul writes about himself learning to live the "newness of life" not according to the flesh, but by the power of the Spirit.
Here are just a few of the many statements Paul wrote to the Church, to water baptized Christians, about this subject.
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12
Paul plainly says to the baptized Christians at Rome, that they are not to allow the sin in their physical body to rule over them.
Why would Paul say such a thing to a water baptized Christian who was bought and paid for, redeemed with the precious blood of Jesus, if their physical body had become "born again" sinless at water baptism?
Example of how Paul learned to do this, to bring his physical body under control, thus not allowing the sin in his body to rule over him, by the power of the Spirit within him, through much fasting and prayer. Praying in tongues more than anyone else.
- I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all;
But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
1 Corinthians 9:27
again
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:16-17
If our flesh, our physical body becomes "born again sinless", then why does Paul teach us that we are not to fulfil the lust of the flesh, the sinful cravings of our physical body?
Paul goes on to describe the " works" or "actions" of our flesh, and why we need to learn to crucify, put to death the sinful deeds of our flesh, by the Spirit.
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21
These are just a few of the sinful practices our physical body desires to gratify itself in doing, if we allow it.
The way we stop our physical body from expressing these lustful cravings is by the Spirit; by the power of self control that only comes as a fruit of the Spirit, as Paul demonstrated...
- But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified. 1 Corinthians 9:27
JLB
We won't be saved without it.
It is written..."He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16)
By faith we receive remission of sins.
Repentance is in the heart, THE SAME AS CIRCUMCISION.
Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Colossians 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
Colossians 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
As just reminded for all, they were saved by the hearing of faith, God purifying their hearts through faith.
Because baptism that saved them was through the Holy Ghost. ( we believe in the name of Jesus Christ when we hear oif His name and believe it is He, that baptizes with the Holy Ghost.)
If we believe instead in water, that is all we shall receive, water, and not the Holy Ghost.
John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Runmyramble
Member
Hi, I think I already stated the places I did not agree....as to the passage "Old things Have Passed away" meaning what we Identify with...For we should no longer Identify with man after the flesh-as the context....
I disagree on the Catholic view of water Baptism...
Yet I do agree on other points you made..take the Catholic ideals out about water Baptism and I think we see things similar..when it comes to the mind set. We do not want to make sin our ally...
We should not be planning to continue on sinning? Which does mean to me one must be intenional... about Identifying with spiritual things or ideals above.
Paul himself is an example...of beating His flesh into submission.
So if we make certain statements like, we will always sin...etc do we not make sin our ally?
So regardless of where we disagree I more excited where we do agree...Surely it encourages me to be intentional about How I move throughout the day. Some- where it is written everything pertaining to life is in Christ....and a double minded man should not think He shall receive anything from the Lord..
And I believe statement as the above: we will sin as long as we are in the body does not move anyone mentally in a place to be intentional about where their focus should be.
But in light of this, it has allowed me to see the Baptism that saves...Identification with Christ..
Partly I can see some connections with what Vernon mcgee said...in the identification with thing of above, of the Kingdom.
Setting your mind on things above not things related to death
Scripture says we are given everything pertaining to life ...location in Christ..
So where is God when we need Him if His Love is in His son? Mmmm?
Why not the power..or the Help because true many fail to take His yoke...be tied with Him....by being intentional...
Does that mean positional justification is wrong or imputed righteousnes is wrong...no for it's taught, but the reason why He imputed righteousness is that we live soberly and righteously in this present world.
Anyway which brings me back to the Baptism that saves us now...One can clearly see it's in the area of identifying with things that give life, are associated with life....which brings us to a renewed heart, and right Spirit.
Spiritual realities are never things you see with the naked eye...like the heart, and emotions...but they manifest themselves on the outside in deeds of the physical body. LIKE WHAT WE SAY AND DO...
"Not the removal of dirt from the skin" could be seen as not things associated with the physical.
I see the pledge or promise of a good conscience as the promised Spirit....
At the same time I can see our commitment to the process in taking on water Baptism...For it's not a ritual cleansing, but immersion into his death.
Regardless ...the commitment stance even, starts with your mind made up...then the outcome of that commitment would be water Baptism.
But no one could make a commitment unless they were touched by God...Which leads me back to my original thought.
That the Baptism that saves is the quickening by the Spirit through the preached word. One has to be born from above (regenerated)If one is given life, it is life that saves.....Jesus said these words I speak to you are Spirit and Life....dont quote me look it up....
He said unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you'll have no part in me...
Another words do His will...that seems like eating again from the tree of life...deep... Which means I better bring my body under submission..."beat it up..lol"
Last edited:
Baptism is by faith alone. ( we are justified by faith without any other deeds)
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
That is a testified and proven fact, that hearts are PURIFIED THROUGH FAITH( not through water or anything else in existence)
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Acts 15: 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
That also is proven this is the fulfilling of Jesus Christ baptizing us with the Holy Ghost.
John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
That baptizing of the Holy Ghost, ( through the hearing of the faith) is being baptized into Jesus Christ, because that is ( through the faith of the operation of God) being buried with Him ( our sins forgiven through baptism) in baptism, to be risen with Him ( quickened through the Spirit which came upon them through their hearts purified in faith alone)
Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
The final thought to have is the actual baptism, always has been the good conscience ( to believe in our heart that God raised Christ from the dead and we shall be saved)
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
But one more thought for those who follow baptism as a religion.
That religion could only be created for strife, because Paul thanks God he did not go around baptizing, and Christ did not send the Apostle to baptize, BUT TO PREACH THE GOSPEL. ( as I am doing against the invented heresy of the forums in this world.)
1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.