What is The Baptism that saves us now?

[Mungo]

I hope this helps.

Here in Acts 2:38, we read about Jewish Christians. For them, the order was:
1. Repentance.
2. Water baptism.
3. Reception of the Holy Spirit.

The conversion of Samaritans is recorded in Acts 8:14-17. There we read that the following events occurred:
1. They believed.
2. They were baptized in water.
3. The apostles prayed for them.
4. The apostles laid their hands on them.
5. They received the Holy Spirit.

In Acts 10:44-48 the conversion of Gentiles is in view. Notice the order here:
1. Faith.
2. The indwelling of Christ. (Revelation 3:20).
3. Water baptism.
(The gifts of the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, healing, prophesy etc. are given later to those who seek them)

Acts 19:1-7 A group of believers in Ephesus.
1. They believed.
2. They were rebaptized in water.
3. The Apostle Paul laid his hands on them.
4. They received the Holy Spirit.

"Does this mean there were four ways of salvation in the Book of Acts? Of course not. Salvation was, is, and always will be on the basis of faith in the Lord. But during the transition period recorded in Acts, God chose to vary the events connected with the reception of the Holy Spirit for reasons He knew but did not choose to reveal to us." (Believers Bible)
.

As I pointed out in post #9

Confusion arises because there are two ways we receive the Holy Spirit.
The first way is the interior indwelling, the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit who renews us (Ti 3:5, Rom 6:3-4)
The second way is whe the Holy Spirit "falls" on us -the so-called "Baptism with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 8:15-16;19:6) Acts 12

We receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in water baptism.
It is in baptism with water that we are born again, when the Holy Spirit renews us, when we become part of the body of Christ, when we enter the New Covenant and become children of God.
In Acts 2:38 they were baptised in water and received the Holy Spirit - indwelling.

 

[Consecrated Life]

As I pointed out in post #9


We receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in water baptism.
It is in baptism with water that we are born again, when the Holy Spirit renews us, when we become part of the body of Christ, when we enter the New Covenant and become children of God.
In Acts 2:38 they were baptised in water and received the Holy Spirit - indwelling.

John the Baptist clearly contradicts you.
Declaring the Baptism of the Holy Ghost to be superior, first & foremost in the salvation of the soul.
Having the preeminence & mightier than the former water baptism.
John knew baptism after all .
Mat 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

 

[Mungo]

Acts 19:1-7 A group of believers in Ephesus.
1. They believed.
2. They were rebaptized in water.
3. The Apostle Paul laid his hands on them.
4. They received the Holy Spirit.

This distorts what happened in Ephesus.
Paul came across 12 believers but recognised something was wrong. He asked if they had received the Holy Spirit.
They didn't know about the Holy Spirit.
Paul didn't ask if someone had laid hand on them.
He asked how they had been baptised. So Paul was linking the Holy Spirit to baptism.
When he found they had not been baptised in the name of Jesus (water baptism) but with John's baptism he then ordered water baptism. That was was when they received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Then he laid hands on them for the Holy Spirit to fall on them. That is when they received the gifts such as speaking in tongues and prophesying.

 

[Mungo]

John the Baptist clearly contradicts you.
Declaring the Baptism of the Holy Ghost to be superior, first & foremost in the salvation of the soul.
Having the preeminence & mightier than the former water baptism.
John knew baptism after all .
Mat 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

No it doesn't contradicts me.
John prophesied something different - what happened at Pentecost, to Cornelius and the effects of the laying on of hands by the apostles.
Christian baptism, as commanded by Christ (Mk 16:16) is something different.

 

[Cooper]

Thank You.
Can you name anyone from scripture that you would call a " nominal Christian" ?

Not off the top of my head and neither do I want to concern myself about it. In the main, they were red-hot followers of Jesus, and miracles followed. Then we wonder why not today, when all the time we sit around squabbling, arguing amongst ourselves, and defending false religions.
.

 

[Cooper]

John the Baptist clearly contradicts you.
Declaring the Baptism of the Holy Ghost to be superior, first & foremost in the salvation of the soul.
Having the preeminence & mightier than the former water baptism.
John knew baptism after all .
Mat 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

John the Baptist was right. We all need an anointing of the Holy Spirit.

