What is The Baptism that saves us now?

[jaybo]

1. I agree with that scripture. It says we are saved by grace just as I said in a previous post.
2. It does not say we are saved by faith but through faith.
3. It does not say we are saved by faith alone.
So basically it doesn't say what you claim.

Here is an explanation of that verse from a Catholic apologist that I posted in another thread.
"...to say it another way, my faith - or the faith of my parents if I am baptized as a baby - gets me to a place where God can then save me because of His grace. So, I am saved by God's grace alone, in Baptism. But, it is through faith that I got to the point where God could save me. If I am saved "because of" my faith, then I would be saved the moment I had faith. There would be no need of Baptism since I would have been saved "because of" my faith.

Or, imagine a fountain that is surrounded by a tall fence. The fence has but one gate. No way to get to the fountain except through the gate. The gate has a name on it...Faith. This fountain flows with the waters of eternal life. I have to walk "through" the gate of Faith to get to the fountain of eternal life, but I don't bathe in the waters of the fountain and receive eternal life "because of" the gate."

I have no interest in the opinion of a Catholic apologist. I can think for myself.

 

[Mungo]

I have no interest in the opinion of a Catholic apologist. I can think for myself.

Yes, you just rely on your own infallible opinions.

But still can't find a bscripture that says we are saved by faith alone.

 

[jaybo]

Yes, you just rely on your own infallible opinions.

But still can't find a bscripture that says we are saved by faith alone.

And you rely entirely on the teachings of fallible men: the Catholic clergy. I have given you Scripture previously about salvation, but here it is again. I suggest that you read it (for once)...

John 3:16, "For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life."

Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;"

It is false doctrine to think that you have to add "works" to be saved (or to remain saved). That includes water baptism, confessing your sins to a "father", saying formulaic prayers for absolution, etc.

 

[GodsGrace]

And you rely entirely on the teachings of fallible men: the Catholic clergy. I have given you Scripture previously about salvation, but here it is again. I suggest that you read it (for once)...

John 3:16, "For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life."

Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;"

It is false doctrine to think that you have to add "works" to be saved (or to remain saved). That includes water baptism, confessing your sins to a "father", saying formulaic prayers for absolution, etc.

Works does not mean
baptism
confession
prayers
etc.

In biblical terms works refers to something that we do to try to get ourselves saved SANS God,
or, by not following God's rules.

We can do all the good works we want to to make this world a better place, but if we don't have faith in God we cannot be saved.

I don't think there will be any atheists in heaven - although only God knows for sure.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, you just rely on your own infallible opinions.

But still can't find a bscripture that says we are saved by faith alone.

Faith without works is a dead faith.
Works without faith are dead works.

 

[jaybo]

Works does not mean
baptism
confession
prayers
etc.

In biblical terms works refers to something that we do to try to get ourselves saved SANS God,
or, by not following God's rules.

We can do all the good works we want to to make this world a better place, but if we don't have faith in God we cannot be saved.

I don't think there will be any atheists in heaven - although only God knows for sure.

I disagree. People believe that if they do certain "works", e.g., baptism, confession, prayers, it will somehow gain them "points" with God. I strongly believe that we should be guided by the Holy Spirit in every action that we do because He motivates us to behave that way.

God loves us as His children. He understands that we are fallible and will make mistakes. This applies to our behavior after we are saved. (No "works" before we are saved mean anything.)

 

[Mungo]

And you rely entirely on the teachings of fallible men: the Catholic clergy. I have given you Scripture previously about salvation, but here it is again. I suggest that you read it (for once)...

I rely on the infallible pronouncements of Christ's Church not my personal and fallible interpretation of scripture.

John 3:16, "For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life."

Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;"

It is false doctrine to think that you have to add "works" to be saved (or to remain saved). That includes water baptism, confessing your sins to a "father", saying formulaic prayers for absolution, etc.

I've read them before.
Neither of them say we are saved by faith alone.
Neither of them say we are saved by faith.

P.S. Can I remind you of what you said earlier

I don't take single verses out of context to reinforce a doctrine

But you do!

 

[GodsGrace]

I disagree. People believe that if they do certain "works", e.g., baptism, confession, prayers, it will somehow gain them "points" with God. I strongly believe that we should be guided by the Holy Spirit in every action that we do because He motivates us to behave that way.

God loves us as His children. He understands that we are fallible and will make mistakes. This applies to our behavior after we are saved. (No "works" before we are saved mean anything.)

But you're repeating what I said.
WORKS do not save.

However,
baptism, confession, prayers are NOT works.

They are behavioral patterns that Jesus told us to practice.
Are we not obeying Jesus now??

Jesus said to be baptized.
Matthew 28:19

Jesus said to confess our sins.
John 20:23

Jesus told us to pray, and He told us HOW.
Matthew 6:9-13

 

[jaybo]

I rely on the infallible pronouncements of Christ's Church not my personal and fallible interpretation of scripture.



I've read them before.
Neither of them say we are saved by faith alone.
Neither of them say we are saved by faith.

P.S. Can I remind you of what you said earlier

But you do!

You rely entirely on the "infallible" pronouncements of the Catholic Church. The trouble is Catholic doctrine is not infallible.

It's too bad that you don't understand salvation. You can't be saved by being immersed in water! You must believe!

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1Pet.3:21

A good conscience toward God can only come from following the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This leads to being baptized with his fire,

For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing 1Pet.3:17

Our Savior suffered for well doing and said his followers would also. The Bible also tells us Christ will baptize with the Spirit and fire. Fire purifies,

I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction. Isa.48:10

So if we're suffering some injustice, consider it a blessing. We're being purified, like the Lamb is pure.

