What is The Baptism that saves us now?

[DJT_47]

Healing is a gift of the Spirit. The pastor prayed "Jesus, heal this man" and I was instantly healed by Jesus and filled with the Holy Spirit. Miraculous!

The miraculous gifts of the Spirit are those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10 and were only available by the laying on of the apostle's hands who are dead.

 

[jaybo]

The miraculous gifts of the Spirit are those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10 and were only available by the laying on of the apostle's hands who are dead.

More unScriptural false nonsense!

 

[Hopeful]

The miraculous gifts of the Spirit are those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10 and were only available by the laying on of the apostle's hands who are dead.

Not necessarily.
Do you have some scripture making that known?
Paul did say we were to covet those gifts.
If they are only dispensable by apostles, why would he say that?
Wouldn't he just say..."Ask an apostle for your gifts." ?
Frankly speaking, the Holy Ghost can give the gifts to any one He wants to.

 

[DJT_47]

Not necessarily.
Do you have some scripture making that known?
Paul did say we were to covet those gifts.
If they are only dispensable by apostles, why would he say that?
Wouldn't he just say..."Ask an apostle for your gifts." ?
Frankly speaking, the Holy Ghost can give the gifts to any one He wants to.

First who was Paul talking to? Us now, or people 2k years ago that relied on the gifts to build the fledgling church and edify it? We don't have those issues now and have the bible, the complete word of God to guide us and the church and word have spread across the globe.

The miraculous manifestation of miracles done as recorded in the NT were done through the apostles and through those upon which they laid their hands on. Such as Stephen. See Acts 5:12, Acts 6:5-8, Acts 8:18.

And read John the Baptists words in Luke 3:16, re, "baptism with fire", and Jesus words in Luke 24:49 where he told his apostles to tarry in Jerusalem until they received power from on high. Then read Acts 2 slowly and carefully. They, the apostles, rec'd the power which also fulfilled the prophesy of Joel.

 

[Hopeful]

First who was Paul talking to? Us now, or people 2k years ago that relied on the gifts to build the fledgling church and edify it? We don't have those issues now and have the bible, the complete word of God to guide us and the church and word have spread across the globe.

Both, thanks to the mercy and grace of God.

The miraculous manifestation of miracles done as recorded in the NT were done through the apostles and through those upon which they laid their hands on. Such as Stephen. See Acts 5:12, Acts 6:5-8, Acts 8:18.

The bible can hardly publish the miracles done to the glory of God after Luke finished his writings, or after the bible's compilation.
You have never seen a miracle?

And read John the Baptists words in Luke 3:16, re, "baptism with fire", and Jesus words in Luke 24:49 where he told his apostles to tarry in Jerusalem until they received power from on high. Then read Acts 2 slowly and carefully. They, the apostles, rec'd the power which also fulfilled the prophesy of Joel.

The baptism of fire is the end of the world, as John makes clear after he mentioned it.
"Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (Matt 3:12)

 

[Johann!@#]

Faith is necessary for salvation but not faith alone.
Nowhere does scripture say we are saved by faith alone.
Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved"

All this "scripture would have said" is speculation.

Baptism in water is not a work. It is an act of obedience and submission.
When Paul refers to works he means "works of the law", for example Rom 3:20,28 & Gal 2:16.

After speaking with Nicodemus about being born again with water Jesus goes and himself baptises people.
After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized. (Jn 3:22)

Now a discussion arose between John’s disciples and a Jew over purifying. And they came to John, and said to him, “Rabbi, he who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you bore witness, here he is, baptizing, and all are going to him.” (Jn 3:25-26)
It couldn't be much clearer that Jesus baptised.

Just one question-would you say water baptism justify and regenerate?

 

[Johann!@#]

Nowhere in Acts 2:14-41 and Acts 8:35-38 does it say they were Spiritually born again after being immersed in water. It says they heard the word preached to them and then they received Jesus as Lord and Savior before they were immersed in water. As far as the 3000 it never says they were baptized in water, but that they were baptized with the Baptism of Christ for the receiving of the holy Spirit. Water immersion and the Baptism of Christ are two different things as one saves us and the other only being an outward appearance. Water can not save us.

We need to think on our feet.

Home - staycatholic.com

Welcome It is not uncommon for Catholics to have their faith questioned by individuals who claim their Church is unbiblical. StayCatholic.com features a number of articles and essays that provide you with all of the biblical and patristic evidence to refute such arguments. Most of the articles...

staycatholic.com

 

[donadams]

Just one question-would you say water baptism justify and regenerate?