P.S. Were you talking to someone else in the above post. I have people on ignore and thought you were talking to me. Sorry.

 

[Consecrated Life]

No it doesn't contradicts me.
John prophesied something different - what happened at Pentecost, to Cornelius and the effects of the laying on of hands by the apostles.
Christian baptism, as commanded by Christ (Mk 16:16) is something different.

It certainly does contradict you .
John's one words declaring the Baptism of the Holy Ghost to be " Mightier "
Look up that word " Mightier "
That is the category John places it in.
With no mention of Cornelius, laying on of hands, or Pentecost.
Just Jesus .
Mat 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

 

[jaybo]

As I pointed out in post #9


We receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in water baptism.
It is in baptism with water that we are born again, when the Holy Spirit renews us, when we become part of the body of Christ, when we enter the New Covenant and become children of God.
In Acts 2:38 they were baptised in water and received the Holy Spirit - indwelling.

That is not what the Bible says.

Romans 6:4, "Therefore we were buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life."

You say that "we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in water baptism" and "It is in baptism with water that we are born again, when the Holy Spirit renews us, when we become part of the body of Christ, when we enter the New Covenant and become children of God." If either of these was true then all the people that John baptized in the Jordan River received the Holy Spirit. Clearly that is not the case. This is clearly attested to by Paul. Acts 19:4, "Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus.”

Mark 1:8 clearly shows the difference: "I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." As does John 1:33, "I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ " and Acts 1:4-5, " While staying with them, he ordered them not to leave Jerusalem but to wait there for the promise of the Father. “This,” he said, “is what you have heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” and Acts 8:15-17, "The two went down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit (for as yet the Spirit had not come upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus). Then Peter and John laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit."

Also Acts 19:1-7, "While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul passed through the interior regions and came to Ephesus, where he found some disciples. He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?” They replied, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” Then he said, “Into what, then, were you baptized?” They answered, “Into John’s baptism.” Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied, 7altogether there were about twelve of them."

There are more examples, but these are more than sufficient to that we do not receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in water baptism. It is not in baptism with water that we are born again, as you falsely claim.

 

[Consecrated Life]

John the Baptist was right. We all need an anointing of the Holy Spirit.

P.S. Were you talking to someone else in the above post. I have people on ignore and thought you were talking to me. Sorry.

Yes I was speaking to Mr. Mungo.
And I will add that in saying what he said I don't Believe John meant to say there was no longer any merit in water baptism.
It is still an enduring public expression of the soul possessed by the Divine standard in Christ.
John was saying about it exactly what he was saying about himself .
That he was now the lesser in decrease.
The water Baptism he conducted no longer had the preeminence .
The greater was now the lesser.


John 3:30
He must increase, but I must decrease.

 

[Mungo]

It certainly does contradict you .
John's one words declaring the Baptism of the Holy Ghost to be " Mightier "
Look up that word " Mightier "
That is the category John places it in.
With no mention of Cornelius, laying on of hands, or Pentecost.
Just Jesus .
Mat 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

it does not contradict me.

Read what it says:
“I baptize you with water for repentance,
John baptism is not salvific. It is for repentance. It's Old Covenant. It does not bring us into the New Covenant

but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry;
Yes Jesus is mightier than John The Baptist. Where have I denied that?

he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
That does not say that baptism in Jesus name (baptism with water), which Jesus commanded (Mk 16:16) the apostles to perform (Mt 28:19) is inferior to what JtB was referring to. They have different purposes.

 

[Mungo]

That is not what the Bible says.

Romans 6:4, "Therefore we were buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life."

You say that "we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in water baptism" and "It is in baptism with water that we are born again, when the Holy Spirit renews us, when we become part of the body of Christ, when we enter the New Covenant and become children of God." If either of these was true then all the people that John baptized in the Jordan River received the Holy Spirit. Clearly that is not the case. This is clearly attested to by Paul. Acts 19:4, "Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus.”