 

[jaybo]

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1Pet.3:21

A good conscience toward God can only come from following the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This leads to being baptized with his fire,

For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing 1Pet.3:17

Our Savior suffered for well doing and said his followers would also. The Bible also tells us Christ will baptize with the Spirit and fire. Fire purifies,

I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction. Isa.48:10

So if we're suffering some injustice, consider it a blessing. We're being purified, like the Lamb is pure.

Why do you write in archaic Englyshe? Jesus spoke Aramaic, the Hebrew variant in use during His life. Peter, Paul, John, and others wrote in Koine Greek, the lingua franca of the Mediterranean world.

What are you trying to say?

 

[Hopeful]

I disagree. People believe that if they do certain "works", e.g., baptism, confession, prayers, it will somehow gain them "points" with God. I strongly believe that we should be guided by the Holy Spirit in every action that we do because He motivates us to behave that way.

God loves us as His children. He understands that we are fallible and will make mistakes. This applies to our behavior after we are saved. (No "works" before we are saved mean anything.)

You can't be a child of God without doing somethings.
You must turn from sin.
You must have your past sins washed away in the name of Jesus Christ.
You will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost if your turn from sin is real.
You must kill the old man of sin and be reborn.
You must remain faithful until the day of judgement.
You must love God with all your being.
You must love your neighbor as you love yourself.

The "works" Paul wrote against were of the Law, ie., circumcision, dietary rules, tithing, feast keeping, etc.

 

[heartwashed]

You can't be a child of God without doing somethings.
You must turn from sin.
You must have your past sins washed away in the name of Jesus Christ.
You will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost if your turn from sin is real.
You must kill the old man of sin and be reborn.
You must remain faithful until the day of judgement.
You must love God with all your being.
You must love your neighbor as you love yourself.

All of these things are the certain result of being saved by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

The "works" Paul wrote against were of the Law, ie., circumcision, dietary rules, tithing, feast keeping, etc.

Jesus, in Matthew 7:21-23, shewed us that "prophesying in His name, casting out devils in His name, and doing wonderful works in His name," also don't guarantee salvation.

 

[Mungo]

You rely entirely on the "infallible" pronouncements of the Catholic Church. The trouble is Catholic doctrine is not infallible.

The Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ and it can make infallible pronouncements.

It's too bad that you don't understand salvation. You can't be saved by being immersed in water! You must believe!

I've never claimed you can be saved just by being immersed in water.
You have to be baptised.

And I've been telling you that you have to believe.
As I keep pointing out, Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16).
You need both.
I know you would rather ignore what Jesus said but it is there in scripture.

 

[GodsGrace]

All of these things are the certain result of being saved by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.


Jesus, in Matthew 7:21-23, shewed us that "prophesying in His name, casting out devils in His name, and doing wonderful works in His name," also don't guarantee salvation.

In Matthew 7 Jesus made it clear why some would be denied salvation.

They did all those wonferful works in His name....but they were lawless.
Matthew 7,23

 

[jaybo]

You can't be a child of God without doing somethings.
You must turn from sin.
You must have your past sins washed away in the name of Jesus Christ.
You will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost if your turn from sin is real.
You must kill the old man of sin and be reborn.
You must remain faithful until the day of judgement.
You must love God with all your being.
You must love your neighbor as you love yourself.

The "works" Paul wrote against were of the Law, ie., circumcision, dietary rules, tithing, feast keeping, etc.

"Must" is equivalent to the law!

You are a child of God when He adopts you. Period. Salvation is not by works, and never will be.

You don't earn your salvation!

 

[jaybo]

In Matthew 7 Jesus made it clear why some would be denied salvation.

They did all those wonferful works in His name....but they were lawless.
Matthew 7,23

Matthew 7:21-23, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven—only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many powerful deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!’ "

a) You are adding your own ideas to Scripture
b) You must always keep in mind to whom the Lord is speaking. In this case, it was the Jews who, like yourself, tried to earn their salvation.
c) One receives salvation by faith, not works. Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast."

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Why do you write in archaic Englyshe? Jesus spoke Aramaic, the Hebrew variant in use during His life. Peter, Paul, John, and others wrote in Koine Greek, the lingua franca of the Mediterranean world.

I can't write Aramaic, Hebrew or Greek.

What are you trying to say?

That "communion with Christ" is becoming one with him, being conformed to his image,

In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. Heb.12:4

We see from this how our Lord struggled against sin, against those who sinned against him, spitting on him, abusing him.

because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. 1Pet.4:1

Jesus suffered because of his love and mercy towards vile sinners. If he hadn't shown longsuffering toward them, they would have been judged and executed.

Our King said,

Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; Jn.15:20

So being persecuted for our faith is communion with Jesus.

 

[Hopeful]

All of these things are the certain result of being saved by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

If there are three different things, then none of them is "alone".

Jesus, in Matthew 7:21-23, shewed us that "prophesying in His name, casting out devils in His name, and doing wonderful works in His name," also don't guarantee salvation.

Agreed, if one still commits iniquity/sin.
The faithful don't.

 

[Hopeful]

The Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ and it can make infallible pronouncements.

I disagree, as He said the gates of hell will never prevail against His church.
Every sin shows illustrates the prevailing false god.

I've never claimed you can be saved just by being immersed in water.
You have to be baptised.

And I've been telling you that you have to believe.
As I keep pointing out, Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16).
You need both.
I know you would rather ignore what Jesus said but it is there in scripture.