Yes! Cos of sanctifying grace that washes away all sin!
Acts 22:16
Gal 3;27
Titus 3:5
1 pet 3:20-21

Thanks

 

[donadams]

Not necessarily.
Do you have some scripture making that known?
Paul did say we were to covet those gifts.
If they are only dispensable by apostles, why would he say that?
Wouldn't he just say..."Ask an apostle for your gifts." ?
Frankly speaking, the Holy Ghost can give the gifts to any one He wants to.

Yes, but the HS only operates in the holy church and by the authority set up by Christ to govern the church and to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation Matt 28:19
Thanks

 

[donadams]

Scripture doesn't say it, but it is there for those who have eyes to see it. The thief that was crucified beside Jesus wasn't baptized, so do you think He was not saved because of no baptism? Jesus said He would.

So baptism or no baptizm will not keep anyone out of Heaven on it's own. Is Baptism better than no Baptism? Of course it is! It is at least, your statement to the world that....Christ Jesus is my God and Savior. It is a light unto the world of hope. So let your light shine before men.

How do you know if he was baptized or not?

Baptism is the initiation into the new covenant Mk 16:16 and it’s not in effect till the death of the savior heb 9:16

I know! How convenient! Works for me!

 

[donadams]

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John the Baptist - immersion in water after they repented as a symbol of being made clean. It was not the literal water that saved anyone, but prepared them for the way of the Lord to come.

Baptism of Christ Jesus - Baptism of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and fire (fire means empowerment)

No one can forbid another from being immersed in water as it is only an outward appearance that you have repented and accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

Either one believes in what has already been written, especially in Ephesians 2:8-9, or they believe no of the word of God as Jesus has made it pretty clear how we are saved.

Baptism is included in what we must believe! Mk 16:16 Matt 28:19 Jn 3:5 & Jn 3:22 they went to the river (water) and they baptized!

Thanks

 

[donadams]

Baptism is a public declaration made by someone who has in faith accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour.
.

Scripture that say’s baptism is only a meaningless public witness?

Thanks

 

[Mungo]

Just one question-would you say water baptism justify and regenerate?

I would put it like this. It is in water Baptism that God justifies and regenerates us.

 

[GodsGrace]

I would put it like this. It is in water Baptism that God justifies and regenerates us.

Mungo, and donadams

I just want to say that the Early Fathers baptized for a very different and very beautiful reason.
Then Augustine came along and ruined everything.
So here we are, having this discussion.

I'd say that if one changes his direction and walks toward God, and died the next day, he'd be saved.
Maybe that person didn't know about having to be baptized....God is a just God.

OR, if he DID know about baptism, he certainly was baptized by desire.


Thus desire for baptism brings justification and justification makes one an heir of life everlasting. If one dies in a state of justification, one will inherit eternal life. Those who die with baptism of desire are saved. Period.
source: Dr. Scott Hahn

Baptism of Desire

Recent doctrinal development has made clear that it is possible for one to receive baptism of desire by an implicit desire. This is the principle that makes it possible for non-Christians to be saved.

www.catholic.com

 

[for_his_glory]

Baptism is included in what we must believe! Mk 16:16 Matt 28:19 Jn 3:5 & Jn 3:22 they went to the river (water) and they baptized!

Thanks

There are two types of baptism. This site explains it better than I can.

Baptism into Christ (HTML)

Article by Dr. Jack Arnold from Biblical Perspectives Volume 1, Number 31

thirdmill.org

 

[Mungo]

Mungo, and donadams

I just want to say that the Early Fathers baptized for a very different and very beautiful reason.
Then Augustine came along and ruined everything.
So here we are, having this discussion.

I'd say that if one changes his direction and walks toward God, and died the next day, he'd be saved.
Maybe that person didn't know about having to be baptized....God is a just God.

OR, if he DID know about baptism, he certainly was baptized by desire.


Thus desire for baptism brings justification and justification makes one an heir of life everlasting. If one dies in a state of justification, one will inherit eternal life. Those who die with baptism of desire are saved. Period.
source: Dr. Scott Hahn

Baptism of Desire

Recent doctrinal development has made clear that it is possible for one to receive baptism of desire by an implicit desire. This is the principle that makes it possible for non-Christians to be saved.

www.catholic.com

What was the reason that the Early Fathers baptised that Augustine changed?

 

[TonyChanYT]

Hi everyone...and to all my fellow Christian's in Christ...
I love the passage in 1 peter 3
And I have an Ideal of what I believe..
But I want to know first your thoughts...