John's baptism was not the same as Baptism in Jesus name just because they both used water.
Paul clearly differentiates them - Acts 1:1-7

Mark 1:8 clearly shows the difference: "I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." As does John 1:33, "I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ " and Acts 1:4-5, " While staying with them, he ordered them not to leave Jerusalem but to wait there for the promise of the Father. “This,” he said, “is what you have heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” and Acts 8:15-17, "The two went down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit (for as yet the Spirit had not come upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus). Then Peter and John laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit."

Yes, but that is a different action and purpose to Baptism in Jesus name. You are coinfusing the two

Also Acts 19:1-7, "While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul passed through the interior regions and came to Ephesus, where he found some disciples. He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?” They replied, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” Then he said, “Into what, then, were you baptized?” They answered, “Into John’s baptism.” Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied, 7altogether there were about twelve of them."

Yes, you see - Baptism is Jesus name (or in in the name of the Lord Jesus is not the same as John's baptism

There are more examples, but these are more than sufficient to that we do not receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in water baptism. It is not in baptism with water that we are born again, as you falsely claim.

It is in baptism in water - in Jesus name - using the words that Jesus gave us in Mt 28:19 that we are born again, brought into the Church, into the New Covenant. It is then that we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

When Peter and John laid hands on the people in Samaria and Paul laid hands on the men at Ephesus the Holy Spirit came upon the not within them - as it did at Pentecost (Acts 2:3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each one of them), and upon Cornelius (Acts 10:44 the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.)

 

[Mungo]

jaybo
My reference in the post above should be Acts 19:1-7 not Acts 1:1-7

 

[Cooper]

Yes I was speaking to Mr. Mungo.
And I will add that in saying what he said I don't Believe John meant to say there was no longer any merit in water baptism.
It is still an enduring public expression of the soul possessed by the Divine standard in Christ.
John was saying about it exactly what he was saying about himself .
That he was now the lesser in decrease.
The water Baptism he conducted no longer had the preeminence .
The greater was now the lesser.


John 3:30
He must increase, but I must decrease.

Just a few pointers about John chapter three:
John 3:27 John answered saying, “No one can receive anything unless it is given him from above.
We are saved from our sins during our own lifetime and not from the foundation of the earth. Salvation is made possible by the Saviour of the World, Jesus Christ, and like all of God’s gifts, we should receive it with gratitude.

John 3:28 You yourselves bear witness to me that I said, “I am not the Christ,” but I am the one sent before Him.”
In this verse, John the Baptist reminds the disciples he was not the Christ but was sent to prepare the way for Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world.

John 3:29 John speaks of Jesus as the bridegroom and himself as the one who stays by his side, like the Best Man at a wedding and goes on to say in verse 30 It is ordained that He must increase and that I must decrease, (as you say) Jesus is pre-eminent in all things.

In this chapter, there are three ‘musts’.
1. You must be born again. Verse 7.

2. The Son of man must be lifted up. Verse 14.

3. Jesus must increase, but the saints, if that is what we are, must decrease. Verse 30.
.

 

[DJT_47]

I hope this helps.

Here in Acts 2:38, we read about Jewish Christians. For them, the order was:
1. Repentance.
2. Water baptism.
3. Reception of the Holy Spirit.

The conversion of Samaritans is recorded in Acts 8:14-17. There we read that the following events occurred:
1. They believed.
2. They were baptized in water.
3. The apostles prayed for them.
4. The apostles laid their hands on them.
5. They received the Holy Spirit.

In Acts 10:44-48 the conversion of Gentiles is in view. Notice the order here:
1. Faith.
2. The indwelling of Christ. (Revelation 3:20).
3. Water baptism.
(The gifts of the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, healing, prophesy etc. are given later to those who seek them)

Acts 19:1-7 A group of believers in Ephesus.
1. They believed.
2. They were rebaptized in water.
3. The Apostle Paul laid his hands on them.
4. They received the Holy Spirit.

"Does this mean there were four ways of salvation in the Book of Acts? Of course not. Salvation was, is, and always will be on the basis of faith in the Lord. But during the transition period recorded in Acts, God chose to vary the events connected with the reception of the Holy Spirit for reasons He knew but did not choose to reveal to us." (Believers Bible)
.