NIV 1 Peter 3:

20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

symbolizes
ἀντίτυπον (antitypon)
Adjective - Nominative Neuter Singular
Strong's 499: Neuter of a compound of anti and tupos; corresponding, i.e. A representative, counterpart.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

1. a thing formed after some pattern (τύπος (which see 4 a.)) (German Abbild): Hebrews 9:24 (R. V. like in pattern).
2. "a thing resembling another, its counterpart;

Berean Literal Bible:

20at one time having disobeyed, when the longsuffering of God was waiting in the days of Noah, of the ark being prepared, in which a few—that is, eight souls—were saved through water, 21 which also prefigures the baptism now saving you, not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the demand of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

I see the parallel:

The flood water floated Noah's ark.
Baptism water saves Christians.

Baptism is the antitype or true type because it cleanses our inside. True baptism isn't superficial or just ritualistic.

Was Peter referring to the ritualistic baptism?

Barnes said no:

The points of resemblance in the two cases seem to have been these:
(1) There was salvation in both; Noah was saved from death, and we are saved from hell.
(2) water is employed in both cases - in the case of Noah to uphold the ark; in ours to be a symbol of our purification.

Water baptism is a symbol.

(3) the water in both cases is connected with salvation: in the case of Noah by sustaining the ark; in ours by being a symbol of salvation, of purity, of cleansing, of that by which we may be brought to God.
The meaning of this part of the verse, therefore, may be thus expressed: "Noah and his family were saved by water, the antitype to which (to wit, that which in important respects corresponds to that) baptism (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, or the mere application of material water, but that purifying of the heart of which it is the appropriate emblem) now saves us."

not the superficial act of ritualistic baptism

Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh - Not a mere external washing, however solemnly done. No outward ablution or purifying saves us, but that which pertains to the conscience. This important clause is thrown in to guard the statement from the abuse to which it would otherwise be liable, the supposition that baptism has of itself a purifying and saving power. To guard against this, the apostle expressly declares that he means much more than a mere outward application of water.

 

[for_his_glory]

Baptism is included in what we must believe! Mk 16:16 Matt 28:19 Jn 3:5 & Jn 3:22 they went to the river (water) and they baptized!

Thanks

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

If you compare John 3:5 with 1 John 5:5-8 water means word as in the word being the living water (John 4:9-15) as in the Father, the word (living water Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. The three that bear witness is Holy Spirit, Gods living word, and the blood of Jesus who made atonement for sin that we can be reconciled back to the Father.

Everything from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 is all Gods word and Holy Spirit dwelling in or falling on and come to Earth in the form of a man in Christ Jesus. It's all Gods grace freely given to all who will believe in that faith that is Christ Jesus as He spoke Gods word (John 12:44-50 living water) and the Prophets and Apostles wrote and testified of what Jesus taught verbally.

It's Gods word that we are made righteous through Him, sanctified, justified and made Holy before Him. No dirty river water can save us, but is only an outward appearance to others that we have been washed clean (made righteous before God) by the blood of the Lamb and the renewing through the Holy Spirit.

The Jerusalem Bible
1 John 5:6 Jesus Christ who came by water and blood, not with water only, but with water and blood with the Spirit as another witness since the Spirit is truth 7 so that there are three witnesses, 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood and all three of them agree

KJV
1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Literal water has nothing to do with salvation as Jesus came by the foretold word of the Prophets, sent by the Father, and signified by the Holy Spirit that lighted upon Him during John's water baptism for the remission of sins, Matthew 3:11-17. Three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, the water (word) and the blood. Three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost.

The more I think about "born again" Nicodemus had no understanding as even many today would ask the same question "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

Jesus goes on to tell him "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Paul understood it was not by water baptism (BTW baptism is not mentioned in John 3:5), but by the word of God that we are sanctified, which means set apart and made holy. We being the church of God have been made clean by His word as we are washed in the blood of the Lamb.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Again Paul and also Peter gives us the understanding that being born again/born from above is not by actual water which would be a work of our own righteousness, but regeneration (new Spiritual life) that comes by God's mercy through His spoken word and Spirit (Holy Spirit).

IMO it doesn't matter if we say born again or born from above, but that we understand it is by God's grace through faith, which is Christ Jesus and His finished works on the cross that we are cleansed by the blood of the Lamb and our spirit renewed by the very Spirit of God, (Holy Spirit)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Per the conversation Nicodemus and Jesus were discussing in John 3:9, 10 here are a few more OT verses that parallel being born again that Nicodemus should have known, but probably not emphasized as much since Jesus had to explain it to him.

1 Samuel 10:6 And the spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Job 25: 4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: 20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

There are around 1526 instances of living water in the Bible. Here are some verses on living water being the word. John 4:4-26; 7:37-39; 12:44-50; Ephesians 5:26; 1 John 5:5-8; Jeremiah 17:13; Zechariah 14:8, 9; Rev 21:6-8; Ezekiel 47:22

 

[Johann!@#]

Seems this Forum is not very "active"

 

[GodsGrace]

Seems this Forum is not very "active"

You make it more active!