As I recently pointed out to someone else here, don't confuse the Holy Ghost or Spirit with the gifts of the Spirit as most do which skews their thinking and logic. Read carefully what Acts 2:38 says.
"38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

The above scripture says "ye shall receive the GIFT of the Holy Ghost", gift being singular. It DOESN'T say GIFTS (plural). The gift of the Holy Ghost is the Holy Ghost (Spirit) itself, not one if the various gifts administered by or through the Spirit, namely, those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10. All those baptized as per Acts 2:38 receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, the indwelling of it if you've been baptized into the body if Christ. The "gifts" of the spirit, those of a miraculous nature, gave ceased per 1 Cor 13:8, and were present as the result of the laying on of the apostle's hands as noted in Acts 8:18. Neither rhe requirements nor their order change nor have changed over the years.

One must:
1. Believe and have faith.
2. Confess belief as did the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8, consistent with Romans 10:9
3. Repent as were the Jews told to do on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2
4. Be immersed in water (baptized), for the remission of sins also per Acts 2:38.

 

[Cooper]

As I recently pointed out to someone else here, don't confuse the Holy Ghost or Spirit with the gifts of the Spirit as most do which skews their thinking and logic. Read carefully what Acts 2:38 says.
"38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

The above scripture says "ye shall receive the GIFT of the Holy Ghost", gift being singular. It DOESN'T say GIFTS (plural). The gift of the Holy Ghost is the Holy Ghost (Spirit) itself, not one if the various gifts administered by or through the Spirit, namely, those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10. All those baptized as per Acts 2:38 receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, the indwelling of it if you've been baptized into the body if Christ. The "gifts" of the spirit, those of a miraculous nature, gave ceased per 1 Cor 13:8, and were present as the result of the laying on of the apostle's hands as noted in Acts 8:18. Neither rhe requirements nor their order change nor have changed over the years.

One must:
1. Believe and have faith.
2. Confess belief as did the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8, consistent with Romans 10:9
3. Repent as were the Jews told to do on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2
4. Be immersed in water (baptized), for the remission of sins also per Acts 2:38.

Okay. So you ignore Acts
https://christianforums.net/threads/what-is-the-baptism-that-saves-us-now.91910/page-54#post-1730213

and anyone with an ounce of sense would know the GIFTS, prophecy, healing etc. of the Holy Spirit are not the PERSON of the Holy Spirit.
.

 

[jaybo]

As I recently pointed out to someone else here, don't confuse the Holy Ghost or Spirit with the gifts of the Spirit as most do which skews their thinking and logic. Read carefully what Acts 2:38 says.
"38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

The above scripture says "ye shall receive the GIFT of the Holy Ghost", gift being singular. It DOESN'T say GIFTS (plural). The gift of the Holy Ghost is the Holy Ghost (Spirit) itself, not one if the various gifts administered by or through the Spirit, namely, those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10. All those baptized as per Acts 2:38 receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, the indwelling of it if you've been baptized into the body if Christ. The "gifts" of the spirit, those of a miraculous nature, gave ceased per 1 Cor 13:8, and were present as the result of the laying on of the apostle's hands as noted in Acts 8:18. Neither rhe requirements nor their order change nor have changed over the years.

One must:
1. Believe and have faith.
2. Confess belief as did the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8, consistent with Romans 10:9
3. Repent as were the Jews told to do on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2
4. Be immersed in water (baptized), for the remission of sins also per Acts 2:38.

a) When one receives the gift of the Spirit, it is singular.
b) After one has received the gift of the Spirit, the Spirit himself gives gifts (plural).
c) The gifts of the Spirit have not ceased. Taking a single verse (1 Corinthians 13:8) and misinterpreting it is the cause of your misunderstanding. Here it is in context. (Pay attention to the verb tenses).

"Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues (future tense), they will cease (future tense); as for knowledge, it will come to an end (future tense). For we know only in part (present tense), and we prophesy only in part (present tense), but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. (future tense) When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. For now we see only a reflection, as in a mirror (present tense), but then we will see face to face. (future tense) Now I know only in part (present tense); then I will know fully (future tense), even as I have been fully known. And now faith, hope, and love remain (present tense), these three, and the greatest of these is love." 1 Corinthians 13:8-13.

Clearly the gifts of the Spirit are active and will remain so until they are no longer needed.

P.S. Your four points are putting people under the law. A person is saved by accepting Christ as their Savior. It is the gift of God. Confession is not necessary; that is a "work". Repentance is also not necessary to be saved; that is also a "work". Baptism (a "work") is also not necessary. All these are clearly explained in John 3:16 and Ephesians 2:8-9.

Putting people under a new law in order to be saved is contrary to the New Covenant.

 

[DJT_47]

a) When one receives the gift of the Spirit, it is singular.
b) After one has received the gift of the Spirit, the Spirit himself gives gifts (plural).
c) The gifts of the Spirit have not ceased. Taking a single verse (1 Corinthians 13:8) and misinterpreting it is the cause of your misunderstanding. Here it is in context. (Pay attention to the verb tenses).

"Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues (future tense), they will cease (future tense); as for knowledge, it will come to an end (future tense). For we know only in part (present tense), and we prophesy only in part (present tense), but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. (future tense) When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. For now we see only a reflection, as in a mirror (present tense), but then we will see face to face. (future tense) Now I know only in part (present tense); then I will know fully (future tense), even as I have been fully known. And now faith, hope, and love remain (present tense), these three, and the greatest of these is love." 1 Corinthians 13:8-13.

Clearly the gifts of the Spirit are active and will remain so until they are no longer needed.

P.S. Your four points are putting people under the law. A person is saved by accepting Christ as their Savior. It is the gift of God. Confession is not necessary; that is a "work". Repentance is also not necessary to be saved; that is also a "work". Baptism (a "work") is also not necessary. All these are clearly explained in John 3:16 and Ephesians 2:8-9.

Putting people under a new law in order to be saved is contrary to the New Covenant.

It was future tense to the recipients of the letter. Who was the letter addressed to and what were the issues of the day? The miraculous gifts have long ago ceased as are the apostles long gone by who's hands they were made available and active. It's funny that no one e raises people from the dead anymore, or heals miraculously in front of your eyes, or truly prophesies, etc. The only thing done today is incoherent gibberish that no one can understand, is unscriptural, and can't easily be debunked.

 

[jaybo]

It was future tense to the recipients of the letter. Who was the letter addressed to and what were the issues of the day? The miraculous gifts have long ago ceased as are the apostles long gone by who's hands they were made available and active. It's funny that no one e raises people from the dead anymore, or heals miraculously in front of your eyes, or truly prophesies, etc. The only thing done today is incoherent gibberish that no one can understand, is unscriptural, and can't easily be debunked.

1 Corinthians 13:12-13, "For now [the present] we see only a reflection, as in a mirror, but then [the future] we will see face to face. Now I know only in part [the present]; then [the future] I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. And now [the present] faith, hope, and love remain, these three, and the greatest of these is love.

You are clearly confused about the present time and the future.

The gifts have most definitely not ceased. => I was healed in the hospital via a pastor's prayer <= Your unbelief is sad!

The things done today ... the gifts of the Spirit ... can't easily be debunked. Even by a cynic like you.

 

[DJT_47]

1 Corinthians 13:12-13, "For now [the present] we see only a reflection, as in a mirror, but then [the future] we will see face to face. Now I know only in part [the present]; then [the future] I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. And now [the present] faith, hope, and love remain, these three, and the greatest of these is love.

You are clearly confused about the present time and the future.

The gifts have most definitely not ceased. => I was healed in the hospital via a pastor's prayer <= Your unbelief is sad!

The things done today ... the gifts of the Spirit ... can't easily be debunked. Even by a cynic like you.

Prayer is not a miraculous gift of the spirit

 

[jaybo]

Prayer is not a miraculous gift of the spirit

Healing is a gift of the Spirit. The pastor prayed "Jesus, heal this man" and I was instantly healed by Jesus and filled with the Holy Spirit. Miraculous!